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Donkey Kong: A Record of Struggle (shmuplations.com)
147 points by msephton 11 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 44 comments



They discovered a quantized version of Newton’s law because their processor had no floating point unit. Pretty creative.

> S(0)=0 (reference position) S(1)=v₀-½g (initial velocity) S(t+2)=2S(t+1)-S(t)-g

Thus, the value of the previous screen frame (t+1) is added twice, the value of the screen frame before that one (t) is subtracted, and the constant g is subtracted.



It's really interesting. I wonder why they didn't use a lookup table?


At first glance it looks like they applied a linear multi step method to estimate the value of their equation of movement. There is a huge and ever-growing number of LMM formulas and I don't think Donkey Kong placed a premium on minimizing any kind of error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_multistep_method


Four developers on one computer that had no hard drive. Not uncommon for the time, but looking back it sounds like hell


Being from that time: it was't.

We spend much "downtime" learning, reading and writing (pseudo) code. Remember, coding was new, access to existing "examples" close to zero, so we had to figure a lot of stuff out.

Paper (no whiteboards either) was an excellent way to tinker, show off and bounce off ideas.

I still find myself writing / drawing a lot before I actually touch a keyboard.


Old fart here... when I got into computers it was with Commodore PETs at school. Hard disk? Ha. We shared a single CBM 8050 among a roomful of computers. It could be hotplugged, no biggie, if you needed to save your program you got a turn on the disk drive, put your personal floppy in...

What was considered cheap in those days was printer paper. No problem at all to print out your entire program for going through and editing - with a pencil! - on the long school bus ride. Sounds awful now, but it wasn't, it was just different. Besides, at 40x25 character screen resolution, you couldn't keep that much code "in view" anyway.


It’s (still) extremely cumbersome to work out complicated math/physics problems on a computer, be it Maple, Mathematica, Matlab, or something else, so this doesn’t sound so crazy.

Relatedly, you can’t easily comment code willy nilly even with 120 char lines, so paper still has a lot of freedom anyway


It's amazing what programmers were able to do back in those days without all the modern programming tools and languages and frameworks we have now. They didn't even have version control!

Yet they managed to crank out code much faster, and with far fewer bugs, than today's programmers can seem to manage, and higher performing too for anything that didn't require heavy computation (these days, there's noticeable lag, sometimes up to 1s, between typing characters and seeing them on the screen; this never happened in the 80s).


> Yet they managed to crank out code much faster, and with far fewer bugs

There was simply a lot less of it. An Atari cartridge had 2kB of ROM. ZX Spectrum had 48kB of RAM for programs. Elite was targeted at the 32kB BBC. The normalized bugs/line and lines/day probably don't look as different as you think.

The real question is: how much of modern code is really new features, how much is dealing with more complicated and less efficient platforms, and how much is busywork from one faction or another within the company?


> Yet they managed to crank out code much faster, and with far fewer bugs

Way way way less lines of code, and they were coding something to run on a single type of machine. They also made heavy use of manual testing before release, because once it was released it was incredibly difficult (and costly) to patch.

If you've ever peaked underneath the hood of games like Final Fantasy 4, it's a lot of spaghetti code held together by duct tape.


In truth, the Atari 8-bits I used from that era had trouble keeping up with fast typing and would drop characters, which is worse than just a delay.

The nature of the development process then was necessarily centered on hardware development: the amount of computing logic to run Pong was a small multiple of the amount needed to run a contemporaneous electromechanical pinball, and the amount needed to run Donkey Kong was a few multiples of that for Pong: but the basic premise of "video games" remained close to the pinballs, still built on using timers, state flags and simple lookup tables to do almost everything, which is why the jump arc computation is notable for going into the realm of a real simulation and allowing the software aspect to "flex" a little more. They could have gone with a binary jump using a timer - there were games well after Donkey Kong that did that.

The problems we face now are primarily ones of technical dependency in that configuring a system that does well at typing tests or any other specific metric is weighed against being able to access the standards that require a slower path - we generalized everything to USB and Unicode and JSON and other "not all that fast" standards, and we don't want to give them up, but they also lead to software that is complicated and hard to build.


I think a good comparison is how long it takes for people to make games on the PlayDate. The PlayDate has a weak processor by modern standards, but it also has a lot of modern little touches and a modern SDK.

Yoyozo[1] is a recently released PlayDate game. The first toot about working on it on Mastodon[2] is from Sept. 5 and it got into the PlayDate store on Nov. 21. Elsewhere the creator said he put about a month into it. So a lone dev working on a legacy-like platform can launch a game in a month. I think Yoyozo doesn't have quite as much depth as Donkey Kong (not as many screens, no enemies), but it was made by a lone dev, so it probably all balances out. I think people are basically still capable of the same level of output, maybe a little higher, if they're willing to work on a limited platform.

[1]: https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2023/11/21/yoyozo-how-i-made...

[2]: https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@gingerbeardman/1110136615210...


Playdate development in C is a ton of fun and I can't recommend it enough. it strikes an excellent balance of constraints to design around (two colors, low resolution, limited Sharp LCD fill speed, no threading, small stack size, ten-second watchdog limit per frame) while still being accessible by modern standards (64-bit ARM architecture, plenty of RAM, extensive API). if you've burned out on modern game development, it's a welcome breath of fresh air.


I believe the ARM chip in Playdate is 32-bit, but yes to the rest!


ah yeah you're right, my bad


Fun to see you mention my game as I also submitted this Donkey Kong link! I worked on YOYOZO from September 5th to 27th (23 days) I submitted it to Catalog on 21st. The final week of the stretch was polishing. I did another day or maybe three to add score boards just prior to launch. It was in review/queue longer than it was in development, by far!


> Yet they managed to crank out code much faster, and with far fewer bugs

That seems like a pretty wild claim, no?


Substantiated only by nostalgia.


In the article they mention only one bug was found in the game, and they fixed it by reducing a bounds check by a single pixel (so, likely an off-by-one error).


> Yet they managed to crank out code much faster, and with far fewer bugs, than today's programmers can seem to manage

The reality is that today's programmers, especially in the big corporations, spend a lot of time not doing programming. It isn't too uncommon that something that takes a half decent programmer a couple of days to bang out is preceded by several weeks of running around trying to get approvals and clarifications on different levels.

I guess earlier more trust (and responsibility) was given to the individual developers to decide what to do and how to do it, kind of like in smaller companies nowadays, and with the correct developers that enables a much more productive environment with little to no overhead.


> far fewer bugs,

Donkey Kong arcade had multiple bugs, one of which was bad enough they had to rush out a fix: https://twitter.com/MarioBrothBlog/status/115587981172793344... (see also https://tcrf.net/Donkey_Kong_(Arcade)#25m_Jump_Bug, and the "kill screen" was never fixed)


> ...used the Z80 chip... Although integer multiplication instructions were available...

Minor error there (maybe he remembered wrong), but the Z80 doesn't have multiplication instructions, it has to be implemented in code (e.g. see: https://wikiti.brandonw.net/index.php?title=Z80_Routines:Mat...)


Having enjoyed King of Kong, Man vs Snake: The Long and Twisted Tale of Nibbler seemed to be set in the same cinematic universe. Very similar.


> Miyamoto's game proposal was at that time called "Popeye's Beer Barrel Attack Game."

Brilliant, I will never be able to unseen that now, the rolling barrels of beer.


I never realized how influential King Kong was until I read Console Wars (https://amzn.to/3TnSFws)

The game essentially saved Nintendo of America and introduced some of the most valuable characters of all time.


Does anyone else have an increasingly difficult time with Donkey Kong content because of how it caricatures black people? I used to love even the show as a kid but everything about it makes me feel icky today.


I played Donkey Kong in arcades in the 80s as a kid and I play it today on my MAME emulation arcade cabinet and the issue you mention has never occurred to me. Your post is the first I've heard of it.

In looking at the game again right now with your post in mind, I'm still not seeing any racial undertones. I've always liked the game and still like the game today. I see you linked a video below but I've decided not to look at it. I can appreciate and respect that you may see some association that I don't. Perhaps what you see requires a certain prior sensitization to see or perhaps it's open to differing interpretation by reasonable people. Either way, I'm choosing to keep my experience of a classic game I've always liked untainted. I'm just replying because you asked if others see what you see.

(Note: I've only ever played original arcade DK and DK Jr, no console versions.)


Thank you for taking the time to give a genuine response to the question!

Do I understand you correctly though? You don't want to watch the video because either A) you are unmoved by it and have wasted your time or B) you realise the author has a point and your childhood memories are tainted?

I am kind of surprised by that if I'm reading it right. If someone told me that one of my childhood games had become a damaging franchise I'd want to risk my memories and be sure that I wasn't doing anyone any harm.


> A) you are unmoved by it and have wasted your time

It's this one. I am a reasonable person who is deeply familiar with the original coin-op game and, IMHO, there is nothing remotely racist in it. I see from other posts that apparently the bulk of the claims you're citing are related to later console games which I have never seen, have no opinion on and which are off-topic from the content of this thread since the OP is entirely about the creation of the original arcade game over 40 years ago.

> a damaging franchise I'd want to risk my memories and be sure that I wasn't doing anyone any harm.

I categorically disagree that playing a 40 yr old arcade game beloved by millions on my personal MAME cabinet can possibly do "harm" or "damage" anyone. I find the suggestion ludicrous but based on that wording and framing, I suspect you and I have profoundly divergent world views and that further engagement will A) Not be productive, and B) Violate HN's prohibition on culture war topics (which I 100% support).


I'm a white person who is unaffected by these issues in a direct way but I've heard from people who do feel affected by it that it can be harmful. Their perspective is one I can't live, so I can only listen. It's surprising for me that others would not be open to listening and I find it depressing that their feelings on this are villainized and dismissed here as being part of a "culture war."

Of course it's easy to categorically deny with what they say if you refuse to listen, and I'm sure everything seems like a war when you start putting people into factions that can inherently not agree and are inherently unable to talk through issues with a mutual openness.


I always figured it was a play on King Kong. Right down to the trope of the giant gorilla absconding with the girl.


King Kong never played bongos or ate watermelons for health though.


I don't remember this in Donkey Kong. most of this was introduced in DK64, with that said.

Yes DK does play the bongos and Diddy plays rap and Dixie plays the electric guitar and Lanky plays the trombone, and Chunky plays the triangle.

Also Feynman played the bongos, It's a famous gift for children because its cheap. blacks don't own bongos, nobody owns any instrument.


Bongos are Afro-cuban instruments. Anyone can play them but they have a real world history that shouldn't be denied. If Donkey Kong played bongos then that might in and of itself be fine, but when coupled with multiple other nods to black cultures then it becomes clear that at some point the franchise directors moved towards portraying him and his family using black stereotypes. It's not unreasonable to draw attention to this or to call it what it is.


Is Bart Simpson black then? Urban culture is culture.


No, Bart Simpson is not black. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with that? The Simpsons have leaned so heavily into racial stereotyping that they've had to entirely remove certain problematic characters such as Apu. Many other characters and character behaviours have been questioned or come under criticism since the show's conception. Bart's appropriation of the tropes of black culture may or may not be problematic, but that's not the discussion here. Why bring it up?

I think that if you're comparing a Bart and DK then the distinction between a 10 year old boy experimenting with his identity and a literal gorilla who came to fame by kidnapping blonde white women should be quite clear. Of all the main Nintendo characters there is only one who expresses himself using tropes from black culture and that is the woman stealing gorilla. Peach never raps, Toad never walks around with a boombox. For some people that's interesting, for some it's weird, and for some it's problematic because they live in a world where stereotyping of black people harms their experience of life day to day. For others it's totally not noteworthy, and maybe it's not noteworthy for the people of Hacker News, but isn't it intellectually engaging to consider these things?

When children grow up with these representations of a The Other or of The Self then it affects their perceptions. That shouldn't be contentious for anyone who has undergone the process of socialisation.

For many children the Donkey Kong franchise might be one of their their primary means of the exposure to black culture.

Black culture is culture, as you say, but no culture is free from politics; that's just an inherent part of any culture existing within a wider global geopolitik.

Again, I'm not sure what you were implying, so please clarify if you need to. You say: Black culture is culture... So what? Is any representation of that culture in, the hands of anyone, free from criticism, by basis of being culture?

I think that when we're speaking on a forum like this, with the knowledge that certain demographics are underrepresented among us, we have a moral duty to ask ourselves what doors are being closed and in what ways we might be closing them through our choices.


I always associated bongos with that 50/60s salsa music and Desi Arnaz https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000789/?ref_=tt_cl_t_2.


Do you have a screenshot? I didn't even recall that there were black people in Donkey Kong.


Here's a video[0] about it that I was glad to find when I first considered these aspects of the franchise. There's quite a lot of talk about it elsewhere online.

There are no black people indeed, the characters are mostly animals. The issue is that the primate characters are portrayed using negative stereotypes of black culture.

0: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KRYKE3MUMo4


I was thinking about YouTube video essays lately. That you can probably throw a dart and you would probably find some video (30m+ long) about how, actually, Friends (sitcom) is a show about Dark Triad personality trait people who are terrorizing Central Perk and Manhatten.[1]

That said though I’ll give it a fair listen.

EDIT: He presents a good argument.

[1] Or maybe I once watched a video on that topic and I’m disremembering it as a hypothetical, hah.


I think you're entirely right that one can find supporting videos on YouTube for just about anything one can argue. But I was never arguing that my argument was valid because a YouTube video agreed with me, there's no appeal to authority here.

I was asked to provide a screenshot from Donkey Kong related media to support my point and I felt that a video showing multiple media from the Donkey Kong franchise with commentary from a gamer of colour would satisfy that requirement, while also helping inform the readers here of issues at play and, further, letting those issues be directly communicated by someone from the affected community.

Like you say, the narrator makes a good argument, and there is much good discussion about this on the wider web for anyone that wishes to look further into it. I wouldn't have shared a YouTube video to HackerNews if I didn't believe in its content.

I raise these issues when I can because I feel that many people here are working in industries at the forefront of what is shaping our culture and it sometimes saddens or even frightens me that these topics are seen as taboo in our community. If we can derail every other post with bikeshedding about CSS issues on the author's website, then it would be nice if we could sometimes take the time to look at the power of software to perpetuate racial inequality as well.


that's about Donkey Kong Country - a completely different game to Donkey Kong.


The video touches on different iterations of Donkey Kong from the franchise's history over the last 30 years. The racially charged elements are not unique to a single game or show.

I understand that this article is about Donkey Kong but my question was about the wider franchise. I was only asking if others in this community feel the same discomfort with the franchise, as a whole, that I do, to the point that it becomes increasingly difficult to engage with.

I know that race and gender issues are generally frowned upon here but I believe my feelings are valid and I approached the subject with curiosity and without judgement of others.




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