Currently in China which is pretty much fully cashless and I fucking hate it.
Get Alipay. Link your credit card. Put in a pin, but no not that pin because it has two consecutive numbers. Pick a different pin. Forget it by the time you need to pay and reset your pin. Go to the grocery store and have to download a new app to pay, they can’t take Alipay even though it’s the same parent company. Oh the machine didn’t work, so pull your phone out again to scan. And the endless additional services you need to sign up for to avoid price discrimination upwards of 200%.
It’s a nightmare. Japan has it right, keeping with a cash based society.
When I was visiting China in 2019 it was just about still possible to use cash, but it was obvious the way things were going. As a visitor I wasn't able to use any of the available cashless payment methods (no bank account, for a start), so I don't know how visitors and tourists will cope.
It's much easier if you have Chinese ID or at least vefified Weixin (WeChat) account. AliPay with linked credit card is a kludge for tourists. It works, but only as good as you expect from a kludge. Like I was able to pay pretty much everywhere with AliPay in Beijing, but a few vending machines stubbornly refused to accept it.
>I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.
But how do you get a regular re-supply of your cash to pay the places that take cash?
For me, I would have to make a regular trips to the bank ATM machine to withdraw cash. That type of errand is inconvenient which is why I haven't done that in 15 years. It's been so long that I don't even know what my secret PIN code is to withdraw cash. I pay for everything by credit-card.
I can see where bringing a debit card can be inconvenient but the alternative of ATM withdrawals is inconvenient too (and also vulnerable to physical loss/theft).
Be glad there are ATMs. I'm old enough to remember getting cash involved checks and bank tellers--assuming you had an account with a local bank because otherwise it was more complicated.
Don’t most bank reimburse atm fees? I just keep my cash topped off whenever I go to the grocery. It’s a lot more convenient to pull out my wallet than to look people up on vemno/zelle imo.
I mean, sorry for the sass, but when did it become acceptable to base an argument on slight inconveniences? Being alive is slightly inconvenient most of the time.
>, but when did it become acceptable to base an argument on slight inconveniences?
It's not about avoiding any and all inconveniences.
My comment was based on gp's framing of the situation as "being required to do <X>". He wrote that a cashless businesses was not ideal because it means "being required to bring my phone / debit card with me".
Ok, I can accept that inconvenience exists but then the alternative to "hassle of debit card" is just substituted with "hassle of being required to regularly re-supply the inventory of cash on hand".
Substituting <X> with "debit card cashless" with "visit ATMs and carry wad of cash" didn't seem like a slam dunk tradeoff. Another issue I remember with cash is getting a stack of $20 bills from the ATM and then trying to spend it but the business' cash drawer doesn't have the appropriate inventory of small denomination bills to give back the correct change. (Even if the ATM can also spit out smaller $10s or $5s, they can often run out which then leaves only the larger $20 bills left for dispensing.) The credit-card transactions eliminate that issue because you just pay the exact amount.
Sure, if transactions privacy is the #1 concern, then one will happily withdraw cash and deal with its inconveniences. But privacy wasn't in the gp's comment so I just interpreted it at face value.
This is increasingly difficult, at least in Western Europe, without it being a significant imposition. I've had several instances where, despite absolutely no signage or indication anywhere outside the business, inside the business, or on the menu, I've waited in a queue, ordered something, and only when I'm ready to pay been told that the, eg, coffee shop won't accept cash. I've also been to several restaurants, especially in London, where despite officially accepting cash, attempting to pay in cash will result in the staff returning and asking you not to if at all possible: it appears that the staff at those restaurants are not actually allowed to handle cash payments themselves, and have to have management handle them directly.
While it's not clear that these behaviours are legal, it does not appear that there is any enforcement.
In England at least, those behaviours are legal, without a doubt [0][1]
I'm not aware of a law that requires them to clearly sign post which payment methods they accept. I think there are various laws in other places in Europe though. I'm definitely all for that
They're taking on the risk of spoilage by not putting in any effort to make you aware before ordering - and hoping you'll just pay by card due to the sunk time cost. Shady but not illegal AFAIK.
I assume part of it is that if you accept any cash, you have most of the downsides without any of the upsides (e.g. not having to deposit cash at the bank).
Sometimes I don’t want to walk around with my valuables on me, I just bring a small sum enough to satisfy my groceries.
I do this especially when it’s dark outside and I have to go out to shop, this way, I don’t lose anything significant if I get robbed.
Another good reason is that some shops have to pay a fee for being able to accept digital transactions, for some shops, the fee is quite a lot.
So paying with cash is preferred and helps them a bit.
Lastly, while it sounds shady, being able to pay in cash keeps me from being traced by the government. I don’t really have anything to hide but having the option to be anonymous If I want feels good.
Cash is useful in cases where your phone/card isn't working. E.g. if your phone has run out of battery, you are in a location that has a poor signal, your account has been locked due to a suspicious/unusual transaction (even if legitimate), etc.
You don't need it all the time, just for emergencies.
Systems you want to use in an emergency have a tendency to start failing when you don't exercise them regularly. That's my primary reason for using cash. Privacy is the second. The tactile sense for how much money I spend is the third.
I doubt it. The Nordics have been cashless for a long time and the personal inconvenience in the transition was essentially none. It went by pretty much unnoticed and I don't think many people miss cash or wants to go back.
Now I am against a cashless society for other reasons, mainly ideological, but claiming it's less convenient feels odd.
The nordics will not always be a democracy (same for every country/people), then they will regret it. That may be 10 years from now or 200 years from now.
With cash being the default for thousands of years of history and everything, and card meaning card fees, tracking, tied to a bank, and so on, it totally makes sense.
1. You argue cashless is annoying because you have to remember your card/phone in addition to cash.
2. I countered that you could equally say that cash is bad because I have to remember cash in addition to my card/phone. Which makes them at worst equal. You just have to remember whichever one is accepted.
3. Except - as I stated and you highlighted - that is not really the case. Almost everywhere accepts card - more than accept cash, so not only is cashless equal to cash, it is better.
(From a "having to remember things" point of view anyway.)
I'll clear it up, cashless is annoying because instead of being able to walk outside with a couple of bills, I have to bring my whole phone or wallet with me because some vendors just don't accept cash. Sometimes I even prefer paying with cash because it helps the vendor avoid the fees they have to pay for each digital transaction.
> instead of being able to walk outside with a couple of bills, I have to bring my whole phone or wallet
That still doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 99% of people carry their phone with them pretty much everywhere so you're already a special snowflake.
Secondly, instead of "a couple of bills" you have to carry... a single card. Wow. So much hassle.
> Sometimes I even prefer paying with cash because it helps the vendor avoid the fees they have to pay for each digital transaction.
Yeah I have more sympathy with this but my feeling is vendors prefer cashless even with the fees - at least debit card fees (~0.5%), maybe not credit card fees - because cash isn't free. You have to spend time taking it to the bank, dealing with employee theft, etc. etc.
> Secondly, instead of "a couple of bills" you have to carry... a single card. Wow. So much hassle.
In case I’d get robbed, I would only loose a couple of bucks vs losing my debit card (which does not require PIN until a limit). I live in a bas neighborhood, so walking outside when it’s dark side is not fun. So having no valuables on me feels good.
> Yeah I have more sympathy with this but my feeling is vendors prefer cashless even with the fees - at least debit card fees (~0.5%), maybe not credit card fees - because cash isn't free.
I have the totally opposite experience, most small shop owners I’ve spoken to have often asked me if I had cash instead of card, some would even give better deals and include free fries If I had cash in me, it’s on that level and one if the reasons why I often prefer cash now. I actually had a discussion regarding this with my local barbershop and he told me how much he hates people who pay with cars because of those fees he has to pay.
I had no idea about CBDC, had to look it up. It’s an interesting concept.
This has happened to me while living and travelling in the Northern Triangle of Central America in the 2010s which at that time were the unsafest not-at-war countries of the world.
Depending on the time of the day and location I just ran errands with only the smallest amount of cash needed and an old phone. And sometimes I kept an emergency $1 bill to pay the bus in my socks . If I was robbed, the most they could get from me was the small cash I had on hand.
As money became electronic, organized crime changed tactics, and instead of only taking money from victims, they'd take the victims to ATMs to withdraw all their funds. Banks then reacted by limiting withdrawals at about $300 in ATMs depending on the risk of the area.
Yes this is one way it shows. Another is that there can be shops in your street that have no apparent viable business, but they exist only for the laundering. They are run by poor people. Every once in a while the real criminal (boss) shows up. It can cause all sorts of problems in good neighborhoods. Without cash, these problems would not exist.
I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.