> I really don’t see how saying it’s a post-WWII invention and was strongly influenced by America means it originated here.
> Pizza was born in Italy. What Italians call classic pizza today is a post-WWII invention, by Italians, in Italy, strongly influenced by the way it’s cooked in America.
This doesn't really make sense; an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today. The word existed, but the concept didn't.
However, while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza.
Flatbreads eaten with other foods placed on top of them are a common thing, and wikipedia's "history of pizza" page makes sure to say that that's where the history of pizza begins, but that's not really a defensible idea either; there is no continuity between various parallel "bread, but with flavorful foods at the same time" meals from across the world and pizza. If Achaemenid soldiers baked flatbread with cheese on it, and then that practice died out, and over a thousand years later Italian peasants put vegetables on their flatbread... why would we say the extinct Persian food is an ancestor of the Italian one?
If a bunch of American soldiers, raised to believe that pizza is an Italian food, visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born? The lesson there is that pizza is about as Italian as crab Rangoon is Burmese.
Huh, some overcomplicated ones and then the “pizza effect.”
> an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today
Eh, some of the 19th-century descriptions come close enough to be recognisable as a pizza variant.
I’m not convinced a 19th century tomato pie wouldn’t be recognised as pizza today.
> while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza
I haven’t seen a historical source (or combustion analysis) showing the high temperatures modern Neapolitan pizzas are cooked in occurring in the early 20th century here (nor 19th century there).
That appears to be the Italians taking the New York gas-oven idea and cranking it to 11. (480°C to be exact.)
> visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born?
That many of them didn’t go the Napoli, also, we bombed a lot of things.
> That appears to be the Italians taking the New York gas-oven idea and cranking it to 11. (480°C to be exact.)
Is that really the temperature New York pizza is cooked at? Every Napolitana pizza recipe I've made or seen is cooked around 330-350C in a stone oven with wood. Never imagined pizza would be cooked at such high temperatures.
> that really the temperature New York pizza is cooked at? Every Napolitana pizza recipe I've made or seen is cooked around 330-350C in a stone oven with wood
Neapolitan. Approximately 380 (base) to 485°C (dome) in a wood-fired oven, by regulation [1].
The term is noted in the "history of pizza" wikipedia article you linked:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_effect
> I really don’t see how saying it’s a post-WWII invention and was strongly influenced by America means it originated here.
> Pizza was born in Italy. What Italians call classic pizza today is a post-WWII invention, by Italians, in Italy, strongly influenced by the way it’s cooked in America.
This doesn't really make sense; an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today. The word existed, but the concept didn't.
However, while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza.
Flatbreads eaten with other foods placed on top of them are a common thing, and wikipedia's "history of pizza" page makes sure to say that that's where the history of pizza begins, but that's not really a defensible idea either; there is no continuity between various parallel "bread, but with flavorful foods at the same time" meals from across the world and pizza. If Achaemenid soldiers baked flatbread with cheese on it, and then that practice died out, and over a thousand years later Italian peasants put vegetables on their flatbread... why would we say the extinct Persian food is an ancestor of the Italian one?
If a bunch of American soldiers, raised to believe that pizza is an Italian food, visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born? The lesson there is that pizza is about as Italian as crab Rangoon is Burmese.