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I kinda feel bad for Unity. The company is in a bad place finacially. They're burning almost $1 billion a year and they have no good solutions to this. Either they try to increase pricing and piss off their customers, or they cut costs (which they've been doing with mass layoffs) and risk losing ground to other game engineers like Unreal.

For years the only thing really holding the company a float was their valuation. So long as investors were willing to give them money for growth and future profits they could continue to fund their loses. But now their growth is slowing and investors are less willing to pay up for growth generally what does Unity do?

I've felt for a while that they'd be a likely victim of this most recent tech rut and that seems to be playing out. They have no moat, slowing growth and are burning huge amounts of cash. Unless the macro changes in their favour it's hard to how they get out of this and stay on top.



I wouldn't feel bad for their executives. They are the ones who chose the 'growth at all costs' path, and this is what you get.

They could've probably been sustainable and profitable if they mainly serviced their core audience of indie developers with a smaller amount of employees and a simpler product, but it seems they really wanted to brute force themselves into the AAA market.


I suppose. There's quite a few companies in Unity's position right now for a reason though.

For better or worse the "growth at all costs" strategy was the strategy companies like Unity had to employ for the last decade to attract investor capital so I tend to blame the low interest rate "easy money" environment more than companies like Unity being reckless.

Although that said, it does seem Unity made some stupid moves in recent years. I don't follow the company that closely, but I'm aware they made some large acquisitions funded in-part with debt during the pandemic. It's one thing taking on debt if you have a strong balance sheet, but it seems a little short-sighted for a company losing billions to use debt to fund an acquisition – especially at the elevated prices they paid during the pandemic.


> I tend to blame the low interest rate "easy money" environment more than companies like Unity being reckless.

As if the founders had no other options in life than to start companies relying on business models where you capture the market with investor money and then once you’re customers are locked in, you squeeze them as much as possible. Unreal is in the same market. They also took in investor money. They’re not in the same situation.

The people behind Unity chose to play the game. The c-suite is handsomely rewarded, and we praise their business acumen when things go right, but if things go wrong suddenly they’re victims of circumstance.

They can take ownership of their decisions.


You can’t stay small if you took a lot of investor cash. This is why self-funded companies are usually the ones who avoid these awful growth/layoff cycles.


As far as I can tell that's the most common IPO company cycle repeating itself.

The early investors and founders cash out first and the public that bought into the unsustainable growth trajectory are left with a failing company.

This is so common I truly don't understand why people still buy into these companies.


"core audience of indie developers" I thought that the engine was hugely popular beyond games? from what I recall indie games were just a small portion that used Unity.


Honestly, if they just added revenue share like Unreal does and tweaked their subscriptions a little, the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad. The uproar is a combination of a really badly announced system and details that don't seem to be ironed out properly leaving devs ripe for abuse. Plus you have one of the most tight knit communities of artists who all reacted almost as one to this announcement and have experience with abuse from gamers in terms of piracy, review bombs, refund waves and so on. I guarantee most developers would have grumbled but given in to a revenue share

I'm also completely baffled how poorly thought out this whole thing has been. Unity has been used by the likes of Nintendo, Microsoft and other massive game development studios. Do they seriously think a fee applied on retroactive sales and revenue numbers would be accepted without issue from them?


> Honestly, if they just added revenue share like Unreal does and tweaked their subscriptions a little, the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

They ran the numbers. If it was going to work they would have gone that route, but I think the problem is that the clear majority of Unity-users (indie devs) make no money anyway.

Revenue sharing with someone making $0 in revenue is pointless.


But they also aren't demanding $0.20 per install on free games. So if your game has $0 in revenue and 50,000,000,000 installs, then they still get $0.


Okay, but when we're told to share our work for free "for the exposure", we're supposed to buy that and just give it away? They wanted people to use their product for free for the exposure. Changing their mind is one thing, making it retroactive is another.


Asking someone making $0 to pay you X per download is even more pointless.


> Do they seriously think a fee applied on retroactive sales and revenue numbers would be accepted without issue from them?

Unity have not proposed a fee on retroactive sales. They have proposed a from-this-point-forward fee that applies to new sales/installs of any game made with Unity, including new sales/installs of back catalog games.


Sales and installs don't happen at the same time. If I buy a game once on Steam, I might install it on any number of unique devices. Per the Unity FAQ, every one of those installation events results in an additional bill for the game's developer.

In other words: This is absolutely a retroactive rug-pull on new installs of old sales.

Update: Because of the way they're rolling this out, the only way to avoid the retroactive license change is to immediately stop using Unity's development tools. If I were running a game studio, that's what I would do.


This is incorrect. They are basing the numbers in January based on previous install numbers, not "from this point on."

Note, it's not sales, it's installs. And it's not new installs.

That you keep saying sales really means you aren't fully informed about the changes and should spend some time researching this.


> They're burning almost $1 billion a year and they have no good solutions to this

Maybe they should have something to show for this $1B/year and take a cut of this $250B+ industry to cover the costs? They appear to have about %30 market share, so they need to capture less than %2 of the value created with their tool to break even and if they can't do that or they are providing tech for the less than average profitable part of the industry they should shift focus or reduce costs.

AFAIK it's only natural for businesses to go out of business if they can't capture more value than they consume.


(deleted)


It appears that the video gaming industry size is 242B as of this year: https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/video-ga...

None of this is attributable to engines, it's the size of the products built using the engines and it appears that the ad revenues are not included and that appears to be another $80B.

The game engine market is the market of supplying the game developers with the tech to build their games. That's where the game engine makers that spend 1B per year and hold %30 of the engine market need to charge about %2 of the products made using their engines to break even.


> They're burning almost $1 billion a year and they have no good solutions to this.

Unity acquired Weta at 1.6B. The solution is not to do this.


Not Weta FX but Digital’s Tools, Pipeline, and Engineering.

"Weta Digital’s Academy Award-Winning VFX teams will continue as a standalone entity known as WetaFX under majority ownership by Sir Peter Jackson and helmed by CEO Prem Akkaraju."¹

1- https://investors.unity.com/news/news-details/2021/Unity-Com...


Not even all of Weta - only the digital VFX bit.


Why feel bad? They're a victim of deliberate bad choices. The buck stops at the top. Nobody told Riccitiello to hit the gas pedal, nor to enrich himself by selling shares prior to a disastrous announcement, he did that all on his own.

I feel much worse for the thousands of developers he's holding a metaphorical gun to with this awful policy, who now have to stress about swapping engines.


He did? Is insider trading laws in the US non-existant? Wow


Yeah, 2,000 sold (~50,000 over the last year) out of ~3,200,000 still held, under a trading plan filed in May.


Insider trading laws exist, execs just like to ignore them. Hopefully, the SEC takes a look into his dealings considering how public this is.


They spent like 6 billion on acquisitions that don't help make their core product better. Literally just don't do that and you'd be in the green right now.


This isn't quite true as those acquisitions are paid for by stock and debt to a large extent

It's not like they bought these with a pile of $6B cash they had lying around


> stock and debt

Yes, and now they are burning tons of money due to that debt and having to make ridiculous decisions to appease the stockholders. You just stated the exact reason this whole thing is a problem.


I don't understand their refusal to make games that will make them money and showcase Unity's capabilities.

The only reason Unreal engine has so favorable license conditions is because Epic Games earn billions from Fortnite and Epic Games Store.


I'm still sad there hasn't been a new Unreal Tournament since 2007. It's all only Fortnite now.


At least we'll always have the first, best UT.


UT99 and all the Unreal games have been delisted from stores and they're shutting down the game's master server. You can still play solo or in LAN but online multiplayer is gone and there's no (legal) way to get new copies.


Man, I knew Epic delisted it from Steam out of spite but I didn't know they took it down from GOG too.


UT 99 and Quake 3 Arena came out at the same time. But UT with its modes and different game types was just amazing.


as someone who has played so much of these two games: both are incredible games, in their own way - creating/testing maps, the weapons, the movements, the game-modes, the moddability (skins, sounds, etc)...so good


Sadly, there's no way for those on Apple Silicon to play it :'(


They seem to have something in the works: https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtournament/en-US/


I fear that this is the 2014 pre-alpha that got cancelled in 2017 due to f..ing Fortnite.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Tournament_(cancelled_v...


Because to make the next Fortnite takes not just a lot of money, but luck. What if they made a game and it flopped (a techinically impressive game can definitely flop)? People will be like "oh see Unity engine is so bad, even the game from the first party doesn't sell".


but why aren't they investing in successes as they find them. There was loads of room to invest in ksp1 to try and get a chunk for themselves.


In some ways this is backwards, you could argue Fortnite was a flop and became a success because of their license conditions (pivot to cloning licensee PUBG).


Unreal has had much more favourable license terms since ue4 in 2014, which is before Fortnite and the Store. To the best of my knowledge, unreals terms have always been "good", which is one of the reasons it's so popular.


Maybe they should stop acquiring a continuous stream of startups that have nothing to do with their primary mission? I would bet only a very small proportion of Unity employees work on or even adjacent to the Unity engine.


The Unreal thing is that Unity has/had ~8,000 employees last year. Sounds like an awful lot for a mobile game engine.


Not not it's an everything engine it's the most popular engine on steam by far from a quick search, although it does leans towards indie. https://infogram.com/1d560b7e-21a1-437a-91f4-198309bf3e25 https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/game-engines-on-steam...


I’d probably bet that the majority of games on steam have less than 1000 sales, so being a popular game on Steam probably doesn’t mean much compared to being a popular game by daily active users viewing unity ads.


Someone dug into this recently, it's over 50% of steam games haven't made $1k in sales. The vast majority of steam by game count is complete trash.


The methodology on the site only includes games with a minimum popularity, so the long tail of tiny indie games isn't included. By the way, since steam has a fee to be included, aren't most of those tiny indie games over at itch.io anyway?

> Unless stated otherwise, we filtered out unreleased games, free games, those that launched with less than a $4.99 price point, and those that have fewer than 50 reviews.


That seems quite a lot. Compared to game development teams with their own engines which they have kept modern while releasing games...


To be fair, the difference here is that Unity is doing more than just an engine for a specific type of game. Rather, they are building lots of different tools for lots of different games.

For example, Larian (BG3) and Wube (Factorio) each have their own engine. They are specially built specifically for the games they are making.

Also, you say "have been kept modern" but even that is questionable. "Modern?" What does that really mean? It's "modern" enough for the game. Starfield was just released, and it was released without ray tracing.

And we are just talking about games. Unity and Unreal do more than just working on the engine for games. So yes, while it's a lot, it's not fair to compare the bespoke engine use by game companies and engines like Unity and Unreal.


How many such game development companies actually are there? I see a lot of aging engines out there, and companies that jumped to unreal, but I have by no means broad knowledge


>aging engines

Gaming companies get a lot of crap for this - it seems unfair. The OS I'm using to write this is a relative newcomer at only 30 years old. Obviously, it has changed a lot in that time, but so have the engines. Most software doesn't get rewritten, it evolves.


Certainly not an expert but top studios like Bethesda and CDPR maintain their own engines with an order of magnitude less employees. They make games too.



They also produce games that are very similar to their other games, with similar mechanics, while Unity has to support a far more diverse set of games (basically anything 2d or 3d), and presumably has to continually offer a wider set of cutting-edge features.


Given the state of Creation Engine, I wouldn't say that Bethesda maintains their engine well. CDPR is switching to Unreal. CP2077 launch issues were mainly due to their engine not being capable of handling such large games.


I know the devs of Hades have a custom engine and they are by no means a large studio


That's a 2D single-player game— it gets way harder if you're trying to emulate the feature set of Unreal/Unity

Source: game dev using unreal


Off the top of my head, there's Larian Studios (bg3), and Haemimont Games (ja3).


id Tech is pretty solid


It's not just a mobile game engine, it's an everything game engine. They support (nearly?) every platform. That does take some work.

Even so, 8000 employees does sound a lot. And if they're losing a billion per year, it sounds like they have no revenue at all.


Epic Games only had about 2,000 in 2020 and they also develop games, store front (although really slowly), so it's at least a 4x more than they need.

But also their previous monetization seems to try charge per professional developer which is a limited audience compared to consumers, especially if you want to maintain a AAA engine (which it seems Unreal is favoured still) given it seems fast pace techniques & improvements. Maybe by selling cloud servers for networking, which I think maybe they were too expensive compared to alternatives.


Between Unity’s headcount and acquisitions it’s hard to not be reminded of the dril candle tweet.


Mentioning a tweet without quoting it is kinda annoying. It isn't like it could be that long.


It's not difficult to search for it. "dril candles tweet" first result on Google.


>...for a mobile game engine.

May I ask you if you ever heard of Rust? The game, not the programming language. Online survive game, which has thousands of active players every single day since like a decade already, full 3D and quite awesome graphics I'd say. It's written in Unity.

It's wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(video_game)

A gameplay of a rather popular youtuber that does daily uploads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSXCI0rLvHg


Man, Rust is infamous for being reeeeaaaallly badly optimized

I would have picked a different game.

I remember the minutes of loading of a new world..


While I don't know the Rust code, this isn't necessarily solely a Unity problem. Unity's C# API provides a lot of footguns that game developers tend to not think about in the near term. Lots of code bases I've seen in Unity don't do a good job of caching component instances, or just never opened the profiler to see their GC is off the charts. Unity can run really well if the proper thought and care is put into it.


Loading into a new world takes a long time, but once I'm in there, I get great performance.

That said I'm in the "dozens of hours" bracket and not the "thousands of hours" one, so maybe I just haven't hit that yet.


That's not their focus at all. They're trying to be an all-things-entertainment company, currently, they are focusing on movie animation and digital character creation.


Where did you read that Unity is just a mobile game engine?

Unity supports basically all gaming platforms. Windows, Linux, Mac, PS5, Switch, XBox, etc.

There are AAA desktop games that use Unity.


Is Unity-2023 version a billion dollars better than Unity-2022, or even close to that?


Some of the stuff looks pretty cool that they are adding but would probably take a retooling of many workflows to use correctly. They had some very compelling items they were adding in that would make people pick it over others. But with those license terms. That will be a hard pass by many. My guess is they are hurting financially but took cues from their weta tool stack for installs. Where in that industry per install cost is decently normal and just rolled into a production budget. But on the games side that is not going to fly. As it is a one time cost vs recurring. I feel bad for the shops where they are 2 years in with this thing and just had the rug pulled on them.


Not at all... lots of people still run unity 2021


Only on hacker news will you find someone feeling bad for a company, of all things.


Not gonna lie, I was looking at their Q10 filing recently and I'm dumbfounded they have spent $450 million for "sales and marketing" so far this year.

ON WHAT AND WHY???


Do feel bad for them but this is a problem of their own making. Many parts of their current situation were avoidable.

That doesn't justify what they've tried to do here though. This isn't just a price increase, it's a significant price increase, and a poorly thought out "revshare" model that applies retroactively people who signed deals with them and built a business model off of the deal they signed.


Losing a billion means they spent more than that, but on what? I haven’t used unity since 2016 and never in a professional capacity but I can’t imagine anything significant was improved or added in the last year.


I'm not going to say that they spend their money wisely, but game engine development, in general, moves at breakneck speed, and unity is no exception.


I'd love to read more about "game engine development, in general, moves at breakneck speed," if you happen to know of a blog post or something or might be willing to share more.


They brought this on themselves. They never needed 7700 employees just to maintain an indie-scale game engine.

Epic maintains their far more advanced engine with 2200 people, and they also run a AAA live service game.


Epic is way more than 2200 people. It was 2000 people when I worked there almost 3 years ago.


Why'd ya leave?


Same reason anyone leaves any other job!


That reminds me. How is blender able to stay free. How is their approach different?


Blender is nonprofit and funded by donations and grants. The closest analog to this in the game engine space is Godot.


Blender is also managed exceptionally well for a FOSS project, systematically polishing up rough edges and paying close attention to the needs and desires of its userbase which no doubt inspires larger donations from more donors than FOSS projects usually have.


Their biggest marketplace (blendermarket) also directly contributes to the the Foundation as well.


It is incredible. Truly incredible. I know of no other FOSS project that comes close.


Blender is GPL2+. It's impossible to have that license and not be free. It's also basically impossible to change license.


Small nitpick: AIUI it is possible to sell binaries of a GPLv2 program, provided you keep providing source for free. (I think; IANAL, there's maybe some caveat about exactly when you have to give source and to who.) That can actually work if your users don't want to compile stuff themselves.


In theory. Show me one example (not service or support, but selling actual software). You have a better chance of winning a lottery, happens every day.

In theory, I can just walk through solid wall, using a quantum tunneling effect.

The closes thing you will find are things like blender release under GPL (i.e. pay me a money to release my commercial software under GPL, but that's not selling GPL software),

This whole line of thinking is disingenuous.


Simple mobile tools shows its definitely possible [0]. Simple gallery pro has 110k reviews, for example.

>You have a better chance of winning a lottery, happens every day.

Agreed here, though.

[0] https://www.simplemobiletools.com/


Aside from being OSS backed nonprofit, they also have a relatively small full time staff:

https://www.blender.org/about/people/


> They have no moat

How easy is for a studio to change engine? Isn't that a decent moat?


It's extremely difficult- it's going to break your pipeline and all of your programmers and tech artists essentially need to learn a new language

If you were switching Unity -> Unreal you'd honestly be better off firing your team and hiring Unreal devs


I think we're about to find out.


Maybe Godot is similar enough where you'd be able to consider this. Otherwise this move is more harmful in the long term of Unity and it's about future games and not current ones. Long term matters more, always.

It may also make AAA invest away from Unreal as it looks like a monopoly now.


So they get to hold their current customers hostages and get no new customers.


Unreal is technically orders of magnitude ahead of Unity, and they have around 4000 employees spread across multiple continents. And I'm referring to the entirety of Epic, so that's also the Fortnite teams and everybody else. Unity, by contrast, has about 8000 employees. Many companies seem to be hiring far more employees than they realistically need - often to the point of their own detriment, and I don't entirely understand why. Even for successful companies like Google, it seems unlikely that they need anywhere remotely near 180k employees.


Everything you wrote paints a familiar picture: a company whose leadership made poor financial decisions over and over. I won't judge anyone for mourning the loss of their favorite corporate entity, but I personally find it hard to feel pity knowing that they dug their own grave.


> I kinda feel bad for Unity.

I don't. They could have sold to Meta and didn't. If they didn't have a plan that didn't involve fucking their users, that's on them.


> and they have no good solutions to this

Bought by Apple or Microsoft maybe?


Both Apple and Meta would love buy Unity, but my understanding is that regulators likely wouldn't allow it.

If you haven't seen it already: https://sriramk.com/memos/zuck-unity.pdf


Unity seem like a very valuable acquisition target. Any of the American or Chinese big tech companies could put Unity to good strategic use plus a few medium sized tech companies like Adobe and Sony.


My money is on Meta. Unity powers the vast majority of VR games and is (was) the favored API for Meta's dev tools, and even Apple chose it as their only officially supported 3rd party toolkit for the Vision Pro.

Meta seems to enjoy throwing money into the VR space to subsidize it at the low-cost end, I could easily see them doing a hostile takeover of Unity "for the good of the VR space"


Apple “chose” it might be a bit misleading. While I’m sure they could’ve gone with Unreal, the outstanding lawsuits alongside the very loud negative press from Epic made it a non starter. Outside of Unreal and Unity, there aren’t a lot of options.




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