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  Go: "I'm a simple language!"
  User uses Go for some time.
  User: "I hate you, you're a simple language!"
Perhaps it's because I'm 50+, I love a simple language.

I feel the "critique" is not very balanced, and I view judgements that are not balanced as weak, as everything in technology is about tradeoffs.

I of course come to a different conclusion: https://www.inkmi.com/blog/why-we-chose-go-over-rust-for-our...






Very common misrepresentation of any critique of Go. "You just don't get simplicity, you got them Java brainwormz"...

There are many examples in the article that point out the annoying inconsistencies in the language, those are the opposite of simplicity.

I love Rob Pike's presentations on Go, some of them were eye-opening to me. However, I just wish that the Go I see in practice would be much closer to the Go language that Go-fans describe in abstract.


The problem is that Go is not designed to be a simple language for it's users, it's designed to be a simple language to implement for it's maintainers.

In my opinion, a simple language should be highly consistent (have a few rules, but which are universal and consistent everywhere). Instead we have a language with weirdnesses, inconsistencies and workarounds all over the place.

A good example is type elision: it's available when declaring arrays, slices and maps, but not for structs. Allowing that would have several benefits in terms of readability, and also allow named parameters via anonymous struct arguments (which would greatly improve the design compared to the ugly workarounds that are currently used).


Scheme is a simple language, Go just hides complexity until it blows up in the worst possible way. (Of course, most reasonable alternatives to Go are even worse from that POV. See Python, Ruby, JS etc.)

Go is not simple, it's easy.

The difference, for example is: Go invents an abstraction just for one use case, and just for the standard library/runtime itself, instead of taking the time to create a universal version of that abstraction. Generics for maps and lists, and tuples for error handling.


> Perhaps it's because I have experience, I love a simple language.

(fixed the statement to focus on your value, not age per se)

I love language ergonomics above all. Python wins. But for runtime bang-for-the-buck, Go wins.


Go is "simple" insofar as you're doing simple things. If you've tried writing a KV store or database (as I have) you'll quickly find yourself wanting slightly more modern language features.

"quickly find yourself wanting slightly more modern language features."

Use the tool that works for you.


Feel free to take a look at any more complicated GoLang code (k8s, gorm, etc) and you'll see that the tool/library you're depending on requires a veritable rats nest of bad practices to work around the Go's inherent limitations.

My opinion on Kubernetes as a yardstick example of Go is this:

This was one of the first large systems developed in Go, not too long after the language hit version 1.0 (ca. 12 years ago). What constituted good Go style and package architecture were not well known at that time even. Given that and hindsight being 20:20, I could easily imagine the internal architecture (not even the public surface) for Kubernetes being a lot different and simpler. The package architecture alone makes me cringe. As a hypothetical counterpoint, I wonder what Kubernetes would have looked like had Dave Cheney (https://dave.cheney.net/) and Rob Pike built it in that era. I think that would have been a better yard stick.

I have a unique appreciation for this first large systems perspective as I co-designed an adjacent product in the cloud native ecosystem at that time (Prometheus). There was no good example to follow when it came to large program structure and design in Go at that time. We were all figuring that out for ourselves — organically.

I think this point about organic evolution of the architecture is important to call out explicitly, because developers often look at an existing structure and essentially mimic it with their additions, changes, and refactors irrespective of whether the structure was correct for the problem it was trying to solve or even good. Given that reality, is it really any wonder that one of the first major pieces of software ended up being this metaphorical mess? And the truth is that's not a language-specific problem: it could have happened with any new language. And taking a legacy system of this age and refactoring is difficult from a social perspective, ignoring the gradient/cost of refactoring that is language-specific. You'll have a lot of people who will oppose structural change just because, so probably a significant refactoring to achieve these goals is just not in the cards.

Had there been so much as something similar to https://google.github.io/styleguide/go at that time (ca. 2012) (it's based on the very spartan https://go.dev/wiki/CodeReviewComments), that would have been tremendously useful and impactful in helping preserve simplicity.


I wish the discourse that Go is a "simple" language would die.

Despite its veneer, once you start writing Go it quickly becomes apparent that it isn't simple. Hidden complexity and footguns are abundant (e.g., https://archive.ph/WcyF4).

It's nevertheless a useful language, and I use it quite a bit, but it's not "simple".


I have no idea why anyone would say it's not simple, it's super-simple. Learning how duck typing works with interfaces and how to use it is perhaps the only hurdle. In my experience, only certain BASIC dialects like VisualBasic are simpler.

I think the sticking point is what people mean when they say simple. To me, and likely to many saying Go isn't simple, simple is not a synonym for easy.

Go is easy, but it is not simple. For example, solving the problem of generics in a generic way from the start so the same problem can be addressed in the same way everywhere, would be simple, but maybe not (as) easy. Contrast that to giving the runtime/standard library a special exception with maps and lists. That's easy, but not simple. People used to literally use code generators or weird UTF-8 characters to fake generics, that's not remotely simple.


This 100%, I was just about to type a long rant up about this. There are so many weird parts of the language that took me forever to grasp, and in many cases, I still don't have an intuitive grasp of things.

And plenty of other examples that aren't in that article:

- You have a struct with an embedded interface. Does the outer struct satisfy the embedded interface? And can I type assert the outer struct into whatever embedded struct is fulfilling the inner interface?

- When should I pass by value and when should I pass by reference? Like I generally know when to choose which, but do I really know without performing a benchmark? And what about arrays? Should I store pointers in them? But it also seems that people just don't care and just randomly roll the dice on when to return a pointer or a value?

- Shorthand variable declaration. How does it work when you shorthand declare two variables but one of them already exists?

Don't both answering the questions, that's not the problem. The problem is that it's just not intuitive enough such that I'm confident I know the correct answer.


I am not going to answer the questions, but this is a very strange complaint, to be honest.

For example, passing by value/passing by reference is something covered immediately in the Go FAQ document once and for all. Everything is passed by value in Go, that is it. There should be no confusion at all. If you spend 15 minutes reading Russ Cox's post on the internals of the most common data types, you will also understand what data structures have implicit pointers under the hood.


Well yes obviously I know everything is passed by value, just like in literally every other popular language. I'm talking about the difference between pointer parameters/receivers vs value parameters/receivers.

Your thinking is too complex for Go. You might be better of with Rust.

Same about benchmarking, if you want and need the fastest code, or the best memory management, use Rust.

If you need something faster than Python in general but not the fastest, use Go.


But that's the thing right? Like I come from Java. In Java, we have objects. They are pointers. That's it. You don't get to decide on whether you want a pointer or a value (I guess primitives are an exception lol). But it was so simple!

And same in JavaScript. Everything is a pointer except primitives. That's it. End of story.

And I have written Rust too, and while the situation is definitely more complicated there, the guidance is extremely simple and straightforward: If the struct implements Copy, then it is very cheap to copy and you should pass by value. Otherwise, you should pass by pointer/reference.

And meanwhile in Go, I just see pointers and values being used seemingly interchangeably, and seemingly at random.


> but do I really know without performing a benchmark?

Not really. But that’s one of Rob Pikes rules [1], I think the intention is to write whatever is simplest and optimize later. The programmer doesn’t need to remember 100 rules about how memory is allocated in different situations.

[1] https://users.ece.utexas.edu/~adnan/pike.html


I mean it's a great idea, and I fully agree that I do not want to worry about memory allocation. So then why is `make` a thing? And why is `new` a thing? And why can't I take an address to a primitive/literal? And yet I can still take an address to a struct initialization? And why can't I take an address to anything that's returned by a function?

It's easy not simple, but the consequence is that any complexity that other languages handles for you, in go gets forced onto the developer.

There's more stuff to think about, because the language is doing less for you.


Yes, like "Opening Brace Can't Be Placed on a Separate Line" (from your link).

Everyone can read Go code and understand what happens. There are some minor difficulties like func (*A) vs func (A).,


RiscV assembly is even easier to read by that metric.

My assembler days were 4 decades ago, but

"Everyone can read Go code and understand what happens."

There seems to be a difference between "easy to read" and "understand what happens" - or what happens on what level. The challenge is that there is a tradeoff between the two. Assembler is too low to understand what "really" happens, on the other hand Haskell for example with Monad stacks is again very easy to read + understand what happens "most of the time", but hard to understand all the abstracted away side effects.

In Haskell with

   add 3 5
everything can happen beside what you see.

In assembler

  ld a, 3
  add a, 5
nothing happens except these two instructions.

The tradeoff is how much you want to be explicit, with the downside of creating too much noise, and how much you want to abstract away, with the downside of magic happening somewhere.


Yes. And to be less snarky: Go doesn't really sit on the efficiency frontier here:

It requires you to write a lot of stuff by hand and is incredibly verbose, but it also does a lot of magic behind the scenes.




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