As a European living in the US it took me many years to adjust to the return system in here.
In "Europe" (I'm super generalizing here), to return a product, it has to be in pristine condition, you have to the original receipt and even then they will go over it like you are smuggling drugs into the country. In US, nobody cares. This is built into the business model. You pay higher prices due to returns, but then you buy more stuff because you don't worry about returns.
When I first moved to the US, I was extremely careful with money (didn't have any). So every purchase was carefully planned and I worried about it long after it was done. Then I made a mistake and bought pair of shoes. They were uncomfortable. I felt like an idiot. But I already wore them, so now I am stuck. I told my colleague about it and he looked perplexed.
After bunch of back and forth he decided to teach me a lesson. He took me a to a grocery store. Bought a can of corn. We walked out, he opened the can, dumped half of it in a trash can. We walked back to the return counter. My heart was pumping so hard I was losing sight at moments. He put it down on the counter and said: I would like to be refunded. I thought the clerk is going to smack him silly and me with him. But he didn't even flinch. Gave him few coins and we were on the way.
This was 18 years ago. I since very well adjusted to the system, maybe a little bit too well.
At my first job, our office manager was a really nice Indian woman. She told the story of bringing her father over for a visit from India in the late 80's. He brought a suitcase with him that he had purchased at Macy's at Herald Square (Manhattan) sometime in the 40's and the lock had broken. He insisted that she take him there to get it fixed because "it has a lifetime warranty and I'm not dead yet."
No amount of arguing would get him to stop so she gave up and drove the hour or so into NYC and went into Macy's expecting to be extremely embarrassed at trying to get a beat up old suitcase fixed. Instead, they basically got the white glove treatment. Macy's couldn't fix the lock, but replaced the 40-year-old suitcase with something that was similar, treated them to lunch at the store restaurant, the manager took a photo with her Dad, etc. He, of course, was thrilled to death by all the attention.
They were a pretty well-off family, so I expect that it was probably an expensive piece of luggage when new, but even so I was amazed by the story.
It is indeed amazing how you can order nearly any single old part at a Porsche center: if you've got the PET catalog reference, even better. And the people at the counter there for "new old" parts do know their job: you explain them which part you need, the number you think it is, and more often then not they'll find it in no time, warn you about this or that similar but not identical part, that other part you'll then need too, how complicated the replacement procedure is, etc.
Now for some stuff and in case bootleg ones exist, you better buy the bootleg part for it's going to be much cheaper.
Or eBay, parts from crashed cars (you often see a photo of the "donor", crashed, car). Had the "roof console" going cuckoo before I got the extended manufacturer warranty so it was on me (and they wouldn't sell me the warranty unless I fixed it)... Turns out the roof console depends on which extra the car has (like "homelink" to open your garage door or not, the color of the interior, etc.). So it's a part that has to be made specifically for your car: Porsche quoted me something like 765 EUR for the part + one hour of work + VAT (something silly like 1100 EUR altogether). I found a nearly identical part on eBay for... 48 EUR and installed it myself in literally 5 minutes. 48 EUR vs 1100 EUR.
Also some people on forums are very good at finding which company is manufacturing that one very identical part for Porsche, but without the Porsche logo on it: gonna be way cheaper too and it's literally the same part. One example would be a Porsche battery charger which is just a CTEK charger with the CTEK logo replace by a Porsche one and sold 2x the price (not the best example as better example would be actual car parts but you get the idea).
They're pretty good with their previous model. You can upgrade/improve nearly everything from an original 911 which is incredible... or rebuild it from the ground up.
Now that's why a car from 1980 cost is not far from a new one. And that they're investment.
True, and it makes business sense in a rich country. But just like in parenting, this kind of experience and expectation can yield entitled personalities, which is indeed a common stereotype of Americans abroad. Or see American students' attitudes towards their university. They also approach it with the same customer attitude, and fair enough, they do have to pay hefty sums.
I think that’s the crux of the point. Americans are trained to be demanding customers. Whatever is then packaged as a product/service for purchase, will be treated equally.
As you pointed out, students pay a lot of money for their education in US. Shouldn’t they have a say in it? If that’s not good for the society, maybe it shouldn’t be sold as a product in the first place.
I leads quite far away. Americans are demanding customers which makes the service and products better in a way. But people are similarly also litigious, so everything a bit higher stakes will be ridiculously expensive. If little Timmy breaks a leg while with daycare corporation, the parents are likely to sue, because Healthcare is also a business etc etc. It all has its reason, it's just a whole different system and lifestyle and concerns than elsewhere (not to mention the whole thing around tips in certain service sectors).
So while for me American students seem entitled, they'd see it as standing up for themselves.
In Europe, where education is state subsidized, students are not customers, it's their responsibility to study well, as it is they who are being paid. "I'm a paying customer so you better give me good grades" just doesn't fly in that case.
Heh, that euro approach to education can create a real nightmare for Europeans moving to North America.
US: “we require transcripts sent directly from the university”
Euro university: “no, we don’t have a portal for students to request transcripts and mail them to any address they request. It’s the student’s responsibility to keep a copy of their own transcripts each year.
[9 calls/emails later] If you reallyyyyyy need us to do something for you, fiiiiiine, you can pickup a copy at this office (except during summer). If you’re overseas, send a friend to pick it up, what’s the problem? What do you mean nobody but us can touch it and you can’t just send it to them yourself?
Why are you being so difficult about this? This is way more than anybody else ever requires from us”
I've never heard about such a concept. Do American universities offer that as a button click online? Do you mean transcripts to apply to grad school, or jobs in companies?
Getting the university to mail something in my name to somewhere, for my own purposes seems nonsense from my European view. Like what do they have to do with a third party?
Of course they will certify and stamp any documents that state objective facts about my studies (during opening hours, after waiting through a long queue). And probably if you explain the things and it sounds important like you git accepted at
That said, things do differ between countries. In Hungary most universities switched from physical booklets where the profs had to physically sign each grade they gave, to an online system about 15 years ago. So no need to collect copies physically now.
In Germany, universities vary in their practices but you can at least print out a proof of enrollment yourself which includes a verification code that third parties can check.
But I think it's possible to get such things done in the end but it will need a lot of explanations and appearing in person.
> Do American universities offer that as a button click online? ... transcripts to apply to grad school, or jobs in companies?
I believe yes, usually. You pay a small fee, like $25, for the service, of course. With some schools you may have to do it over the phone and/or mail a cheque.
The official transcript would be needed for further study like grad school, or for transferring credit if you transfer schools. I've personally never had a company ask to verify my degree or grades, though I suppose if I was a new grad from a prestigious school applying to a big-name firm, they might check. (I think there is a commercial service most schools use for this, which confirms basic things like graduation date and degree.)
The rules are because the school assumes that if it didn't come directly from the other school, that you could have altered it. Although I've also heard of schools providing sealed, tamper-evident, embossed envelopes to the students, and as long as you don't open that inner envelope it would be accepted as authentic by the other school. They refer to these as "official transcript" and the kind that are unsealed are called "unofficial transcript."
> print out a proof of enrollment yourself which includes a verification code that third parties can check.
This would be the "modern" way of doing such a thing, assuming you have at least say, 2000-era technology, but the way they have it set up is a custom that started probably 50+ years ago and to my knowledge no colleges have yet gotten together to establish a standard, so that they would be able to accept them from each other and verify them.
> The official transcript would be needed for further study like grad school, or for transferring credit if you transfer schools.
Also for applying for professional licenses. Some government fields that pay more if you have a Masters or whatever may want verification, especially if you're one of the non-locals.
In 2012, I ordered my transcripts from my university (from the 90s) and they sent me a copy. I didn't ask them to send it anywhere else. I was expecting a fee, but there wasn't any (perhaps just because I was sending it to myself?). There was no portal to click, but I emailed in, and had a back and forth email with someone, then got it in the mail a couple weeks later.
It was surprising to me too when I encountered it, but yes, at least at my college, in the rare instance that you needed an "Official Transcript", you filled out a form on a portal that included the address for it to be sent to. I think we got three for free and then they were like $15 a pop or something. I have no idea why they did this and did not just stamp/seal it and expect me to mail it myself.
> Getting the university to mail something in my name to somewhere, for my own purposes seems nonsense from my European view. Like what do they have to do with a third party?
I get it. Trying to highlight the difference in attitude. Almost all universities in Europe are public universities (state owned) so they are not seen as businesses and we don't consider them service providers in that sense.
> But just like in parenting, this kind of experience and expectation can yield entitled personalities, which is indeed a common stereotype of Americans abroad. Or see American students' attitudes towards their university. They also approach it with the same customer attitude, and fair enough, they do have to pay hefty sums.
"The customer is always right" is more true in America than Europe.
That's precisely my point. There's a lot of upsides to that. It's often much smoother to get stuff done in the US. People want to solve issues and don't sweat the small stuff.
To be more concrete than just Europe, if you take Germany, things tend to be more rigid and set in stone. But it's also changing with more experience interacting with American companies through globalization. And Eastern Europe is way worse than Western Europe which itself is behind the US. In the East you as a customer are made to feel small and the customer reps just want to get rid of you. It's probably a holdover from communism where stores and everything was state-owned so there was no profit motive to be nicer. It has lasting impact even down the generations, though more travel and foreign experiences are starting to change that too.
I had a friend at a German company in the US that said a lot of their operational problems weren’t shared by the headquarters in Germany because in Germany they had more power to tell people “too bad, you’re just going to have to wait.”
Pros and cons I guess, but im not even trying to say one is better than the other. Just that the dynamic is real.
No need for "j/k" here. The original quote was something to the effect of "The customer is always right in matters of taste." It wasn't intended as a dictum to bend over backward to the breaking point and beyond in the name of "customer service."
Well, I think my tastes are better than everyone’s. That’s why they’re my tastes.
But I actually have no idea what you’re saying. Have you heard the phrase “the customer is always right?” Im saying that attitude is more strongly held in the US.
Not for long — more and more of our returns are going to a small number of retailers and they are all talking to each other anyway (via third party return companies). Some folks are already banned from returning from one big box store (and as a result, other big box stores). Expect this to expand to smaller shops soon!
> American students' attitudes towards their university. They also approach it with the same customer attitude, and fair enough, they do have to pay hefty sums.
For decades, spendthrift universities - including public universities[1] - have been selling their students into debt servitude, drastically expanding administrative payroll and exorbitant construction projects while simultaneously shifting teaching duties onto poorly paid adjuncts.
It would be nice if students could change the system, but they seem to have little say in the matter since university degrees are required for most jobs. Grad students are unionizing at least, but this is unlikely to decrease tuition, or costs for undergraduates.
> In "Europe" (I'm super generalizing here), to return a product, it has to be in pristine condition, you have to the original receipt and even then they will go over it like you are smuggling drugs into the country. In US, nobody cares. This is built into the business model. You pay higher prices due to returns, but then you buy more stuff because you don't worry about returns.
Sounds about like the experience of trying to return anything to a Marshall's store in the US. I tried it once. I was attempting to return a defective water bottle (the seal on the top leaked). They say it has to be in the original packaging and unused. Well, how in the actual fuck am I supposed to determine if the seal is defective or not without "using" it?
In most European countries you are allowed to return defective products without the original packaging and used. You just can't return items that way only because you didn't like them.
In Spain, you can return things that you didn't buy in person (eg online, on a catalogue or via phone) within 14 days of receiving it for any reason whatsoever, as long as it's still in good condition.
Yeah, most US stores have generous return policies but this is not at all universal. Some stores have strict terms (must have original receipt, must be unopened, and returned within a 30-day windows), or sometimes the employee working the service desk had a bad day and decides to take it out on you.
I know that I tend to shop at stores that aren't going to challenge me when I need to return things.
It’s quite an adjustment. It feels like companies here are the complete opposite: you should feel lucky they’re allowing you to give them your money. Not happy with it? Fuck right off. We made a mistake? Too bad so sad.
I feel like there should be a middle ground between return everything and return nothing, but I am regularly appalled at the contempt with which companies in Europe treat their customers.
And before you tell me I’m wrong: this is a generalization, I’m sure $anecdote will prove me wrong, my point still stands.
I remember when I was a cash-strapped student in France ordering photo gear from the US (Adorama or B&H) because the price + international shipping + customs + vat (the last two being applied on top of the shipping) + UPS's fees for handling customs was cheaper than buying from Europe.
You know what the kicker was? It was a tripod made in Italy.
It said "made in Italy" on it, not just an Italian brand manufactured in China. This was generally true for "regular" photo equipment (made in Japan), too.
Yeah, they're obviously never seen what other countries pay for the same products.
I know here in New Zealand, especially anything tech has a "NZ tax" added, not a govt tax, just a saying here, meaning the price of living in NZ.
It's not uncommon for things to be double the price here compared to buying in the US and shipping here (accounting for all fees).
Recent example buying a Ubiquiti UniFi Lite 8-Port switch from B&H shipped to NZ, all fee's accounted for is $138NZD (82USD) cheaper then buying it local.
Someone is making bank somewhere in the supply chain.
People often say, well you live on an island in the middle of nowhere, that's the price you pay. But that doesn't check out if a company in the US can ship a single (not on sale, at RRP) item for way less. How can a wholesalers in NZ, who bulk ships it's here at wholesale rate, and cheap (bulk) shipping rate, then end up with a price so much higher at retail.
Having extensively suffered the NZ tax before moving across the ditch - but still suffering a lesser version of it here - I suspect it's a question of scale for packaging and distribution.
That switch is probably a relatively niche item when compared to some generic TP-Link switch, and AU & NZ are basically the only countries to use the Type I plug. That means the production run for that switch is tiny - it's probably not even a full days run, which means the economy of sale is reduced.
On top of that, the middle man is probably distributing a tiny amount of these to each store, so they can't just pull out pallets from the shipping container and put them on a truck, individual items probably need to be pulled out and re-packaged. All this adds cost.
Yes, at least in the UK, Amazon is frequently slightly more expensive than elsewhere, but often I'll knowingly pay the small premium because of the known easy, free, returns.
I can't remember correctly, but it was around 100 € I'd say
This was a tripod, basically 3 sticks hinged together. I could've lived without the warranty.
But IME if they ship it to Europe, then it will come with an "international warranty", so I think the manufacturer is supposed to honor the warranty here, too. My tripod and head had that warranty, but I never needed to use it. I also bought another item from there, a bit more "electronical", probably a lens, but I can't quite remember. It also came with an international warranty card.
There are many items which they won't ship, though, mostly cameras.
The enormous waste? I do find it concerning. There are plenty of "we do it because we can" types and encouraging such behaviour would only make things worse.
I am not against returns, of course. But abusing these systems annoys and saddens me.
It used to be like this in the US too. I’m still uncomfortable returning things because that’s how it was when I grew up. Walmart and e-commerce are when this all changed.
With high return rate and higher purchasing power, I don't know why some imported products like TV and GPU in the US are significantly cheaper than other countries (even without tax).
In "Europe" (I'm super generalizing here), to return a product, it has to be in pristine condition, you have to the original receipt and even then they will go over it like you are smuggling drugs into the country. In US, nobody cares. This is built into the business model. You pay higher prices due to returns, but then you buy more stuff because you don't worry about returns.
When I first moved to the US, I was extremely careful with money (didn't have any). So every purchase was carefully planned and I worried about it long after it was done. Then I made a mistake and bought pair of shoes. They were uncomfortable. I felt like an idiot. But I already wore them, so now I am stuck. I told my colleague about it and he looked perplexed.
After bunch of back and forth he decided to teach me a lesson. He took me a to a grocery store. Bought a can of corn. We walked out, he opened the can, dumped half of it in a trash can. We walked back to the return counter. My heart was pumping so hard I was losing sight at moments. He put it down on the counter and said: I would like to be refunded. I thought the clerk is going to smack him silly and me with him. But he didn't even flinch. Gave him few coins and we were on the way.
This was 18 years ago. I since very well adjusted to the system, maybe a little bit too well.