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I have what is probably a dumb question: How can a Raptor turbopump need almost double the HP of a F1 while putting out 1/3 or 1/4th the thrust? (Assuming Elon's 100k HP number was correct, and/or hasn't changed). That just doesn't settle out for me. If it's got double the power, it should be moving double the fuel, so double the power, no?



The formula for Isp - the important measure of efficiency of the rocket engine - says that the speed with which the engine throws away hot gases grows with the difference of pressures - before nozzle and at the exit of the nozzle.

The whole idea, by the way, of the full-flow combustion is to extract some more energy from the fuel - before sending that fuel to the chamber, and at the temperature which the turbine of the turbopump can tolerate - so that energy could be used for pumps and more pressure could be created in the chamber. More energy than "more conservative" closed-cycle engines.

The pump power is equal to the volume flow (how many cubic meters, or, say, liters of fuel the pump transfers per second) multiplied by the pressure (which pressure is at the exit of the pump). So, it's not the flow - it's the pressure where Raptor has a big advantage over F-1, and that pressure allows to have a better Isp.

And of course the better Isp allows to reach bigger characteristic velocity (or just a velocity in a free space, where gravity or atmosphere don't get in the way) using the same amount of fuel.

The logic goes roughly like that. Every rocket engine designer wants to reach bigger Isp. For that, using a particular fuel, one need to reach bigger pressure in the chamber, and we move from pressure-fed engines (like the first French orbital rocket, Diamant, which had pressure-fed first stage) to pumps, because high-pressure tanks are too heavy. Pumps initially are open cycle, or gas generator cycle, but we throw away enough gases after the pumps' turbine, so next improvement is we get a closed cycle. With closed cycle we can choose to use all fuel or all oxidizer to move the turbine, but as soon as some component is used fully, we can't get more energy for pumps. Eventually we go to the more complex full-flow cycle, which uses both components and reaches the highest pressure in the chamber.

The next step would probably be a detonation engine :) which uses somewhat more efficient process to convert chemical energy into speed, but it's not yet developed enough. We can also talk about more heat-resistant turbines which would allow to extract more energy from the fuel and to increase pressure some more... but there we also have a lot of R&D ahead of us.


Raptor is much smaller, F-1 has a diameter of ~3.7m, Raptor has a diameter of ~1.3m, so it's pumping out 1/4th-1/3rd the thrust in 1/8th the area.


Raptor has much higher chamber pressure (35 MPa vs 7 MPa of F1) and hence higher Isp (380 vs 304 in vacuum).


35MPa is ~5000psi for anyone wondering lol.


And I took the effort to convert it to metric… Seriously, NASA uses the metric system and so should you.


Maybe fuel might play a role. The Raptor burns methane, the F-1 refined petroleum. Another possible reason is that the designs may make different efficiency vs power trade-offs.


Maybe something to do with pressure. Maybe it is higher chamber pressure and maybe higher pressure even with lower flow rates could require more power.


Perhaps it has to do with the relative densities of RP-1 versus methane?




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