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There have been over 20,000 communes set up in the US. They are not illegal. Pick one and join it. Or set your own up.



Socialism is seizing the workplace from the capitalist.


The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take.

Better to have a system based on creating things.


Well actually socialism has been historically concerned with maximizing human creativity. Fourier’s utopian vision was “libidinal” work that aligns passions with labor. Marcuse has a similar view in Eros and Civilization. Chomsky views creativity as axiomatic for humans, and syndicalism the appropriate system for harnessing it.


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> Socialists are always concerned with distributing production equally.

Not really. Socialism (the project of the labor movement) is concerned with workers being in control of their own work, not vessels for capitalist exploitation. Syndicalism is a form of socialism that emphasizes decentralization and federation, as opposed to command control. How resources are allocated under conditions of such federated governance is up for debate.

> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Socialism is older than Marxism and shouldn't be conflated with it.

> Where are all the creative products the Soviets made?

The USSR was a state capitalist/authoritarian regime, nothing like socialism.


> nothing like socialism

That happens every time. Socialism gets implemented with high hopes, falls flat on its face, and gets declared to be not really socialism at all.

How many times does it need to fail before one realizes it is never going to work?


If you read the literature around the Bolshevik revolution, Lenin's coup was highly criticized as un-socialist: Luxemburg, Goldman, etc.

Simple litmus test for socialism: do workers manage production completely, through direct democratic processes?


The trouble with your definition is the violence necessary to steal the means of production so you can set it up for your workers. A totalitarian government is required to do that. The workers will be severely constrained in what they can do - like set up their own businesses.

You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%.

Freedom means not being dictated to by the mob.


> violence necessary to steal the means of production

You could argue that private property is theft, necessarily enforced by a repressive state, and reappropriation is justice. The general strike is non-violent (until the police arrive).

> You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%.

The interesting part about decentralization is that it somewhat relieves this problem. Federation allows for complex arrangements that coordinate towards consensus. So it might not be necessary to subject populations to laws they don't agree with with such broad strokes.


> You could argue that private property is theft [...]

You could, but it wouldn't be convincing. It's a bit hard to convince me that things I bought or made I actually stole. Are you going to argue that if I hire someone to build a patio, I actually stole it from him?


Personal property is distinct from private property.


> Where are all the creative products the Soviets made?

Didn't they make Sputnik


Yes, they did. Anything else? Is your car a Soviet made car? How about your clothes? Computers? Furniture? Books? Anything in your dwelling?

Back in the heyday(!) of the USSR, tourists would routinely fill their luggage with blue jeans to sell on the black market there.


The Soviet Union was notoriously poor at prioritizing consumer goods, it’s probably one of the reasons for their downfall. One must admit though that both thym and the PRC have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity. I’m not sure that could’ve been achievable counterfactually, and as we saw with the sudden free market capture of post-Soviet Russia in the ‘90s, with a much smaller body count.

Anyway, you asked for Soviet creative products and I’ve named one. For what it’s worth, I’ve also heard good things about Soviet watches, I had a coworker who collected them and they’ve been discussed before on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27164417


Digital watches of far greater accuracy are available in a blister pack on a peg in the supermarket for $5.

When the Red Army invaded Germany, the number 1 looted object was wristwatches. Soldiers would have a row of them affixed to their forearms. In multiple books I've read, they were always looking for wristwatches.

My father (B-17 crew) was issued a wristwatch, but I've been unable to find it among his stuff. Timekeeping was essential for coordinated military operations.

> have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity

The USSR was described as 3rd world country with a 1st world military. The PRC launched their economy by abandoning Marxism and embracing free markets. Cuba is a mess as it still tries to hang on to Marxism.

I did read the Soviet watch article when it was here - most interesting!


Cheap digital watches lack the aesthetic charm of mechanical, not to mention are dependent upon battery power.

> The USSR was described as 3rd world country with a 1st world military.

And yet, tsarist Russia was even poorer and had worse standards of living. Pointing out that a change in state led to a difference in quality is not a moral judgment, nor does it necessitate an endorsement of that change.


> Socialists are always concerned with distributing production equally.

This doesn't reflect the most well-known socialist axiom on the distribution of production...

> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

...which you appear to be aware of. The entire point of idealizing "to each according to his need" is that different people have different needs.


That’s why cooperatism is superior to socialism and capitalism. It’s a free market of worker-owned companies, creating things by running their businesses together.


It's not a free market if you do not allow capitalism to exist.

Note that capitalism does not exclude worker-owned companies at all. You're free to start one.


The free market is a set of principles between companies, not a principle for how companies need to be organized internally. Capitalism is based on single-owned companies. Cooperatism is based on worker-owned companies. Cooperatism is a better free market based economy. It’s capitalism 2.0.


> The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take.

Pretty damning critique of capitalists there, comrade.


What was America like before capitalists? and after? Where did all that wealth come from, comrade?


Did you know there used to be people who lived on that land


I missed the railroads, steel industries, chip manufacturers, iphones, etc. that were looted from those people?

BTW, studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians shows they worked hard and suffered from periodic famines, as well as a lot of violence.


Therein lies the commonality between all economic systems: where there are people, there is the taking.

Industries tend to require raw materials, which many times are located in or around land.


Free markets are not built around taking. They are built around exchanging.


Ah, the starry-eyed utopianism. Marxists and Objectivists are truly funhouse mirror images; they may look completely different from one another, but both belong at the carnival.


Free markets are a ideal which has never been achieved, much like socialism. There is, and never has been, a market without regulation, and with only voluntary participation and without stolen goods being exchanged.


Those things weren't looted from the natives.

But the profits were looted from the workers who actually built all that stuff.

Capitalists aren't the ones hammering in steel spikes or wearing clean-room fab suits.


Better for the natives and enslaved Africans, that's for sure.




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