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AI and the End of Programming (bit-player.org)
46 points by 082349872349872 on Sept 13, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 38 comments



Together with my colleagues, I went from AI will replace us (programmers), to programmer using AI will replace one not using it, to it's not gonna have effect on programming industry (or at least it's not gonna have effect that is being portrayed).

I draw parallel to watching a move of adaptation of book to reading the book. Sure you can watch good adaptation of it, but the intricacies and details are lost, which you could get by reading a book. Same goes with programming with/by AI vs non-AI.

I also think we need check our biases. I found my own tweets from 2017 when Tesla unveiled Tesla Semi - I thought truckers will be replaced - given the Tesla Semi and FSD. Almost 7 years later, not only did it not replace them, we're nowhere close to those jobs being replaced. Same goes for radiologists.


Consider that this is just the beginning for LLMs, and GPT-4 is already somewhat magical. There’s no reason to believe that this already magical program can’t get exponentially better. Magic ^ X

It’s going to be a wild ride. Also consider that LLMs don’t have the “last 5%” problem that self-driving software has, where widespread use is currently untenable because humans still need to intervene and that poses safety problems. LLMs are very complimentary to a large breadth of human work, until they stop being complimentary and instead become a substitute.

Another thing I’ll say is, the investment in the already mind-blowing LLMs like GPT-4 is relatively puny, a fraction of the cost of building 1 skyscraper. What’s happening is that the market has been validated and much larger sums of $$$ are going to flood in, including into the research pipeline which can solve problems such as data “scarcity” for future AI.

Imagine a much smarter version of GPT-4, except constantly thinking like a human does (as opposed to prompt-response-wait-prompt-response…), constantly working towards some specified goal, and…placed in a robot body like those made by Boston Dynamics. That’s not even in the far future. It’s technically possible in 6-12 months.

Finally, looping back to self-driving - I think you’ve reached your conclusion too early there. Once the last 5% problem is solved for self-driving, it will be solved for everyone and forever and getting from point A to B on the road will forever be available to you by a robot chauffeur 24/7, forever deliver things to you autonomously, and improve supply chain/logistics by a lot, with downstream reduction in the price of delivered goods.


LLMs also have the last 5% problem for sure.


True, but there is a wide range of use-cases where “failure” of an LLM is tolerated, and it’s almost never safety-critical like driving is.


That’s going to depend upon deployment context. The hype around LLMs and the word AÍ has certainly been received by the general public as license for further penetration of markets. I doubt most humans are comfortable with autonomous vehicles yet we have a relentless push for the same from the worlds richest man, who insists upon foisting it upon us all. I see LLMs being deployed in wildly inappropriate scenarios at the moment, and safety critical can consist of an interruption while driving, for example. Media systems in vehicles are borderline actively dangerous IMO


I actually agree when it comes to vehicles. I personally would not use self-driving until it is further refined. On the other hand, I haven’t seen LLMs used in safety critical applications or otherwise dangerous integration of LLMs into a product or service. There is mostly upside with little downside.


Anyone who thinks AI is actually intelligent is only Almost Intelligent


It's a heck lot smarter than most humans I know


By what metric? Ability to write a regex does not appear on any IQ test I know of.


By the simple metric of being able to converse with them on various topics


Intelligence is manifested by the quality and timeliness of decisions. Talking has always been a faux demonstration of actual intelligence, for man or machine.


Very well said!

The big problem is going to be some "not so intelligent" Human making decisions based on AI/ML output without verification or even worse having AI itself make the decision.

Here is a Munk debate "AI research and development poses an existential threat" - Yoshua Bengio & Max Tegmark vs. Melanie Mitchell & Yann Lecun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=144uOfr4SYA


That’s… not true. Action and speech aren’t at odds. They’re not even clearly delineated.

Where would basic planning fit here? Is it a “faux demonstration” (??) for engineers to talk through their ideas for approaching a problem before attempting it?


Fooled me!


If IQ tests are your metric GPT-4 is already way above average.


It doesn’t reason, it isn’t intelligent. There are humans who avoid reasoning but the biological capacity for this is inbuilt.

An LLM is like asking Google to make a search results collage. It’s an entirely derivative essentializer


I run an operation which provides an open source loan tracking tool. I had a play with ChatGPT 4.0 to see if it could recreate its functionality using a natural language interface rather than our current UX.

I fed ChatGPT a bunch of dummy savings and loans transactions and then asked it to compile loan tables for named borrowers.

It worked and I was impressed. For me, this felt like a move from programming to curation. I give the AI the data, and it organizes it for me and outputs it according to what I ask for.

I appreciate there is higher order programming, but for simple needs like the one I described, maybe this is not the beginning of the end for programming, but at least the end of the beginning.


Did you verify each and every cell of data?

LLMs are concerned with mimicking language and appearance as best they can. You don't know if it's just packaging up a bunch of numbers and a table that looks pretty plausible or if it's actually using some sort of formatting scheme and applying it while strictly preserving the numbers.

And that's part of the inherent problems of AI. It's a black box. You don't know if it's calculating some final report that thinks you want with the numbers it thinks you want or if it's actually applying a constant process to all the numbers, cells and columns of the of the report.

I suppose perhaps if the LLM could provide some sort of processing chain information to you, maybe that would work to alleviate any concerns


No, didn’t do a thorough check. Will do it again and report back!


As the parent comment says, LLMs are very good at giving plausible answers. Without checking each cell, then the data you eventually output becomes suspect.

We've been trying to solve this problem at Leaptable (https://leaptable.co/). The crux is that while LLMs are still a black box, transparency in the way AI Agents interact with LLMs is key. For instance, seeing the outputs of each step in a chain-of-thought sequence helps debug common fallacies in the way the LLMs reason and built trust.

https://github.com/peterwnjenga/leaptable


"AI" will not replace deep thinkers. It may, however, eventually replace mindless drones and fleshy bots.

In other words, the deeper you need to think to solve problems, the safer you are.


You seem to be very sure of this. I'm curious where that confidence is coming from.


I'm not just a programmer. I'm a designer. I design software to work with people, and I design implementation to have minimal technical debt.

Until I can see an "AI" go through a design process without a human guiding it, iterating until it decides to stop, I'll have this confidence.

Right now, LLM's are Clever Hans, stopping their process when a human says. So not only are they borrowing the intelligence of writers the world over, they're actually borrowing the intelligence of the person at the prompt.

Take that prompt away, and they'll fall flat.

For example, can they even think of a problem to solve on their own? No, they need a human to ask them to find a problem and solve it. Otherwise, they sit. Dumb, unmoving, devoid of agency, and incapable of even the smallest task without input.


> Until I can see an "AI" go through a design process without a human guiding it, iterating until it decides to stop, I'll have this confidence.

What use of your change of opinion then will be? The whole attempt here is to predict if something is possible - just saying "no" and waiting for the actual disproval to change your opinion worth seemingly not much.


> The whole attempt here is to predict if something is possible

Pretty sure the actual idea is to drown oneself in "copium" until the trend is too obvious to ignore.


Show me a computer that does not need input, and I might believe I'm simply coping.


Have you ever seen an example of a computer not taking input to do something?


current AI like chatgpt or stable diffusion are like people with savant syndrome. They have memorized an incredible amount of data and are great at statistics but they are not good at all at reasoning


Not yet. To be fair the internal mechanism of LLMs are not well understood theorerically, as its capabilities are emergent. Not to forget that alignment heavily impact performance. So for now, you might be right, but reasoning might also be emergent.


What no-one talks about, is energy use (power).

Humans idle at ~100W, with (iirc) something like 20..25% going to the brain. We are extremely versatile in the types of activity we can do, and most of us can put in a # of hours concentrated work each day. And are self-managing for the most part.

Contrast with LLMs: the most capable ones run on huge clusters of specialized hardware. Which was manufactured at great expense. And no doubt take many kW if not MWs to do things a (one) smart human, or a few humans can do. With the LLM stuck in its datacenter racks, while humans happily walk around.

Yeah there's smaller LLMs you can run on a laptop. Can those do the same as say, GPT4? Training on said laptop too?

Sure, human meatbags are messy, calories going in are expensive ones, and you can't pull humans from storage & switch on/off as needed. And current AI is no doubt at the beginning of a lot of optimization. Both in architecture & implementation.

But.. all that functional improvement & optimization has yet to be done.

On average, humans still give a lot of bang per calorie. Until LLMs or other AI reverses that, we're a long way from being outcompeted on the more difficult / interesting jobs.

As for simple / boring jobs: I welcome our AI overlords. More time for us to do fun stuff.


Until ai actually understand context there's no way it'll be able to conquer the programming world completely.


> “Can you do REACH->GRASP?” > “Certainly! ...”

I think here is the answer to the question of do LLMs ‘reason’ at all. Since we know the LLM is a sequence completion mechanism, that initial ‘certainly’ (which was a wrong assertion to boot) can not possibly be the result of any sort of reasoning.


"In the first place, I’m skeptical. I don’t believe we have yet crossed the threshold where machines learn to solve interesting computational problems on their own. I don’t believe we’re even close to that point, or necessarily heading in the right direction."

I feel like this is pretty hard to believe, to be honest. How on Earth, given all that's happened last year, could we possibly not at least be "heading in the right direction" the way things are?


The author qualifies this statement towards the end of the article where he also provides a short review of a few studies:

> My personal view is this: If you view the current generation of LLMs as pioneering efforts in a long-term research program, then the results are encouraging. But if you consider this technology as an immediate replacement for hand-coded software, it’s quite hopeless. We’re nowhere near the necessary level of reliability.

I think especially the overview of the studies provided in the article are valuable. You can draw your own conclusions from the results.


The automobile is faster than a human but is not a path towards machines that can transport things long distances including climbing hills or stairs or fording rivers.

Generative transformers only address part of the problem space, and perhaps I should have written “appear to address”. It is unlikely that they are much of a step along the path — perhaps, to use a car analogy, they are a crankshaft.

Perhaps a better analogy is the analogue computers of the 40s-60s and the later digital/analogue hybrids. Computationally interesting for the problems of the age but ultimately a dead end.


> How on Earth, given all that's happened last year, could we possibly not at > least be "heading in the right direction" the way things are?

The LLM models that are all the hype are superb at things like copy writing and the more traditional humanities but struggle at logic. With a year of reasearch we can reach human parity in things like psychotherapy but for something that requires logical reasoning rather then repeating bits of text it's not that clear.


They are already doing it: most humans are not capable of writing a program to drive a car, be an interesting talking companion, or even remove noise from audio. We still need humans to kickstart the learning process, that’s true, but even them are not the programmers we are used too.


You might want to look into the works of Melanie Mitchell for some pointers; IMO she gives a balanced view with both feet planted firmly on the ground.




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