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Cloudflare is a fantastic service with an unmatched value proposition, but it's unfortunately slowly killing web privacy, with 1000s paper cuts.

Another problem is "resist fingerprinting" prevents some canvas processing, and many websites like bluesky, linked in or substack uses canvas to handle image upload, so your images appear to be stripes of pixel.

Then you have mobile apps that just don't run if you don't have a google account, like chatgpt's native app.

I understand why people give up, trying to fight for your privacy is an uphill battle with no end in sight.






> Then you have mobile apps that just don't run if you don't have a google account, like chatgpt's native app.

Is that true? At least on iOS you can log into the ChatGPT with same email/password as the website.

I never use Google login for stuff and ChatGPT works fine for me.


See other comment.

The privacy battle has to be at the legal layer. GDPR is far from perfect (bureaucratic and unclear with weak enforcement), but it's a step in the right direction.

In an adversarial environment, especially with both AI scrapers and AI posters, websites have to be able to identify and ban persistent abusers. Which unfortunately implies having some kind of identification of everybody.


No, it's more than that. Cloudflare's bot protection has blocked me from sites where I have a paid account, paid for by my real checking account with my real name attached. Even when I am perfectly willing to give out my identity and be tracked, I still can't because I can't even get to the login page.

They block such visits because their pragma suspects that your visit is the account of a real human that was hacked by a bot.

You notice that Analogue Devices puts their (incredibly useful) information up for free. That's because they make money other ways. Ad supported content farm Internet had a nice run but we will get on without it.

That's another problem, we want cheap easy solutions like tracking people, instead of more targetteed or systemic ones.

> The privacy battle has to be at the legal layer.

I couldn't disagree more. The way to protect privacy is to make privacy the standard at the implementation layer, and to make it costly and difficult to breach it.

Trying to rely on political institutions without the practical and technical incentives favoring privacy will inevitably result in the political institutions themselves becoming the main instrument that erodes privacy.


Yet without regulation nothing stops large companies from simply changing the implementation layer for one that pads their bottom line better, or just rebuild it from scratch.

If people who valued privacy really controlled the implementation layer we wouldn't have gotten to this point in the first place.


The point we're at is one in which privacy is still attainable via implementation-layer measures, even if it requires investing some effort and making some trade-offs to sustain. The alternative -- placing trust in regulation, which never works in the long run -- will inevitably result in regulatory capture that eliminates those remaining practical measures and replaces them with, at best, a performative illusion.

> Then you have mobile apps that just don't run if you don't have a google account, like chatgpt's native app.

That's not true, I use ChatGPT's app on my phone without logging into a Google account.

You don't even need any kind of account at all to use it.


On Android at least, even if you don't need to log in to your google account when connecting to chatgpt, the app won't work if your phone isn't signed in into google play, which doesn't work if your phone isn't linked to a google account.

An android phone asks you to link a google account when you use it for the first time. It takes a very dedicated user to refuse that, then to avoid logging in into the gmail, youtube or app store apps which will all also link your phone to your google account when you sign in.

But I do actively avoid this, I use Aurora, F-droid, K9 and NewPipeX, so no link to google.

But then no ChatGPT app. When I start it, I get hit with a logging page to the app store and it's game over.


I have a similar experience with the pager duty app. It loads up and then exits with "security problem detected by app" because I've made it more secure by isolating it from Google (a competitor). Workaround is to just control it via slack instead.

Well you can use the web base chagpt so there is a workaround. Except it's worse a worse experience.


That won't make chatgpt's app work thought.

It might well do, depending on what ChatGPT's app is asking the OS for. /e/OS is an Android fork that removes Google services and replaces them with open source stubs/re-implementations from https://microg.org/

I haven't tried the ChatGPT app, but I know that, for example my bank and other financial services apps work with on-device fingerprint authentication and no Google account on /e/OS.


I already have microg installed.

So the requirement is to pass the phone’s system validation process rather than having a Google account. I don’t love that but I can understand why they don’t want to pay the bill for the otherwise ubiquitous bots, and it’s why it’s an Android-specific issue.

You can make a very rational case for each privacy invasive technical decision ever made.

In the end, the fact remain: no chatgpt app without giving up your privacy, to google none the less.


“Giving up your privacy” is a pretty sweeping claim – it sounds like you’re saying that Android inherently leaks private data to Google, which is broader than even Apple fans tend to say.

A person who was maximally distrustful of Google would assume they link your phone and your IP through the connection used to receive push notifications, and the wifi-network-visibility-to-location API, and the software update checker, and the DNS over HTTPS, and suchlike. As a US company, they could even be forced to do this in secret against their will, and lie about it.

Of course as Google doesn't claim they do this, many people would consider it unreasonably fearful/cynical.


Sure, but that says you shouldn’t have a phone, not that ChatGPT is forcing you to give up your privacy.

> it sounds like you’re saying that Android inherently leaks private data to Google, which is broader than even Apple fans tend to say.

Yes? I mean, not "leaks" - it's designed to upload your private data to Google and others.

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/study-reveals-scale-...

> Even when minimally configured and the handset is idle, with the notable exception of e/OS, these vendor-customised Android variants transmit substantial amounts of information to the OS developer and to third parties such as Google, Microsoft, LinkedIn, and Facebook that have pre-installed system apps. There is no opt-out from this data collection.


Google and Apple were both part of the PRISM program, of course I'm making this claim.

That's the opposite stance that would be bonkers.


PRISM covered communications through U.S. company’s servers. It was not a magic back door giving them access to your device’s local data, and even if you did believe that it was the answer would be not using a phone. A major intelligence agency does not need you to have a Google account so they can spy on you.

Forest for the tree.

Google and Apple are both heavily invested in ads (apple made 4.7 billion from ads in 2022), they have a track record of exfiltrating your data (remember contractors listening to your siri recordings?), of lying to the customers (remember the home button scandal on iPhone?), have control over a device that have your whole life yet runs partially on code you can't evaluate.

Trusting those people makes no sense at all. You have a business relationship with them, that's it.


It’s interesting how each time you say something which isn’t accurate you try to distract by changing the topic.



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