It's not the standard that made it reliable for you, it's the company that made/maintained the chargers. The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network.
> > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network.
> They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement.
Except your sentence there exactly explains why Electrify America is probably the network people love to hate on the most (myself included given the number of times I've visited non-functioning EA chargers), while the Supercharger network is leaps and bounds more reliable.
Electrify America was essentially forced into existence as punishment to VW because of dieselgate. Which means it's not surprising that the folks in charge of EA had very little motivation to provide a stellar experience. Contrast this with Tesla, who sees the Supercharger network as an integral part of their business of selling cars.
As the owner of a non-Tesla EV who loves my car but is very wary of 3rd party charging networks, you really have to hand it to Tesla for their work in building out the Supercharger network. They had the foresight to realize how critically important a good charging network would be, so much so that they are now able to dictate the "North America Charging Standard" (which given the history of how that name came about takes a ton of chutzpah, but that's a discussion for another post...) for the rest of the automakers - basically all the other EV makers have announced transitions to NACS.
So, yes, it may be debatable to call the other charging networks "fly-by-night" companies, but I'll definitely agree with the "shitty" aspect. There are just tons and tons and tons of non-functioning chargers, and the comparison with the reliability of Superchargers is extremely stark.
The issue is maintaining already installed chargers. Lot of chargers are either physically broken or rated for low charging rate because something inside is broken. And no one fixing it in months. Changing the connector won't fix the issue when chargers are not fixed for months on end.
People, especially techie types here on HN, tend to simply forget or not know to begin with just how many service technicians and laborers are necessary to keep all this tech running.
Just because you can imagine it does not mean it's possible, folks.
The problem really is the companies. EA essentially rushed their product out the door knowingly with substandard (both in quality and actual standardization) that's led to their issues.
They are simply not built to last and their bespokeness leads them to be difficult to repair.
This isn't a case of oversimplifying, especially considering we can look across the street at a company who is doing exactly what we're asking for.
> Reston, VA (April 17, 2018) – Electrify America announced today it has selected key charging equipment suppliers – ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet – to jointly deploy its new ultra-fast electric vehicle (EV) charging systems throughout the United States.
Yes, that's _exactly_ the issue. When they need to service a station, they need just the right parts. That's also from 2018. There a lot of chargers built before then. I read an article not too long ago where the new CEO was explaining that the reliability issue is, essentially, they rushed to get the first generations of chargers out so fast that they had to source parts from everywhere and they weren't all well tested and there are a lot of different types.
The result is that each station is basically bespoke and they have to find just the right replacement parts to fix a broken station. The result is that you have to send a technician out to find the broken part and then wait to get a replacement instead of the technician having replacement parts on hand (because there are too many that it might be).
That's why they are ripping out old stations and replacing them with new ones.
Contrast this with Tesla who built everything in-house and has an exceptional service record with their charging network. Vertical integration has its perks.
In only 11 years Tesla built the world's best EV charging network to cover the entire US interstate system, highways, major cities, important destinations, and more recently even medium and small cities.
I'm confident Tesla can expand their network to cope with additional demand and in a relatively short amount of time. Expanding an existing site is usually a lot faster and cheaper as well.
Network effects drive Tesla sales. In this case, the network of chargers. I was a Tesla passenger for a short trip from Seattle to Vancouver and the charging at the Tesla "station" was quick and easy. Other stations were a roll of the dice and highly inconvenient.
Relying on a single company seems like bad news to me. Imagine if your car could only refuel at Chevron stations.
I get it that other charging networks also have the NACS connector. But if the argument is that they are unrealiable and people shouldn't bother, then Tesla will be the only game in town.
This gets at the core as to why I've not (yet) bought an EV - it's absolutely insane that my car purchase dictates the people I have to associate with for refueling. As you point out - I would never buy a car having the stipulation I could only refuel at Chevron stations.
I'll stick with my dino juice so long as Tesla is the only viable option available for recharging. I'd think about getting an EV for a local commuter car where I can always charge at home, but they're still too expensive for that - though that should change as the used EV market becomes more developed and mature.
Teslas can easily charge at other branded recharging stations; mostly you never see it as there is no point. The Tesla ones are good. There are adaptors to all / most public charging stations for cheap. I keep a few, and my wall-charger (for 120/220v outlets) in the front-trunk.
Non-Teslas charging at Tesla stations is new/not really a thing though.
Not to mention that EV owners charge at their house overnight 99% of the time so the notion that you have to use "one brand" is a gross misunderstanding
True. I installed a L2 charger for <$1k all in, and basically only charge once, maybe twice a week at $0.115/kwh. Superchargers are generally $0.33-60/kwh.
You can charge Teslas at other charging stations. It’s just that other chargers are inconvenient and unreliable. You usually need an adapter. You have to pull out a credit card and maybe install an app on your phone. With the Tesla chargers you just plug in and everything’s billed automatically.
Also Tesla’s navigation automatically adds charging stops for superchargers. You don’t have to do much thinking. Just drive the car (usually on autopilot on the freeway), follow the directions, and every few hours you’re at a charging station next to some restaurants, grocery stores, or pretty landmarks. The view from the charger at Twin Falls, Idaho is particularly beautiful.
I have a Tesla here in Australia, and have 3-4 charging apps and 2 RFID(!) cards -- it does feel like a backwards step. There are gaps in the Tesla supercharger network in parts here which mean you have to rely on the other networks for some long distance trips.
To be clear, they pretty much already do. There are only a handful of companies that require an app install. Filtering chargers nearby by company/tap-to-pay is probably a few months away from one of the mapping apps.
They aren't really, it is just that modern engines are incredibly tolerant of what you put in them. Some survey found that the different octane tanks get mis-filled a large portion of the time with other octanes or higher ethanol ratings. Even within an octane rating what is in there varies a lot. The changes needed to make a four stroke work on propane is very small. And an old diesel engine will run on almost any liquid that will burn but not evaporate at stp. The cars will get smarter and be able to do better with different voltages at some point.
A lot of new cars are "Flex-fuel" and will take literally anything short of diesel. They just adjust timing to the octane rating.
In the bay area there's a lot of E85 fuel stations which are ~half the price per gallon (~$2.50) and work with these cars. Slightly less milage but the price difference more than makes up for it. If your car has the 'flex-fuel' sticker you may as well take the cheaper fuel imho.
Gasoline pumps standardized because a nozzle is relatively simple. And then use a smaller nozzle for cars that only take unleaded gasoline and you can't put leaded gas into the wrong car.
On the other hand, diesel nozzles didn't really standardize until the last 10 years or so. Mostly diesel stations used the old (larger) standard, unless it was catering to trucks and then it's a really big nozzle for bigger flow. But sometimes you'd get an unleaded gasoline style nozzle, cause those would fit in diesel cars too, and there's no fume recovery system. But then VW and other diesel car makers started putting in rube goldberg systems to try to reduce the amount of gasoline you can put in a diesel car... And then the diesel pumps with the smaller size nozzle became difficult to use, so they've probably been replaced.
OTOH, a funnel is an easy, low tech fix to a nozzle problem. Can't really adapt a charging socket so easily.
Gas and Oil didn't start off as standardized (nothing does) - got there over time. I'm sure EV will get there - eventually. Needs a standards group like ASTM maybe.
This will require government regulation, which won't happen until there are enough angry EV drivers to get political attention, and then enough political will to overcome the corporate lobbyists fighting standardization. Remember standardization is good for consumers and bad for producers. Look how long it took to force apple to use usb-c chargers.
This doesn’t make sense. There’s already a standard everyone has adopted (NACS). Tesla has chargers which will start becoming available to other drivers next year. Other companies will compete or die.
Buying a recently manufactured Leaf today is buying technical debt for no good reason. Stuck with a Chademo charging port that has a shrinking installed infrastructure base, an interior that hasn't been significantly upgraded in many years, and a heating system that is sabotaged to the most inefficient heating possible, electric strip heating unless you buy the top SV Plus trim.
For some definition of "reasonable" I guess. Are they under $4k? That's about my limit for what I spend on a car. I have good luck finding reliable ICE vehicles in that price range.
99% of the charging is at home anyway. People fixate too much on the public charge options (unless you are driving hundreds of miles a day, in which case the public chargers brands are probably the least of your worries).
Fair point, I guess I meant "99% of the time", not 99% by energy or miles. I.e., I plug in whenever I'm at home and I only use a tesla charger maybe once a month (but that charge session consumes way more power than the average session because I'm putting more miles in).
This seems backwards. You're demanding that people use alternatives in the market because of competition. But competition is what we have, and the market is choosing winners and losers. So... you're demanding we use the losers' products. So they can compete? Which they... aren't?
Yes, that's why the NACS announcements are good for us Tesla owners. A lot of Tesla owners are worried about cars from other manufactures filling up Tesla charging stations. That's probably a valid concern, but I'm happy about the reduced reliance on Tesla.
Teslas aren’t limited to charging at superchargers.
Saying there is a “reliance on Tesla” makes it sound like they are. That’s going to confuse or mislead some people, maybe not your intent, but it will.
We already live in a world where Teslas can charge at any charger and (recent tentative changes aside) other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. It’s good that this is changing but the only way it’s good for Tesla owners is that money is going to be raining down to further build out the supercharger network.
Seriously, especially with Tesla! I'm imagining a scenario where this becomes the standard and then Elon decides to charge everyone $2.99 per-use or some such nonsense.
EVGo already charges a $3.99 session fee. I made the mistake of topping up a EV rental without reading the fine print.
BTW, Tesla charges $12.99/mo for access to the SuperCharger network for non-Tesla brands. The $/kW rate is pretty competitive and just .05-.10 higher than the residential depending on time of day.
What do you mean the Tesla standard is coming to most brands?
I was under the impression that Tesla is introducing new stations that have CCS chargers. Either with multiple cables or an adapter. You start the station using the Tesla mobile app.
To be more precise, NACS uses the Tesla physical connector but the CCS signalling protocol.
In consequence:
1: Cars with CCS Type 1 connectors can use a dumb physical adapter to connect to a NACS charger.
2: Older Tesla's (prior to ~2020 depending on model) need a $400 retrofit to be able to charge at non-Tesla NACS chargers. (The $400 retrofit includes a CCS Type 1 adapter, so it might eventually be cheaper without it).
To clarify #2: the retrofit is the newer controller board that speaks CCS. This is the same thing they've been offering as a "CCS upgrade". It's otherwise unrelated to the NACS switchover, though obviously those are CCS-protocol devices and thus work with it.
Tesla has the "Magic Dock", which is the built-in CCS adapter that unlocks when you use the app with a non-Tesla car. This is rolling out in a few places.
The other thing is that "NACS" (North American Charging Standard, the same physical plug that Teslas use but with the CCS protocol, with some minor backwards compatible changes for optional higher voltages) is being adopted by almost every EV brand, beginning ~2025. Further, these same brands have committed to providing or selling NACS-CCS adapters to existing cars so they can use Tesla chargers, even without buying a new model of car.
You're like 1 year behind the news. Last year Tesla was adding CCS chargers. They have like 5 now. This year, Ford and others promised to use Tesla plugs on their vehicles and Tesla promised to open their network to other manufactures. "Old" CCS vehicles will use CCS-Tesla adapters.
Good news is Tesla standard is coming to most car brands.
Bad news is it's not here yet.