Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

ELI5:

ICs are manufactured on silicon disks called wafers. Discs have two sides, and traditionally, everything was done on top. We can now do power on the bottom. This makes things go faster and use less power:

* Power wires are big (and can be a bit crude). The bigger the better. Signal wires are small and precise. Smaller is generally better.

* Big wires, if near signal wires, can interfere with them working optimally (called "capacitance").

* Capacitance can slow down signals on the fine signal wires.

* Capacitance also increases power usage when ones become zeros and vice-versa on signal wires.

* Big wires also take up a lot of space.

* Putting them on the back of the wafer means that things can go faster and use less power, since you don't have big power wires near your fine signal wires.

* Putting them in back leaves a lot more space for things in front.

* Capacitance between power wires (which don't carry signal) actually helps deliver cleaner power too, which is a free bonus!

This is hard to do, since it means somehow routing power through the wafer. That's why we didn't do this before. You need very tiny wires through very tiny holes in locations very precisely aligned on both sides. Aligning things on the scale of nanometers is very, very hard.

How did I do?




There's still the question though of why they didn't do this decades ago - seems very obvious that this layout is better. What changed that made it possible only now and not earlier?


My knowledge isn't current enough to offer more than speculation.

However, something like an 80286 didn't even require a heatsink, while my 80486 had a dinky heat sink similar to what you might find on a modern motherboard chipset. At the same time, on a micron node, wires were huge. A few special cases aside (DEC Alpha comes to mind), power distribution didn't require anything special beyond what you'd see on your signal wires, and wasn't a major part of the interconnect space.

Mapping out to 2024:

1) Signal wires became smaller than ever.

2) Power density is higher than ever, requiring bigger power wires.

So there is a growing disparity between the needs of the two.

At the same time, there is continued progress in figuring out how to make through-wafer vias more practical (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dimensional_integrated_c...).

I suspect in 2000, this would have been basically restricted to $$$$ military-grade special processes and similar types of very expensive applications. In 2024, this can be practically done for consumer devices. As costs go down, and utility goes up, at some point, the two cross, leading to practical devices.

I suspect a lot of this is driven by progress in imagers. There, the gains are huge. You want a top wafer which is as close as possible to 100% sensor, but you need non-sensor area if you want any kind of realtime processing, full frame readout (e.g. avoiding rolling shutter), or rapid readout (e.g. high framerate). The first time I saw 3D IC technology in mainstream consumer use were prosumer-/professional-grade Sony cameras.

I have strong fundamentals, but again, I stopped following this closely maybe 15 years ago, so much of the above is speculative.


> seems very obvious that this layout is better

"Better" is relative, the layout introduces more fabrication steps so it's only better if you actually get some benefit from it. Decades ago designs didn't require as much power or have as many transistors to wire so it wasn't an issue.


> why they didn't do this decades ago

You might as well ask why, since we can do it now, Shockley didn't simply start at 3nm. It's all a very long road of individual process techniques.

> You need very tiny wires through very tiny holes in locations very precisely aligned on both sides.

Key word here is "both sides". It has challenges similar to solder reflow on double sided boards: you need to ensure that work done on the first side isn't ruined/ruining work on the second side.

https://semiwiki.com/semiconductor-services/techinsights/288... seems to be a good description.

"The challenges with BPR are that you need a low resistance and reliable metal line that does not contaminate the Front End Of Line (FEOL). BPR is inserted early in the process flow and must stand up to all the heat of the device formation steps."

Contamination = metals used musn't "poison" the front-side chemistry. So they end up using tungsten rather than the more usual aluminium. (Copper is forbidden for similar chemistry reasons)

It also (obviously) adds a bunch of processing steps, each of which adds to the cost, more so than putting the rails on the front side.


I think it's more that it's only necessary now. It's such a pain to make that you'll only do it given no other option. A lot of what modern processes are going was possible ages ago, but it was basically always better (in terms of ease for performance gain) to go smaller instead. Now that smaller doesn't help so much, you can see them pulling out all the other tricks in the book to try to improve (and costs going up as a result).


I assume the idea itself is pretty obvious, but the manufacturing techniques to actually implement it are complicated


> You need very tiny wires through very tiny holes in locations very precisely aligned on both sides. Aligning things on the scale of nanometers is very, very hard.

Do you need to align that precisely? Can't the power side have very large landing pads for the wires from the signal side to make it much easier?


Not big enough, they still need to fit the size of the transistors on the signal side.


Thanks this was a very useful summary for me!


so the wafer is a huge ground plane? still can't see how one side is separate from the other if its the same block.


The wafer is thick. Let's call it a mm thick (not quite, but close). Devices are tiny. The claim is 1.6nm, which isn't quite true, but let's pretend it is, since for the qualitative argument, it doesn't make a difference. That's on the order of a million times smaller than the thickness of the wafer.

Historically, everything was etched, grown, deposited, and sputtered on one side of the wafer. The rest of the wafer was mostly mechanical support. The other side of the wafer is a universe away.

The world is more complex today, but that's a good model to keep in mind.

For a 3d integrated circuit, you would do this, and then e.g. grind away the whole wafer, and be left with a few micron thick sheet of just the electronics, which you'd mechanically place on top of another similar sheet. That's every bit as complex as it sounds. That's why this was restricted to very high-end applications.

As for whether the wafer is a huge ground plane, that's complex too, since it depends on the top of the device and the IC:

* First, it's worth remembering a pure silicon crystal is an insulator. It's only when you dope it that it becomes a conductor. The wafer starts out undoped.

* Early ICs had the whole wafer doped, and the collector of all the NPN transistors was just the wafer. There, it was a ground plane.

* SOI processes deposit a layer of glass on top of the wafer, and everything else on the glass. There, the wafer is insulated from the circuit.

So all of this can very quickly go in many directions, depending on generation of technology and application.

I'm not sure this post is helpful, since it's a lot of complexity in an ELI5, so I'll do a TL;DR: It's complicated. (or: Ask your dad)


now I'm even more confused. why start with Si if you're going to put a glass layer before anything else? why not start with glass right away?


Ergo, the TL;DR :)

Even so, I oversimplified things a lot (a lot of the processes to leverage the silicon wafer, but some don't):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_on_insulator

One of the things to keep in mind is that a silicon wafer starts with a near-perfect silicon ingot crystal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocrystalline_silicon

The level of purity and perfection there is a little bit crazy to conceive.

It's also worth noting how insanely tiny devices are. A virus is ≈100nm. DNA is 2nm diameter. We're at << 10nm for a device. That's really quite close to atomic-scale.

There are something like ≈100 billion transistors per IC for something like a high-end GPU, and a single failed transistor can destroy that fancy GPU. That's literally just a few atoms out-of-place or a few atoms of some pollutant.

The level of perfection needed is insane, and the processes which go into that are equally insane. We are making things on glass, but the glass has to be nearly perfect glass.


>> There are something like ≈100 billion transistors per IC for something like a high-end GPU, and a single failed transistor can destroy that fancy GPU.

No, it can't thanks to this fancy marketing strategy where you sell faulty GPUs at lower price, as lower-tier model.


can is important there. Not all failures can be masked off. And this only makes the slightest of dent in the level of reliability you need in making any given transistor.


The demand for perfection is mildly ameliorated by having a few redundant circuits and microcode and then a software layer that can detect and workaround defects. If your GPU loses one if its 1000 integer math units, it doesn’t die, it just slows down for an operation that might otherwise use that one.


thank you for the explanation! It really helped


[flagged]


> I detest ELI5 as it's managerial nonsense.

I thought it came from Reddit, which is about as far from ‘managerial’ as one can get.


What is it you think managers do, if not waste all day on reddit?




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: