Lots of people who spend time working with livestock on a farm describe a certain acceptance and understanding of death that most modern people have lost.
I don't have any data, but my anecdotal experience is a yes to those questions.
>Are there other ways we can get a sense of how a more healthy acceptance of mortality would manifest?
In concept, yes, I think home family death can also have a similar impact. It is not very common in the US, but 50 years ago, elders would typically die at home with family. There are cultures today, even materially advanced ones, where people spend time with the freshly dead body of loved ones instead of running from it and compartmentalizing it.
It isn't farmers, but oncologists are notably more likely to choose hospice for themselves when it comes to cancer care. It is similar for familiarity with death + end of life decisions.
Of course that case is probably related to knowing the actual probabilities and the suffering involved. Medicine isn't just "drink a potion and be instantly cured or instantly die", it is a long painful process.
I don't know what people are seeing in my questions, but apparently they don't like answering them, because no one has.
I'm trying to understand what people mean by 'detachment from reality' and how such a thing is related to 'understanding of mortality', and how a deeper understanding of mortality and acceptance of death would manifest in ways that can be seen.
If 'acceptance of death' does not actually mean that they are more comfortable talking about death, or allowing people to choose their own deaths, or accepting their loved one's deaths with more ease, then what does it mean? Is it something else? Why can't anyone say what it is?
Why it is so obvious to the people stating that it happens, but no one can explain why the questions I asked are not being answered or are wrong?
If this is come basic conflict of frameworks wherein I am making assumptions that make no sense to the people who are making the assertions I am questioning, then what am I missing here?
> I don't know what people are seeing in my questions, but apparently they don't like answering them
> I'm trying to understand
Wouldn’t people be responding poorly to your questions, because they seem facetious when that’s precisely what people mean? — and obviously so?
Eg, my niece dealt better with pets dying than other kids her age I’ve known since her family regularly slaughters chickens.
> people mean by 'detachment from reality' and how such a thing is related to 'understanding of mortality'
This too is so obvious that people think you’re responding in poor faith — eg, the professional managerial class has destroyed multiple cities by being so detached from reality that they no longer imprison career criminals, resulting in social breakdown not even seen in many third world countries.
That’s why I don’t think it’s Socratic questioning: just you not understanding the basic implications or yourself being unaware of reality.
> no one can explain why the questions I asked are not being answered or are wrong?
I did say why: you come across as arrogant and ignorant by asking seemingly facetious questions about obvious implications — then comparing yourself to Socrates for doing so.
In Japan, some sushi bars keep live fish in tanks that you can order to have served to you as sushi/sashimi.
The chefs butcher and serve the fish right in front of you, and because it was alive merely seconds ago the meat will still be twitching when you get it. If they also serve the rest of the fish as decoration, the fish might still be gasping for oxygen.
Japanese don't really think much of it, they're used to it and acknowledge the fleeting nature of life and that eating something means you are taking another life to sustain your own.
The same environment will likely leave most westerners squeamish or perhaps even gag simply because the west goes out of its way to hide where food comes from, even though that simply is the reality we all live in.
Personally, I enjoy meats respecting and appreciating the fact that the steak or sashimi or whatever in front of me was a live animal at one point just like me. Salads too, those vegetables were (are?) just as alive as I am.
If I were to cook a pork chop in the kitchen of some of my middle eastern relatives they would feel sick and would probably throw out the pan I cooked it with (and me from their house as well).
Isn't this similar to why people unfamiliar with that style of seafood would feel sick -- cultural views on what is and is not normal food -- and not because of their view of mortality?
You're not grasping the point, which I don't necessarily blame you.
Imagine that to cook that pork chop, the chef starts by butchering a live pig. Also imagine that he does that in view of everyone in the restaurant rather than in the "backyard" kitchen let alone a separate butchering facility hundreds of miles away.
That's the sushi chef butchering and serving a live fish he grabbed from the tank behind him.
When you can actually see where your food is coming from and what "food" truly even is, that gives you a better grasp on reality and life.
It's also the true meaning behind the often used joke that goes: "You don't want to see how sausages are made."
I grasp the point just fine, but you haven't convinced me that it is correct.
The issue most people would have with seeing the sausage being made isn't necessarily watching the slaughtering process but with seeing pieces of the animal used for food that they would not want to eat.
I wouldn't want to eat a cockroach regardless of whether I saw it being prepared or not. The point I am making is that 'feeling sick' and not wanting to eat something isn't about being disconnected from the food. Few people would care if you cut off a piece of steak from a hanging slab and grilled it in front of them, but would find it gross to pick up all the little pieces of gristle and organ meat that fell onto the floor, grind it all up, shove it into an intestine, and cook it.
> Few people would care if you cut off a piece of steak from a hanging slab
The analogy here would be watching a live cow get slaughtered and then butchered from scratch in front of you, which I think most Western audiences (more than a few) might not like.
A cow walks into the kitchen, it gets a captive bolt shoved into its brain with a person holding a compressed air tank. Its hide is ripped off and it is cut into two pieces with all of its guts on the ground and the flesh and bones now hang as slabs.
I am asserting that you could do all of that in front of a random assortment of modern Americans, and then cut steaks off of it and grill them and serve them to half of the crowd, and most of those people would not have an problem eating those steaks.
Then if you were to scoop up all the leftover, non-steak bits from the ground with shovels, throw it all into a giant meat grinder and then take the intestines from a pig, remove the feces from them and fill them with the output of the grinder, cook that and serve it to the other half of the crowd, then a statistically larger proportion of that crowd would not want to eat that compared to the ones who ate the steak.
> I am asserting that you could do all of that in front of a random assortment of modern Americans, and then cut steaks off of it and grill them and serve them to half of the crowd, and most of those people would not have an problem eating those steaks.
I am asserting that the majority of western audiences, including Americans, would dislike being present for the slaughtering and butchering portion of the experience you describe.
I'm a 100% sure none of my colleagues would eat the steak if they could see the live cow get killed and skinned first. They wouldn't go to that restaurant to begin with and they'd lose their appetite entirely if they somehow made it there.
I probably also wouldn't want to eat that, but more because that steak will taste bad without being aged properly.
Most audiences wouldn’t like freshly butchered cow - freshly butchered meat is tough and not very flavorful, it needs to be aged to allow it to tenderize and develop.
That the point is being repeated to no effect ironically illustrates how most modern people (westerners?) are detached from reality with regards to food.
In the modern era, most of the things the commons come across have been "sanitized"; we do a really good job of hiding all the unpleasant things. Of course, this means modern day commons have a fairly skewed "sanitized" impression of reality who will get shocked awake if or when they see what is usually hidden (eg: butchering of food animals).
That you insist on contriving one zany situation after another instead of just admitting that people today are detached from reality illustrates my point rather ironically.
Whether it's butchering animals or mining rare earths or whatever else, there's a lot of disturbing facets to reality that most people are blissfully unaware of. Ignorance is bliss.
To be blunt, the way you express yourself on this topic comes off as very "enlightened intellectual." It's clear that you think that your views/assumptions are the correct view and any other view is one held by the "commons"; one which you can change simply by providing the poor stupid commons with your enlightened knowledge.
Recall that this whole thread started with your proposition that seeing live fish prepared in front of someone "will likely leave most westerners squeamish or perhaps even gag simply because the west goes out of its way to hide where food comes from, even though that simply is the reality we all live in." You had no basis for this as far as I can tell, it's just a random musing by you. A number of folks responded disagreeing with you, but you dismissed their anecdotal comments as being wrong because it doesn't comport with your view of the unwashed masses who are, obviously, feeble minded sheep who couldn't possibly cope with the realities of modern food production in an enlightened way like you have whereby you "enjoy meats respecting and appreciating the fact that the steak or sashimi or whatever in front of me was a live animal at one point just like me." How noble of you. Nobody (and I mean this in the figurative sense not the literal sense) is confused that the slab of meat in front of them was at one point alive.
Then you have the audacity to accuse someone of coming up with "zany" situations? You're the one that started the whole zany discussion in the first place with your own zany musings about how "western" "commons" think!
I grew up with my farmer grandpa who was a butcher, and I've seen him butcher lots of animals. I always have and probably always will find tongues & brains disgusting, even though I'm used to seeing how the sausage is made (literally).
Some things just tickle the brain in a bad way. I've killed plenty of fish myself, but I still wouldn't want to eat one that's still moving in my mouth, not because of ickiness or whatever, but just because the concept is unappealing. I don't think this is anywhere near as binary as you make it seem, really.
Plenty of westerners are not as sheltered from their food as you. Have you never gone fishing and watched your catch die? Have you never boiled a live crab or lobster? You've clearly never gone hunting.
Not to mention the millions of Americans working in the livestock and agriculture business who see up close every day how food comes to be.
A significant portion of the American population engages directly with their food and the death process. Citing one gimmicky example of Asian culture where squirmy seafood is part of the show doesn't say anything about the culture of entire nations. That is not how the majority of Japanese consume seafood. It's just as anomalous there. You only know about it because it's unusual enough to get reported.
You can pick your lobster out of the tank and eat it at American restaurants too. Oysters and clams on the half-shell are still alive when we eat them.
>Plenty of westerners are not as sheltered from their food as you. ... You only know about it because it's unusual enough to get reported.
In case you missed it, you're talking to a Japanese.
Some restaurants go a step further by letting the customers literally fish for their dinner out of a pool. Granted those restaurants are a niche, that's their whole selling point to customers looking for something different.
Most sushi bars have a tank holding live fish and other seafood of the day, though. It's a pretty mundane thing.
