China is taking over Russian car or consumer electronics markets, for example. The trade between two countries is soaring, Western brands are being substituted by Chinese production.
> How are you defining won or lost?
Strategic imperative of the West was that European borders cannot be changed by force and the global order based on rules and international law will ensure that. It is clear now that without direct NATO involvement the best achievable outcome will be a new iron curtain on Dnepr river. No sanctions or military supplies can change that, it is just too late. This in turn means that the old order has collapsed, USA cannot be trusted as a guarantor of security, EU is not a serious power and we already see how other nations are recalculating their alignment.
> China is taking over Russian car or consumer electronics markets, for example. The trade between two countries is soaring, Western brands are being substituted by Chinese production.
I see - yes I don't disagree with that, but wasn't entirely sure what you meant. I think on the whole the west doesn't really care outside of the oil and gas which they've managed to put Russia's infrastructure into a desired state. Exports halted, Ukraine is attacking infrastructure, Europe is doing whatever it can not to buy Russian oil (good for US and Saudi Arabia), and what oil Russia does sell is sold at a discounted rate to India last I checked.
> Strategic imperative of the West was that European borders cannot be changed by force and the global order based on rules and international law will ensure that. It is clear now that without direct NATO involvement the best achievable outcome will be a new iron curtain on Dnepr river. No sanctions or military supplies can change that, it is just too late.
Well the war isn't over yet is it? The US and EU just gave Ukraine around $100bn which is 2x the official Russian military budget. It seems that things in the east have sort of stabilized with neither side able to do much, so perhaps the west will have "lost" because Russia took over that part of Ukraine and no more? If so I mean it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things given the cost imposed on Russia.
> This in turn means that the old order has collapsed, USA cannot be trusted as a guarantor of security, EU is not a serious power and we already see how other nations are recalculating their alignment.
This I would strongly disagree with. I don't think Russia throwing body after body into Ukraine which is much smaller in every aspect only for it to be stopped at the Dnepr River means that the entire western order has collapsed.
I would also strongly disagree with your assessment that the EU is not a serious power. The EU as a whole sure in the sense that the EU doesn't have the ability to unilaterally field an army, but both France and the UK have quite serious militaries and are able to project power at least as well if not better than Russia with or without American help. USA not being trusted doesn't make much sense to me either. Trump scares our partners (rightfully so) but almost everyone in Congress and in the military and intelligence establishment recognizes the US's need to defend allies and shore up alliances.
Frankly, if you take a look at troop deployments and training exercises, both Sweden and Finland joining NATO (and NATO troops heading to Finland), it's pretty clear the US is committed to the defense of Europe. Actions speak louder than words.
China is taking over Russian car or consumer electronics markets, for example. The trade between two countries is soaring, Western brands are being substituted by Chinese production.
> How are you defining won or lost?
Strategic imperative of the West was that European borders cannot be changed by force and the global order based on rules and international law will ensure that. It is clear now that without direct NATO involvement the best achievable outcome will be a new iron curtain on Dnepr river. No sanctions or military supplies can change that, it is just too late. This in turn means that the old order has collapsed, USA cannot be trusted as a guarantor of security, EU is not a serious power and we already see how other nations are recalculating their alignment.