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As a graybeard fan of IA, I find their hubris damning. If they had one thing going for themselves it was some level of grandfathered goodwill - all of which they stupidly used up for this "COVID made me do it" nonsense.

It may have always been inevitable that copyright laws would burn down our modern Library of Alexandria, but they didn't have to hand out torches like this.



Yeah, I am finding it very hard to forgive them for falling in with the "covid suspends the normal rules" hysteria. They still have a chance to salvage the situation if they start exfiltrating their hard drives to a country not on friendly terms with the western IP regime, but time is running out.


Covid suspended a lot of normal rules, but those that could affect massive accumulations of wealth are of course not to be touched under any circumstances.


It didn't suspend the rules, it only made a lot of people feel entitled to break the rules. Those with power will never be held accountable for the various rules they broke, but those without that kind of privilege will be paying for what they did. Archive.org falls into the latter.


Depressing that in this 'enlightened' age, this statement is the closest to closure we will ever have for all the in-plain-sight rule breaking by the powers that be.

Technology, the great equalizer, except when it's not. Mostly not.


Lockdowns and attire and medication mandates weren't suspending normal rules? Their necessity can be argued for, but they clearly and dramatically suspended very fundamental liberties and rights.


No. They violated them. There's a difference.


Can IA ask all users to certify that they were using IA for research use only and qualify for the research use exemption under the copyright laws?

Lending books was to individual user accounts, so I’d guess it could be possible to reach out to users.

I’ve used IA lending one time when I wanted to check a reference in an old book and it was purely research use.

I would imagine that most of the IA use cases are research or teaching, not entertainment.


They were lending out digital copies long before covid. And like the author says, they house and freely distribute one of the largest collections of pirated software on the planet (my guess is Usenet is #1). What Lunduke didn't mention is that Jason Scott et al actively encourage users to "upload first and don't even ask questions later", so they are complicit in all of this.

To me that sounds like even more damning evidence of conspiracy to commit mass copyright infringement.


Well no, that's not evidence, that's an accusation with no source.


I qualified my statement with "that sounds like", because this is not a courtroom and I am not a lawyer or judge. My source is my own personal chat logs with him on Discord, but I have also seen him post basically the same thing in other places too.

I know there's more but here's one quick thing I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14y1t43FIk&t=1446s

Basically he says people ask him "why don't you ask before allowing copyrighted content to be made available" and his reply is something to the effect of "because it's too much work". Earlier in the same video he also clearly shows a huge disdain for copyright in general and laughs at people asking him to take things down.

Another https://youtu.be/rW7w7ZphM3Y?t=2368


Nobody should attempt any systemic change, let's rather lose one small isolated case at a time.


> attempt any systemic change

That’s the joke. This never had a chance of changing anything. All it’s done is make publishers look reasonable, because most people don’t believe one person should be able to unilaterally override millions of authors’ preferences around their works. (To say nothing of their livelihoods.)


Livelihoods of long dead people is a weirdly pressing issue when it comes to intellectual property.


> Livelihoods of long dead people

This is a reasonable stance! If the IA had only released books of dead authors, they’d have a point. They didn’t.


Looking at let’s play, fan fiction, and straight up piracy, etc I don’t think most people agree with the current copyright system even slightly.

Edit: On Hacker News more people upvote subscription bypass links in articles than downvote them.


> I don’t think most people agree with the current copyright system

No. But most people don’t agree with the IA’s anything goes position either.

I hate our system of copyright. But I can’t think of a better defence for it than pointing to the IA and saying is that what you really want? That authors can’t demand payment for their work?


You skipped the “even slightly” bit.

Piracy is very much anything goes. People post “commentary streams” where someone else’s YouTube video or even whole movies are shown in their entirety and there’s basically zero backlash from millions of fans. From what I can see the vast majority of Americans take no issue with what IA did.


> what I can see the vast majority of Americans take no issue with what IA did

Because nobody noticed outside a narrow slice of tech and media. When people are polled on copyright, no copyright is never more than a niche.


Revealed preferences say otherwise. If the general public shoplifted as frequently as they pirated content convince stores wouldn’t exist. Most people respect private property on some level, but copyright just doesn’t get that same respect.


> Revealed preferences say otherwise

I’ve pirated content. That doesn’t mean I believe copyright should be eliminated.

There is widespread dissatisfaction with our current system of copyright. That doesn’t imply support for abolishment.


  > I don’t think most people agree with the current copyright system even slightly.
Vocal people do not agree with current copyright. Don't confuse that for the majority - on any issue.


The #1 streaming service in the US is piracy and it’s still growing. That’s the silent majority.


> #1 streaming service in the US is piracy

Not doubting you. But do you have a source?


That is far more likely to be a financial consideration than a stance on copyright.


YouTube and many other options are free. I have trouble accepting the idea that someone would actually compromise on something they feel is important for a slightly wider number of options.

Personally I don’t pirate movies, games, shows, etc or pay for such content.


Actions speak louder than words.


The courtroom isn't the place. Congress is.


> courtroom isn't the place. Congress is

The courts can be. But you have to be strategic.


Somebody should, but it should be somebody else, with less to lose.

Whether IA is morally right or wrong here is completely irrelevant. They undertook an activity which had significant legal risks attached, and that might undermine their future web archiving efforts.

THe IA might believe that they are morally and legally in the right here, but they should have at least predicted that, with copyright law being what it is, the courts could be "wrong" and believe otherwise. It feels like they don't see the difference between believing that they are right and assuming that everybody else shares this belief.


Or maybe they have some goals beyond providing whiny entitled users temporary conveniencies for no profit or personal gain?


If attempting systemic change had been their goal, they could have done plenty of other things:

decentralize their dataset, with some distributed hash table, and a minimalistic blockchain for it (yes, yawn)

provide randomized signatures by themselves AND gather them from provably randomly selected participants of each page served, in order to testify a page showed specific claims/content at a certain date / time.

and so on ...

If the internet archive comes crashing down, at least the user base that relied on such services (or whatever simulacra they appeared to manifest) can band together and make such things happen properly, whereas the network effect was all usurped by the IA we know (and love or hate).

i.e. those who secure the status quo may regret allowing some greedy "publishers" to deconstruct an excellent fata morgana, the problem with deception is that some parts of the system start believing the overt purpouse of the covert behavior of other parts of the same system.

just look at how the soviet union spontaneously imploded.




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