Yeah, and what do you know, they were right. Tesla utterly squandered their first-mover advantage. I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid) at charging stations and such, all lamenting the completely absurd quirks of their car’s UX, and the ridiculous mismatch between their advertised battery life and what they get in reality. I’ve got a non-Tesla EV and I think that it’s great. So do plenty of others. Given what I’ve experienced in Teslas, I am completely happy with GM’s characterisation. Everyone else will flatten Tesla because ultimately the premise that people want this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people.
I have a model Y lease that’s up in March. Can’t wait to get rid of the stupid thing.
It’s amazingly fun to drive and very fast. Other than that, the car is a pile of garbage. The range is about half what’s rated, the charging speed is about half what’s advertised, the build quality is terrible, and the service is nonexistent.
True story: the alignment on the poorly designed trunk is way off. Took it to the dealer, and the said they don’t fix teslas. Actually true. Directed me to find a third party body shop. Didn’t bother, will return it broken and I’m sure I will get absolutely hosed by them. They treat their customers exactly how Elon views humanity: expendable.
Tesla could fix this by opening the car up to the modding community.
Let people mod the screens to their hearts desire. And let people mod the official app too. Make a big warning that Tesla isn't responsible for any behaviour caused by mods, and make a simple 'safe mode' that disables all mods and takes it back to stock.
You can slap 'non responsible' all over it, when a Tesla runs into a pedestrian (or rather another car as the US doesn't car about dead pedestrians) and the cause is found to be a moded screen, the internet won't care about 'non responsible' Tesla would absorb the usual shit storm.
Even allowing an App-Store on a platform like that is very risky business and that's why Tesla hasn't done it. Musk has been thinking about an AppStore for 10+ years now, but the practical issue with it are just to great.
> I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid)
This would be impossible in California; perfectly normal people who don't particularly like Elon Musk own Teslas here.
> Everyone else will flatten Tesla because ultimately the premise that people want this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people.
Unfortunately, all the other carmakers seem to be putting a bunch of software and spyware in their cars as well. :/
Seems pretty hard to get a decent, working, analog car these days.
> Seems pretty hard to get a decent, working, analog car these days.
Its not hard. Its basically impossible and illegal specially for a new car. New regulation require a huge amount of electrical safety equipment. And the are already regulation to push that up even more, any new car designed in the last couple years has even more.
This is such comment is just complete nonsense and reflects a total non understanding of the car market.
Saying Tesla 'squandered the first mover-advantage' is just so far wrong that its mind boggling that somebody could actually think that.
Tesla went from a company selling 1000 cars a year to a company that is approaching selling 2 million cars a year. They are large and continue to have growth and despite massive investment in infrastructure and factories they are more profitable then most car companies.
So to go from not existing to one of the most profitable companies in the industry is 'squandering' the first-mover advantage? What the fuck.
And their 'first mover-advantage' is actually tiny and barley relevant. Before they even any volumes of cars many other companies already had EV as well. For traditional OEMs taking an existing platform and converting them to electric wasn't hard. Before Tesla had its own battery factories (with Panasonic) nothing Tesla did wasn't something that could be replicated by other companies.
Car industry is a heavy capital industry, this is not tech where a first mover advantage means you can capture the market.
> I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid) at charging stations and such, all lamenting the completely absurd quirks of their car’s UX, and the ridiculous mismatch between their advertised battery life and what they get in reality.
Wow you had a view conversation. We should defiantly take that as evidence. Tesla has sold 5 million cars so far, and you have had how many conversations?
Also, there are actual statistics on these things, consumer satisfaction, brand loyalty and so on. And guess what, Tesla is always on the top of those lists. So it seems that that the 'horrible' UI isn't actually as bad as you suggest or at least it doesn't stop people from buying more Teslas, recommending it to their friends and being satisfied with the experience.
> Given what I’ve experienced in Teslas, I am completely happy with GM’s characterisation.
Tesla is building better EV for cheaper at higher volume wiht higher profit margins then GM. Its true GM doesn't play with batteries, because their 'Ultium' battery has been a complete disaster of delay after delay leading to even Ford has overtaken them.
Tesla has 60% of the American EV market, they have like 5%. But I guess its always makes people feel good that are crushing you.
This is like BlackBarry calling Apple 'the toy company'.
> this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people.
Maybe don't conclude from your own experience. The reality is simply not moving in that direction. Even GM/Ford pickup trucks have been massively moving in the direction of more software. If you look at the China market as a leading indicator the amount compute and feature in the car is increasing. The most popular best reviewed EV are modern cars like Tesla or the Polestar. While traditional cars like VW ID.4 are having massive software problem and VW sales in China are doing badly because of that.
There are also company who have embraced a traditional interior organization and they don't exactly run away with the market either.
So really, what the evidence for this position? Having followed this market for many years now, I don't see it.
Computer people on HN have been harping on this issue since literally 2014 and the Model S, and somehow Tesla is still around.
And I personally wouldn't want it either (I don't even own a car anyway) but that just isn't a relevant data-point.
I think the really enlightening factor here is the actual data on numbers of complaints per 100k vehicles sold. Look at those numbers for all the top makes and models in the U.S. Tesla is always at the worst end of that list, however you sort the numbers.
Yet when you transplant those same numbers into China or other countries, the same number of complaints per 100k vehicles puts them at the top of the list -- because everyone else is so much worse.
Tesla is a case study in doing all the things because you have to do something, and this is something, and therefore you have to do this.
Some of the ideas that Tesla has come up with are great, but the execution has been piss poor. And some of their ideas have been truly horrible, like using all their customers as lab rats so that they can gather more data more quickly and trick more people into also becoming more lab rats.
But as bad as Tesla is, I don't see any other way to force the entrenched car companies around the world to make the kind of changes that have to be made for this planet to survive. We have to get off fossil fuels, and if that means that Tesla has to destroy the rest of the industry to do it, then I think maybe that's a case where we need the devil we don't know (as well) to help kill the devil we do know (better).
Tesla is overestimated, not underestimated. They haven't released a new car in over 3 years, on top of a incredibly small and bland model range to begin with. Several other companies are into their Nth generation of electric pickups before Tesla has even released their first. Almost all other car makers are going electric, some with close to a century of experience building cars and massive model ranges. Tesla "got there first" and has a small lead in battery tech and charging networks, but that lead is fading fast.
> their Nth generation of electric pickups before Tesla has even released their first
The Cybertruck is about to come out this year, the production line is literally running with 1000s of people working there.
Ford has a truck out but the numbers aren't exactly gangbusters. GM has 1 with totally insignificant sales, basically a novelty item so they can say the have a product. Stellantis has sold non. Neither Toyota nor anybody else has an electric pickup. Rivian has one but they are also a small startup that has a lot of issues with scaling and finances.
Claiming that Tesla is so far behind is pretty much nonsense. And even if GM releases another pickup first, their Ultium battery is having massive issues and they barley produce any volume anyway, look at their Lincoln.
People have to remember that the pickup market in the US is basically 2 million vehicles a year. This year about 100k-120k will be electric.
Tesla has a huge factory with integrated battery production, that line has much higher capacity then any of the lines currently being set up for pickup EV. Ford is lacking batteries as they were very late in setting up their own battery factory and that will make it hard for them to scale the F-150 and if they do they wont have batteries for their other EV lines.
> They haven't released a new car in over 3 years
They have opened 2 new factories, and have made their car into the most sold and most profitable car in the world. And somehow that's a failure?
> Almost all other car makers are going electric, some with close to a century of experience building cars and massive model ranges.
Its funny how the goal post moves. It used to be that Tesla would never be able to build a car at volume and they suck at manufacturing. Now both VW and Toyota have publicly stated how brilliant Tesla is at producing cars at volume so that argument simply doesn't hold water anymore. Now this is a new one, 'these company have 100 years of experiance in manufacturing, no way Tesla can do it' is out of the water.
So now we have moved on to 'these companies have 100s of years of experience in manufacturing multiple different cars' so Tesla will never be able to do that.
Have you ever asked yourself why Tesla hasn't interdicted new models? Do you really think it would have been hard for them to turn the Model 3/Y platform into a few other shapes? The reason is that batteries are the limiting factor, and if you can use all your batteries on fewer models then your overall manufacturing cost and complexity are lower. Why build a few low volume model version if your total sales aren't gone increase from that?
> Tesla "got there first" and has a small lead in battery tech and charging networks, but that lead is fading fast.
Tesla doesn't actually have that much of a lead in battery tech that is all that relevant. Tesla position in the market is not because of better batteries, that's a total misunderstanding of the market.
And their lead in charging networks is not actually getting smaller. In the US specifically their lead is actually increasing.
And their lead battery technology is actually increasing relative other car markets. Tesla is making its own battery, even if they are the same quality and price as other battery makers, not paying huge part of the value of your car to a battery maker is an advantage by itself. Tesla own battery lines have to potential to be very cheap and that combined with not paying profit to the battery maker will be a big advantage.
Nikola up to its old tricks again pretending to be Tesla 2.0. They are not, they are a company who threw lies and scams got so much money they could actually pay other companies to produce truck for them.
They are a company dead in the water with no technological advantage that is simply living of money raised in a scam. They are not Tesla 2.0, but that's certainty how they scammed all those poor consumers into buying their stock.
You mean like Elon did with Tesla? How many people have paid for FSD? How many of those cars are no longer on the road due to being too old or broken? Those people will never see FSD nor 10k they spent in it.
What happened to the robotaxies making you money so the car pays for itself? How many people bought that lie and bought a car?
