Ask HN: Choosing Between Two Jobs

[leinkasorafkt]

i have a good job with a lot of freedom and an amazing manager with whom i go way back, but am struggling more and more with some of the people i work with.

the defacto leader of our group/team (he has no actual managerial title or responsibilities) belittles or speaks over people all the time, not just me. his verbal output is easily 80% of the total in any given meeting or forum. sometimes i will just skip meetings because my presence won't have an impact anyway. there's another who guy will talk at length in every standup about every little detail that he got done the previous day and also has a habit of interrupting others.

the other team members are the complete opposite and terrific to work alongside.

any ideas i have are either dismissed outright or pawned off later as someone else's.

i know that if i start saying something in a meeting i won't be able to finish my train of thought or the idea won't be accepted anyway. due to this i rarely speak up anymore and just do miscellaneous coding work / refactoring. overall this leads to less potential "recognition" throughout any given year or project and i fear it will be detrimental to my career long-term.

i am looking at this other job. the salary looks to be around 85% of my current.

do i really want to make back the salary deficit with more time spent in the office (overtime)?

maybe the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

[zer00eyz]

This is one of those times where you need to go talk to your manager.

You need to tell him: I dont want you to intercede in this matter, I want to develop the skills to deal with this myself.

You need to say out loud. "stop speaking over me", "stop cutting so and so of", "xxx be quite YYY was not done speaking, YYY continue". You need to take ownership over your ideas and speak up for yourself.

The ladder up in business is a human one, you can be a rung or you can learn to climb. You dont have to be a dick about things but you should NOT be walked on with out deference or credit.

EDIT and PS: Never take a pay cut unless you're unemployed. That line only goes UP.

[giantg2 → zer00eyz]

"Never take a pay cut unless you're unemployed. That line only goes UP."

This is terrible advice. You can absolutely take a pay cut for a lower stress job or better worklife balance. I've known quite a few people who go out of higher paying jobs because they wanted a better working environment. It's not always feasible to get higher pay and better conditions.

[zer00eyz → giantg2]

In the grand scheme of humanity we have those who live in abject poverty, who are near or at slave labor levels to grow coffee or mine minerals that end up powering the HN workforce.

The words "better working environment" where the highest risk to your well being is RIS and the drive time on your commute (if you even have one) is the most fucking entitled notion ever. Do you know how many people die every year on the job, suffer disabilities that stop them from working? I dont think your average HN reader is going to be one of those people.

Most of HN is likely in the top 10 percent of earners in the US, for jobs that look nothing like every one else's. Your out here talking about work life balance when the majority of Americans work jobs where the words OVERTIME would be cause for excitement.

And that's the thing, I have worked for my money in a past life. I know plenty of people who WORK for their money today. Candidly no amount of typing is going to make me want to go back to one of those SHIT jobs. And every one else I know who has had or still has one of those SHIT jobs is gonna agree.

> It's not always feasible to get higher pay and better conditions.

in 26 years in the SF Bay Area, there has only been one time where this was NOT the case, and that was at the end of the dot com bubble. Unemployed, or a lot of risk (aka founders) are the only times I have ever seen people take pay cuts.

[giantg2 → zer00eyz]

Nothing you're saying conflicts with what I'm saying.

Death and disability is not likely when working a keyboard, but those aren't the only things determining the working environment.

I'd be excited about overtime if we actually got overtime. I've worked other types of jobs with overtime and enjoyed getting it. I'm not excited about working 60hr weeks on a salary when a similar rate of pay can be had at 40hr a week, even if it results in a lower salary.

Yes, most HN users are likely paid above average. That's part of the reason the person doesn't always have to look for a higher salary but can look at job details. However, I don't believe they're all in the top 10% for their locality. There are other high paying professions, and plenty of lower paying dev jobs. I actually make below the median nationally and for my locality.

Ok... so you agree that it's not always feasible to take a higher paying job...

[vunderba → zer00eyz]

This is such a bizarrely unrelated rant to what parent was saying. It's absolutely okay to take a pay decrease where other conditions (that are important to you) are being met such as:

1. A job which more closely aligns with your interests

2. A job which feels more laudable/noble

3. A job which lets you work from home vs office

etc. etc.

[matrix87 → zer00eyz]

> Do you know how many people die every year on the job, suffer disabilities that stop them from working? I dont think your average HN reader is going to be one of those people.

most people aren't one of those people because it wouldn't scale society wide

> is the most fucking entitled notion ever

free markets are good, unless workers leverage them to get what they want. then they're bad, obviously

[kingkongjaffa → giantg2]

You’re on a message board paid for by venture capitalists, it’s safe to assume most people here prioritise compensation at least more than average.

[giantg2 → kingkongjaffa]

Well I guess I just suck at life.

I assume even highly paid people eventually want a "better" job. Something like fewer hours, a more interesting problem, a worthwhile mission, coworkers/ bosses that aren't jerks, etc. I see the posts on here all the time.

[caprock → zer00eyz]

I generally agree with the tactics suggested here by zer0.

Make your manager aware, so they start paying closer attention, but be wary of asking them to act for you as you don't know what they might do to make things worse. They don't sound like a good manager in terms of managing social cohesion.

Then, start experimenting with tactics to interrupt these problem folks and get them back on track to clearer, group oriented communication. What often happens in these scenarios is many people are quietly tired of it just like you. If you gently and politely push back, you'll soon find the other voices come alive to help and join in. It might take a few weeks.

Also, I don't think I'd take the risk of running into similar problem people at a new job for a guaranteed pay decrease.

[muffinman26 → zer00eyz]

If you switch careers, of course you're going to take a pay cut. Why would I expect to be making as much money as an apprentice plumber as I am as a software developer with years of experience?

There are plenty of jobs that are important to certain career paths but come with a pay cut. For software developers, it might be starting a business. Would you expect a politician to turn down a position as Secretary of [State, Treasury, etc.] because it's a pay cut?

There's more to life than money and if I have to spend the rest of my life working at a desk, that isn't a life at all.

[scuzzy_]

Sounds like you’re looking for a company where you make meaningful contributions to the code and push yourself. In that case, look for positions at smaller companies. Figure out how much of a paycut you’re willing to endure, because you’ll probably end up working overtime with no additional pay anyway.

My biggest suggestion though would be to find a way to cope with what you have. You got annoying coworkers that try to be managers and go into too much detail at standups? Guess what bud, that’s never gonna go away. Part of your career growth is how you deal with things when your work situation is very mediocre or at worst, very toxic. That means having to make tough decisions and weathering storms gracefully. Take your time, and never let your ego or emotions influence your decision.

[leinkasorafkt → scuzzy_]

thanks for the reply!

i agree that there will always be things to dislike in any company. agile is ramping up hard in the company i work for and guess everyone's adapting in his or her own way..

the lower-salary job is less invested in standups/sprints and the like, and smaller overall, so i think there'd be less micro-management, but again, working 200 hours overtime a year (that's 1.5~ months extra) just to get back to the previous paycheque is a tough call.

[codingdave]

It sounds like you don't have an amazing manager, you have an easy manager - a comfortable manager. Someone who is pleasant to work with, but who is not effective at their job of managing the team.

Or, it could be that they are not amazing at managing you. They are not helping you find solutions to the problems you are having, nor are they mentoring you to resolve the problems yourself. As a result you are diminishing your own presence and work. And they are ok with that?

To answer your question, I would not switch. It sounds like you mostly like the job, you just dislike a couple co-workers. That will always be the case, anywhere you go. Part of learning to navigate your career is learning how to work with people whose working and communication styles differ from your own.

[leinkasorafkt → codingdave]

interesting perspective. i agree with you, i need to work on how i handle the workplace.

through 15 years i have only had 2 managers. we meet maybe once every 2 months and have sit-downs every half-year/9 months for talking about goals, salary adjustment purposes or if i want to attend a conference or course or such.

i am very easy to handle for managers in that i rarely need 1:1s or have many requirements. i am also hardly ever sick, it's been a few years since i took sick leave or a mental health day.

[romerocarlos]

It sounds like you're in a challenging situation at work. Dealing with difficult coworkers who dominate conversations, dismiss ideas, and take credit for others' contributions can be very frustrating and demoralizing. It's understandable that this dynamic is making you consider changing jobs. Only you can decide if the trade-offs of the new job are worth it. But a 15% pay cut is significant, and more hours can come at the cost of work-life balance and fulfillment. And as you note, there's no guarantee the culture will be better. Good luck!

[leinkasorafkt → romerocarlos]

definitely. those hours are worth a lot. thanks for the reply :)

[austin-cheney]

My recommendation is simply know what you want. If you don’t give a shit about people then just follow the money. If you care about people then be very choosy about extremely solid leadership. If you care about quality of product then only choose jobs where you actually build things and learn.

[leinkasorafkt → austin-cheney]

i like people, but being somewhat meek and amicable i can only deal with people who are somewhat like myself in terms of affinity money is important, but i would hate to work 50 hours versus 40 to "make up" for what i lose in pay what's most important to me is personal/professional satisfaction in terms of delivering value to customers though finding the unity/trinity in which everything meshes well is tricky..

[shivc]

In any scenario I personally would choose a great team to work with and opportunities to learn and build cool things over everything else.

[foobarbaz33]

> ...devil you know is better...

Yes. Losing 15% of your income to jump into an even more unpleasant environment would suck.

Your current job doesn't sound all that bad. Wait for a 10% bump before switching.

[leinkasorafkt → foobarbaz33]

that would be horrendous yes!

i have a private office now and this potential one has an open plan environment, but is also more work-from-home friendly.

you are right in that it's not bad, just different from when i started and maybe i'm less adaptable than i thought and not cut out for this "new" agile world.

i think fewer standups would be good. maybe if it were a "walk-the-board" kind of format i'd appreciate it more.

i'm just feeling that if my contributions become less visible i'll at some point get "found out" as someone who just collects paycheques and never delivers. my manager doesn't read git commits or knows who had novel idea x, y, z.

maybe i am way too invested in work and should find other outlets.

[dyeje]

If you’re okay with sticking it out in your current position, why not keep interviewing and hold out for a role you’re excited about?

[leinkasorafkt → dyeje]

i will try this, but it's difficult.

for me, to re-establish myself at a new company is like 90% of the battle. even a 10% pay increase wouldn't really be worth that monumental task.

[frigg]

These types of problems you usually bring forth in retros. Have you done that, what was the outcome?

[999900000999]

You might just be burnt out.

Maybe take a few months off?

[leinkasorafkt → 999900000999]

this sounds like a good suggestion.

who knows, airfares could easily double or triple in the next few years, might as well spend some time vacationing now.

[fargle]

> the other team members are the complete opposite and terrific to work alongside.

good!

> the defacto leader of our group/team (he has no actual managerial title or responsibilities) belittles or speaks over people all the time

> any ideas i have are either dismissed outright or pawned off later as someone else's.

not good.

as sibling comments have alluded to, you need to fix this issue in place. unless it's the real manager you have a hopeless beef with, it's not time to quit. oh, and i'd expect apathy or a weak response at first. that's pretty normal. welcome to life. /s the best strategy is to be right. is this guy your actual manager or not? (not) who was the decision responsibility/authority? (not technically him, right?) and so on. you tell the real manager all of this and that you would like to not have technical decisions dictated always from a peer. you would like an area to work that you have some modest authority over.

so you need to be assertive. if you don't, you'll just make 15% less and still have the same team member issue somewhere else with a different name.

[leinkasorafkt → fargle]

thanks for the suggestions!

i think i have no legible way of asserting myself, alas. he is a better developer than me, more liked by upper leadership and has a way with words that escapes me.

this coworker was succesful a few years ago in having our former very well-liked and professional project/scrum master thrown out of the team after they had several arguments.

he is comfortable to have around for upper management because he gets things done, only it has to be done his way.

to me it's a case of at some point giving someone a fingertip and eventually the entire hand and arm will be taken.

it basically boiled down to that the project manager felt he wasn't actually in charge of direction or leadership. the jira board would suddenly change without there having been consensus about it, or he would unilaterally have meetings with key stakeholders without inviting this project manager.

i think it hurts more for project leader types to be talked over or go uninvited to meetings than an IC, or maybe i have just gotten used to it