I block ads because they're psychological warfare that corporations wage against me. I don't care how unobtrusive the ads are. I don't care if the ads don't track me. I grew up changing the channel on TV when ads came on, and ripping adverts out of magazines before sitting down to read them. I vote for billboard bans whenever I can. I have zero tolerance for ads of any sort.
Advertisers have no morals, they're completely depraved. They'll eagerly exploit a teenager's self-conscious body issues to sell useless beauty products. They sell sugar water to fat people and at every turn promote the rampant consumerist culture that is destroying our planet. They're lower than pond scum and I never want to see a single ad from them ever.
> It is really not so repulsive to see the poor asking for money as to see the rich asking for more money. And advertisement is the rich asking for more money. A man would be annoyed if he found himself in a mob of millionaires, all holding out their silk hats for a penny; or all shouting with one voice, “Give me money.” Yet advertisement does really assault the eye very much as such a shout would assault the ear. “Budge’s Boots are the Best” simply means “Give me money”; “Use Seraphic Soap” simply means “Give me money.” It is a complete mistake to suppose that common people make our towns commonplace, with unsightly things like advertisements. Most of those whose wares are thus placarded everywhere are very wealthy gentlemen with coronets and country seats, men who are probably very particular about the artistic adornment of their own homes. They disfigure their towns in order to decorate their houses.
Profound. Thanks for sharing this. That really frames what I’ve been struggling to describe. Advertising isn’t some necessary lifeblood of many industries. It can often be something like the endless trench warfare between Pepsi and Coke, vying for slivers of mindshare.
I also think that advertising is often a crutch for incompetence. Build a good product and it can take off all on its own. People advertise for you. Or build crap and hire an industry to manipulate people into wanting your crap. Advertising is manipulation. Watch any ad and ask, “what emotion are they trying to con me into feeling?”
Good products hardly ever take out on their own. I'm not sure what computer you're logged on from, but to take that as an example, I'm pretty sure it's made by a company that would likely go under if it chose not to advertise.
Advertisement is sometimes just to inform and build awareness, sometimes to build brand, but often to persuade, and sometimes it exploits unethical persuasion techniques. The gap between ethics allowed by society and your own personal ethics are very variable from place to place and person to person. For example in a lot of places it's illegal for doctors and pharma to advertise; some might consider it a good thing not to exploit hypochondriacs, but is it ethical if it results in patients not knowing about an actual cure for their condition? These things are endlessly debatable, they're very far from a black and white situation.
Do good products fail to take off on their own because advertising is an absolute necessity, or is it because advertising allows bad products to saturate the market so thoroughly? In a hypothetical world without advertising, would it still be true that good products couldn't take off on their own merits? Or would they spread effectively by word of mouth in the absence of the noise generated by the advertising industry?
I don't have an answer to this question, it's purely hypothetical. And even if it is true that in this hypothetical world, good products would spread, we're still left with a prisoner's dilemma to resolve in the real world.
While it rings rather hollow at this point, I still find NPR's description of how they differentiate "advertising" from "sponsor messages":
- no qualitative adjectives
That is, you can say "Foo Corp. makes high speed Gizblams that can help you and your family deal with the challenges of flamming" without it being an ad.
BUt if you say "Foo Corp. makes the best anti-flam devices", it's an ad.
I mean sure, it's sort of bullshit, but there's some sort of idea buried in there somewhere.
I really like this. There is a huge difference between,
“We make Foo. Foo helps you Bar the Baz. Check us out at foobarbaz.com”
Vs.
“Look at this scary Baz. Feel emotions about it. We want you feeling anxious and ill-equipped. Okay now here’s Foo. We want you feeling better. Nicer music. Smiles. Good emotions from you. What a relief. If you’re tired of being a dumb idiot who suffers from Baz all the time, we can fix you with Foo.”
HN asks for substantive comments, not memes or internet tropes. HN also asks you not to comment on voting because it's shallow and boring. Written guidelines are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Foo Corp. makes Gizblams." Whether or not they're high speed depends on the other Gizblam manufacturers, whether or not it can help me or my family depends on if I like it or not.
Hey I'd never heard that one before, I like that one a lot. I wouldn't mind ads if they were sponsor messages like that or remember PBS and stuff? Less noise and crap would be great and ads wouldn't be so crap to deal with. If ya want to let me know your product exists just say it does don't try to lie to me then yeah I'd be more okay with ads or "sponsor messages" as you say there.
To NPR's point, I do not find NPR's voices advertising objectionable when they come up once or twice an hour. They're non-offensive and in the same voice, tone, and level as all of the other commentary.
I've been thinking about this comment for a few minutes and do find it interesting. But the extremes of the comments and quotes above make it clear that even displaying your product is an ad; demonstrating how it works to a crowd would be an ad; telling someone that it exists would be an ad; there seems to be no way to tell the market that your product exists without that being defined as an ad.
So I would answer you with, given the extremes defined above, that indeed advertising is a necessity since good products would otherwise rot inside the inventor's home. It being illegal (say, for example) to have ads would mean that it is illegal to even tell anyone that you invented a product.
I think there's got to be some kind of give from the anti-ad side if we want to have _things_ in the world that do stuff - because if I can't even say "I made a better product that does x,y,z" then how the heck is anyone ever gonna find out about it? Where does the word-of-mouth kick off even?
You gotta _tell_ people you made something - but that's an ad.
So I've been producing ads for a couple of decades, and I agree that they're basically psychological warfare. I justify it to myself because I usually get to make ads for products that help people, but the war over mindshare is absolutely depraved. That said, there does need to be a place for people to access information about products and services. I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services, rather than something ingrained in every aspect of modern life.
>So I've been producing ads for a couple of decades, and I agree that they're basically psychological warfare. I justify it to myself because I usually get to make ads for products that help people, but the war over mindshare is absolutely depraved. That said, there does need to be a place for people to access information about products and services. I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services, rather than something ingrained in every aspect of modern life.
I spent a number of years doing market research for advertising, and I couldn't agree more. Data analysis is primarily focused on increasing "top of mind" and "unaided" awareness and linking positively-perceived properties and emotions to the product being flogged.
I got out before "social media" convinced everyone to share everything about their lives with advertisers and their enablers, but back in the day, ad agencies and the marketing departments of large consumer product companies each spend millions every year (cf. BSB Global Scan[0] as an example) collecting a tiny subset of that data.
Given the enormous amount of data available today, I imagine that the levels of manipulation have increased exponentially. And more's the pity.
So I suppose where you are coming from is that you're using dirty tricks to convince people who don't need a product to buy it. Which is not ideal. But I've seen a lot of software engineers write code that is unreliable and causes their users a lot of suffering. Most people do a bit of harm on the margins because their job is part of messy reality instead of some imaginary pure world.
On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products. It is just much easier to sell something useful with sneaky advertising than selling advertising in a vacuum. People not knowing about their options is one of the bigger problems in modern life. There are a lot of things I'd spend money on to change and I'm just not sure how to do it. As far as I can tell that is normal.
"I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services" - when I see people doing that I'll believe it is an option. Most people sit there until told to do something. Even when doing the thing is in their own interests.
> On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products.
How? Take the examples from above about selling beauty products to teenagers, where is the ad saying "you're perfect as you are, no need to drop hundreds of dollars on any of this bullshit"? All the ads in existence will try to extract money from them by playing up body image issues, so the noise WILL NOT cancel out on their own.
> Most people sit there until told to do something. Even when doing the thing is in their own interests.
To think that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves... Tell me, are you an advertising professional? Because your thought process is just as obnoxious.
> To think that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves...
Easy mistake, I suppose. But if you read closely, you'll notice that isn't what I said or implied.
People often know what is in their own best interests, they just don't act on it. Consider, for example, how hard it is for most people to get to the gym even after taking out gym membership. I had a running buddy once solely because the gentleman knew he wouldn't go running unless he had someone else to remind him.
People usually need a little push before they do the sensible thing. That is one of the things advertisers tap in to and why they are so valuable to a business.
Advertisers never push people to do the sensible thing though. There's a reason that "vice" advertising has so much money poured into it.
The gym advertising its memberships would rather you never set foot on their premises.
Beauty products want you to feel good about yourself, but only while you're wearing their products.
McDonalds and Coca Cola do not want you to eat healthier, or enjoy their products only occasionally.
It's actually shocking to see someone frame advertisers as pushing people towards making good decisions for themselves, when we've had to explicitly ban tobacco companies from advertising how sexy and popular smoking would make you.
I agree that way more advertising is aimed at encouraging poor decisions for profit. There's just more money in it. But there absolutely are ads (not just PSAs) that try to get people to help themselves. Profit is still made, but the exchange is much more equitable (or there's no better option).
iPhone advertising back in 2007-era revolutionised computing and managed to convince a lot of people to pa for quality phones instead of putting up with the usual cheap product that most companies produce. It was a two-for-one.
AWS advertising generally has been a major contributor to the success of at least two companies I worked at.
I get reminded from time to time that I could saved quite a bit on my retirement fund if I switched to one with lower fees. One day an ad will probably hit me at the right moment and I'll actually do it.
Local news stations are one of the last bastions of investigative journalism, (generally) reliable and actionable information, and platforms for local non-profits. They're a net benefit to a community, and they only maintain that capacity through promotion.
There are a lot of medical devices that help people with relatively minor or uncommon issues. Even doctors don’t always know about them. The companies that make them can’t usually afford to advertise on larger platforms, but they target ads to try and reach those affected.
Local consumer-facing businesses in general need local advertising to survive. This works better for some industries than others, but keeping a competitive space healthy requires some assistance getting a newer/smaller competitor’s message out.
It's not so much about any particular ad or product, but the attention that ads steal. Most peoples' heads are FULL of ad jingles they never wanted there.
> On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products.
That, in general sense, violates second law of thermodynamics. More specifically, it also feels like going against some physical law with Shannon's signature on it, though its formulation escapes me.
Point being: even in cases where this "cancelling out" happens, it's not a free process. It uses energy, it uses natural resources, it uses victims' attention, it generates entropy. The more advertisers scale it, the more waste it creates.
As for "made based on the quality and usefulness of the products", that's actually the first victim of advertising - all real information gets lost in the sea of lies, while victims' attention is saturated, so they have very little headspace to evaluate competing offers.
I think that the rest of your discussion hinges on this assumption, and I completely disagree with it.
What you need actually is for people to know that your product exist.
People have needs & problem beyond the fake ones created by advertising.
People can _ask_ for what options exist to solve their problem. And that to me is fundamentally different.
Having a way for consumers to go out and pull information in about what options exist is fundamentally different from having advertising shoved down their throat.
> People need can _ask_ for what options exist to solve their problem.
Where do you propose people ask? Who would fulfill those queries? What formats would you allow the information to be expressed in? Would you filter out any non-objective characterization (“best car in the world”)? Would you constrain packaging (eg color, creativity, etc.) so that it isn’t attention-grabbing? Etc.
I’m not sure how it would all work out. But let’s start where we are now with search engines.
Remove the ads and make people pay to use them beyond some number of queries a month. This alone gets rid of the problem of the platform intentionally shoving ads down your throat.
Find a shitty website that SEO’d it’s way to the top and got through the cat and mouse game? Then allow people to blacklist websites so they stop appearing in results. Then as the provider investigate and downrank sites that people downrank and block often.
Maybe also preferentially treat companies that don’t load their own sites with other people’s ads and tracking scripts. Oh and tell the user how many of those trackers exist on the site.
This obviously don’t solve the problem of companies pushing ads onto you. But it:
1. Sets up your information provider to not be the biggest and worse ad pusher of them all.
2. It gives people the tools to start penalizing bad content and ads and to outright block them from their results.
This alone, I strongly believe, would be a great improvement.
Google used to (like, fifteen years ago) go to enormous lengths to break or cripple any kind of SEO - unpredictably revising their algorithm, hand-reviewing sites, and other things that they wouldn't even admit to or hint about (for fear of giving the nascent SEO "industry" a moment of ascendency). There was a brief time in the early teens when the received wisdom was that "SEO doesn't work".
Maybe they still do all that, but I'm not convinced. I see so many transparently SEO-ified sites at the top of search results that I regularly think "I wouldn't have seen that in 2008".
I recently switched to Kagi, and it does most of the things I talk about above. I don’t stumble into SEO crab very often anymore. And when I do, I instantly black hole it.
They recently rolled out a leaderboard where you can see the top sites people block, downrank, uprank, and pin to the top. Extremely useful.
I really believe I have a good idea for this question[1]. There is no reason advertising couldn't be nagging me to do things I want to be nagged into doing anyway. But damn, the actual work to disrupt such an entrenched snakepit of self-justification is daunting. I don't think it's at all impossible to build something much better, just really hard to get the necessary mindshare from an industry built on taking mindshare.
This is an unreasonable set of goals, given that the current system (advertising) fails to avoid any of these issues.
Regardless of current issues with Reddit's business model, it does seem to have been particularly successful as a US/English repository of product knowledge, despite not having any specific strategies to deal with the problems you mention above.
> This is an unreasonable set of goals, given that the current system (advertising) fails to avoid any of these issues.
The proposal that I responded to wanted a system where a consumer can express their desire for a product or service given the problem and that you get back results that don't have the smell of advertising. Put differently, these aspects I enumerated ARE attributes of advertising that the proposal seeks to eliminate.
I actually didn’t require it to stop looking like current advertising. I merely wish for a system in which you come to companies telling them what problem you want and listen to what they have to say.
This is opposed to the current system where they are constantly trying to barge into your life.
It’s about pulling in information when you want it versus having it pushed onto you. See my reply to your other comment.
I recently bought a ski touring pack. It's almost certainly the best pack money can buy. The guy who made it has a waiting list and seems to be happy with his life. He doesn't advertise at all. If you find him, you move in the circles that mean that you want a high quality ski touring pack, and word of mouth will eventually reach you. If you really care about this category of product you can find him. The pack is competitive in price with anything else on the market of similar features and quality. It's not really a "luxury" or "boutique" product.
This is an example of how businesses and customers can be perfectly happy without any advertising. It's not the only example, just the first that came to mind.
I know a Polish guy that makes sleeping bags along much the same model. Best sleeping bags that you can find. He's got a waiting list longer than a year now and people don't mind. Never a single ad, just word of mouth. And no, it doesn't scale but he couldn't care less.
One of my clients make really good products. I would say the best you can get (this is a mobility product) It has ergonomic properties that blows away any competition, and build quality is second to none.
However, it’s expensive. It has been a really tough uphill climb to connect to our audience and convince them the money is worth it here. In a market with marked up shitty quality products it has been a journey to position ourselves, especially since our budgets are maybe 1/10th of that of aforementioned shitty producers who outmarket us.
I honestly feel the work I am doing is near to a community service. Although still advertising our ads are honest of what the products can do.
Put up a non-intrusive entry in a directory that people would use to reach out to you. Let them come to you.
Stop hounding people to be the repeatedly ground in impression by repetition. So much time is wasted today... When I think of all the broadcasting/transmission medium throughput that's eaten up by carrying unsolicited advertisements to people that could either A) be left unused, or used to provide better performance for everyone, or B) utilized for, heaven forbid, the public calling out for proposals from service providers!
You know, we could just bin the entire sector/activity under dishonesty like we did before puffery was enshrined as an acceptable behavior for a business.
Advertisement meant to inform is valuable. However, almost all advertising is meant to bewilder.
Advertising and marketing executives spend all their time thinking up ways to say things that are technically true if construed in the most torturous way possible while implying something else. That is a pure intent to confuse and bewilder and is the lifeblood of the industry.
We can fix this by requiring advertising to inform. Any implication that overstates your product should be false advertising. The test is simple, if your lawyer says: “Well technically…” you lose. You must be truthful, clear, and spend all of your time thinking about how a customer might misinterpret what you say over-positively and nip that in the bud. Obviously, this depends on the target demographic, and the expected viewers who might act on the ad, but the details seem solvable once you approach it from the stated concept.
Advertising should inform, anything else should be the crime of false advertising.
The direct reason for this is the existence of advertisement. In a ideal (also pretty much only theoretical) world where there are no ads, only honest reviewers and comparison sites, bad products would fall pretty quickly, planned obsolesce would be suicide etc etc.
> I'm not sure what computer you're logged on from, but to take that as an example, I'm pretty sure it's made by a company that would likely go under if it chose not to advertise.
What a strange example. Other than Apple products, I'm not sure if most people could tell you what computer they are using, or can recall seeing an ad for any of them. "PCs" are a generic, interchangeable object to most people.
But for most customers, any brand will suit them. Getting rid of advertising wouldn't really have an adverse effect on them, they'll just buy whatever's at the store and it'll be fine. (As long as there are adequate consumer protections.)
You might've never worked in retail I guess... Most people, if someone they trust chose for them, sure they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But also, picking a "reputable brand" is a big criterion. By which most people mean, a brand they've at least heard of, preferably in good ways.
So who advertised the wheel to you? The sextant? The hammer? The abacus? Good inventions stand on their own technical merits and don’t need advertising to get others to see that they are good ideas.
You just listed several items invented hundreds or thousands of years ago, it doesn’t really give you a very strong argument.
If I make a website tomorrow that details the best innovation in programming language technology, how is it ever going to find an audience unless I advertise somehow? At some point I have to go around and tell people about it either in person or via ads, either way I am advertising.
You are supporting my point here. You aren’t selling actual tech, you are selling your website, that goes on to describe tech. No one puts out ads for things like c, bash, python, R, whatever. There aren’t billboards for these languages on the highway. This tech stands on its own, and people are guided to one language or another based on either its own technical merits or their own comfort with the language. You could argue things like white papers describing a technology in a relevant publication might be an ad, but I disagree. Those are more or less factual reports where the authors might even test their technologies shortcomings and limitations compared to existing offerings. Hyperbole is rejected by peer review, yet its the default language of advertising.
Ads on the other hand often lie by omission when it comes to the limits of a technology being advertised. They exist to get you on their product simply because the business is leveraged in it, not because its a good product, much less to share findings with potential colleagues about what you’ve discovered that might even tarnish said products initial expectations.
Yeah sure wheels are a good idea. Most people aren't in the market for ideas. If you're in the market for some actual wheels to put on your car, it sure might help if the tires someone's trying to sell you are Goodyear, Michelin, Firestone, or some no-brand piece of rubber.
It's not. Apple advertised massively the iPhone when it came out, and while they did take share away from other phone manufacturers, they almost certainly made the pie bigger for everyone. People weren't routinely buying phones that cost close to $1000 every few years.
The first iPhone was about $600 which wasn’t that high when you consider the price of an iPod + cell phone combined. And people were regularly buying cellphones and that trend would only ever increase.
As for advertising driving consumerism, that’s undeniable but it’s unclear to me that consumerism is a net positive. We certainly can see all the negative things it creates in society. It also distorts the market in a way that funds are directed to things that may not be as important but has better advertising.
>> Good products hardly ever take out on their own. I'm not sure what computer you're logged on from, but to take that as an example, I'm pretty sure it's made by a company that would likely go under if it chose not to advertise.
As a counterpoint, I chose my last three laptops (Thinkpads, by Lenovo) because I was fed up with the advertisement, in particular grassroots advertisement, by Apple. Lenovo did advertise to people like me, but I was already on the market for a powerful laptop and the last thing I would buy was an Apple laptop, because of all the advertisement as I said. I went with the first thing that was shoved in my face and that looked good enough for my needs.
Honestly I have no idea whose game I'm playing here. When I find the time I'll make a laptop of my own. Only of course it will end up as big as a desktop :)
No, I've built my own computer from parts I've researched that were given by aggregated reviews best ratio of cost/value for me. If I ever saw an ad during that process to any of those components, I would ignore that. If it would be obnoxious enough, I would go for competition instead just because of that.
Computers are actually pretty bad example of this here on HN, folks here do (or at least should) understand pretty damn well what they are buying and ads should never interfere with this process.
Patients shouldn't be researching cures for themselves, they should be given choices by professional doctors. If this process is broken fix that, and not justify amoral for-profit advertising instead.
I literally can't agree with a single sentence you wrote, it all sounds like from person way too deep in PR business justifying their jobs.
I don't think I have ever seen microsoft ads in my country, not for Windows at least.
They didn't make it by advertising rather that having deals to become the default because shipped in the hardware and the price baked in the price of the hardware.
Advertising should be heavily taxed so companies have an incentive to innovate and make better products. All the money that goes to advertising is money that don't go to R&D and salaries.
The internet business model is an exception because there ads actually fund useful services. It's anomally, a clever hack but should really be independant public services whose goal is to expand freedom of associtaion and peer to peer discovery and exchanges and could be funded with taxes.
There is plenty of Microsoft advertising in any country that they're in. But it may be more subtle. There's search advertising. They also subsidize partner advertising (co-marketing).
> The internet business model is an exception because there ads actually fund useful services.
?? Most public information services, including newspapers, radio, and television, are funded in large part by advertising.
>I'm not sure what computer you're logged on from, but to take that as an example, I'm pretty sure it's made by a company that would likely go under if it chose not to advertise
TBH, I can't recall the last time I saw an ad for a Dell product.
> I'm pretty sure it's made by a company that would likely go under if it chose not to advertise.
Isn't this the survivorship bias? If aggressively advertising companies outcompete companies not advertising or advertising less - then if advertising wasn't an option, or if the society was more negative towards ads - then perhaps the latter category of companies would be more thrive.
Many established doctors have their habits set after years (or decades) of practice, and aren't particularly interested in new stuff. Many young doctors are unsure of trying something outside of the norm. All are afraid of malpractice. It's very difficult for new treatments to spread in this kind of environment.
> It's very difficult for new treatments to spread in this kind of environment.
No amount of drug advertisements will change that. Solve the root cause and the problem generally goes away, but keep putting lipstick on a pig and you just get more problems.
That’s only because everyone advertises. Kind of nuclear weapons. You gotta have them even if you believe they shouldn’t even exist. Still, many very good products take off on their own (word of mouth) though they’re not very common.
> It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages."
Pay close attention and note that Smith is talking about individuals-as- butchers, brewers, and bakers.
Not multinational conglomerate monopolist meat-packing, alcohol, and shelf-stable baked goods manufacturers.
As individuals, Smith's artisans would have faced ample competition both within a community and from others nearby if they attempted to strong-arm customers or degrade products (though there was plenty of both going on, as attested by food-quality and food-purity laws dating back to Hammurabi). They lacked any appreciable ability to lock in more than a very localised monopoly absent armed force or coercion, though those too were abundantly evident (see: America's Colonies and the British East India Company, both of which Smith also writes of).
Yeah, Smith's little chestnut requires heavy interpretation and contextualization. Definitely not the 'anytime any person or organization sells anything in self-interest it is good for everyone because markets' definition which it often gets dragged out for.
Weren't there trade unions back then, preventing a certain amount of competition? I'm not sure those days were some golden age of healthy market competition.
No. Certainly not general unions amongst unskilled labourers.
As Smith himself notes:
What are the common wages of labor, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties [(masters and workmen)], whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. ... The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of Parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it.
The proto-labour organisations were probably the guilds, which existed in Smith's time, and in fact he helped find alternative employment for one guy who had been blackisted by the local Hammermen's Guild (the blacksmith's union, as it were), goes by the name of James Watt. Had him set up at the University of Edinburgh, and worked on one of the fire engines there. What we'd now call a steam engine.
(And for all that, Smith utterly failed to realise what the import of that particular invention on the economic development of Britain during the 19th century would be....)
The first general unions in the UK date to the 1820s and 1830s, roughly three to four decades after Smith, who died in 1790:
> My parent was somehow dedicating more empathy towards single-man operations than large companies
They were not. They were pointing out that a single-man operation has far less power to dictate market conditions than a 50,000 person conglomerate. Even when they are the only butcher in a whole village, they have nowhere near the price-setting power that a company does (even one that doesn't have the same level of monopoly).
Much of what Smith argues about is power, beginning with among the shortest, pithiest, and clearest sentences in the entire book:
"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power."
Then there is his very long diatribe against joint stock (privately-held, shareholder-based) corporations, which Smith argues should be limited largely to the financial sector (banks and insurance). Itself an interesting distinction and one that's had me think about those areas of economic activity, and why the so-called "FIRE" sector (finance, insurance, and real estate) are linked together.
One interpretation I've arrived at is that all concern the evaluation of future value over a given portfolio: of loans, of insurance policies, and of mortgages (themselves a class of loans). These all ... have some peculiar and similar behavioural characteristics, risks, and moral and morale hazards associated with them. They also tend toward monopolistic in both scale and practices. Among the notable exceptions to anti-trust regulations against conspiring on prices is the exception for insurance underwriting boards, comprised of multiple companies, who share risk, cost, and pricing data to set premiums.
Just to clarify: you mean all those people who were never found personally liable for anything they did on behalf of their corporate employer? The ones who are either already re-employed (most likely at another corporate-type employer, where they're shielded from personal liability), or probably looking for employment at such an employer?
You mean those people? Because I just want to make sure we know who we're referring to here.
Corporate liability doctrine has two major components.
The first is limited liability to stockholders, whose losses are capped at the value of their investment and not for their full personal assets. That is, if you purchase stock in a company, neither creditors nor plaintiffs may seek compensation above and beyond what's already been invested. This is what is meant in the term "limited liability company", though the protection includes firms not described by that specific term. The protection does not apply to sole proprieterships and simple partnerships, so far as I understand (US law).
The second is the so-called "corporate veil", which further protects specific officers and board members of a firm from personal liability for the firm's actions in many cases. A recent notable (and notorious) example of this has been of Perdue Pharma and the Sackler Family, in which the officers (of Perdue) and the shareholders (the Sacklers) escaped most civil and any criminal liability for the deaths of 500,000 slewn for profits via the company's unwarranted and addictive opioid products.
There is no corporate protection, large or small, for shifts in overall economic conditions, particularly as affects individual workers (as opposed to officers, board members, creditors, and/or investors). Though of course, large corporate interests do have much greater influence over both government policy and legislation, and often secure bailouts ... which seem rarely to reach individual front-line workers.
ProPublica has a list compiled in 2008 extending from the Penn Central Railroad (1970, $3.2 billion) to the Troubled Asset Relief Program (2008, $700 billion), Citigroup (2008, $280 billion), and Bank of America (2009, $142 billion).
I'd strongly recommend you respond to what's actually been said by those you're responding to, and based on factual and relevant information. It makes for a more interesting discussion, even where, or rather, especially where, there is disagreement.
With all due respect to Graeber, and acknowledgement of Smith's faults, far more of the apparent contradictions in Smith come from those who grossly misrepresent him, whilst at the same time strongly discouraging others from reading him directly.
I'd compiled a set of quotes from Karl Marx and Adam Smith a ways back and encouraged people to tell which came from whom:
The "butcher, brewer, and baker" quote is most often seen in a form that ties it together with another passage hundreds of pages from it within Wealth. That construction was created in the early 20th century, more than 100 years after Smith wrote his work, by Jacob Viner, at the monopolist-defending University of Chicago. My understanding is that this was initially an exercise to show how much one could twist Smith's meaning by selectively editing his work. It's since come to be taken as a flat statement by Smith, as originally intended, when it is in fact no such thing.
In fact, the chapter in which the vastly over-exaggerated and greatly misconstrued phrase "invisible hand" occurs, begins with a discussion of restraint of trade by monopoly interests, including of the previously-mentioned butchers:
BY RESTRAINING, either by high duties, or by absolute prohibitions, the importation of such goods from foreign countries as can be produced at home, the monopoly of the home market is more or less secured to the domestic industry employed in producing them. Thus the prohibition of importing either live cattle or salt provisions from foreign countries secures to the graziers of Great Britain the monopoly of the home market for butcher's meat. The high duties upon the importation of corn, which in times of moderate plenty amount to a prohibition, give a like advantage to the growers of that commodity. The prohibition of the importation of foreign woollens is equally favorable to the woollen manufactures. The silk manufacture, though altogether employed upon foreign materials, has lately obtained the same advantage. The linen manufacture has not yet obtained it, but is making great strides toward it. Many other sorts of manufactures have, in the same manner, obtained in Great Britain, either altogether, or very nearly a monopoly against their countrymen. The variety of goods of which the importation into Great Britain is prohibited, either absolutely, or under certain circumstances, greatly exceeds what can easily be suspected by those who are not well acquainted with the laws of the customs.
Kennedy's hardly the only person to point this out. John Kenneth Galbraith made much of how Smith was misrepresented during his lifetime, and Steve Keen is amongst present-day economists doing similarly, if memory serves.
Since the post I'm responding to seems to be drawing negative attention, I'd like to make clear: I do respect Graeber, and think that his work on the origins of money in particular are far more credible than that suggested by Smith.
Smith does best where he comments on that which he can observe directly. He's weak on ancient history and what we'd now call archeology and anthropology (Graeber's own specialisation), as well as on contemporary conditions he'd not directly witnessed --- the American Colonies, again, or China, come to mind.
But in observing and commenting on actual trade, commerce, and politics of his own time and place, there's a great deal of wisdom. His commentary on prices suggests to me a number of classes of goods & services (commodities, assets, rents, wages, skilled / privileged work, public goods, capital stock) with distinct pricing tendencies, some of which behave poorly in open markets. His commentary on the components of wages is excellent (I've mentioned this numerous times over the years on HN). His commentary on the practices of privately chartered companies operating as empires and armies abroad are telling (and little commented on by the usual vociferous "champions" of Smith).
It's useful to keep in mind that all authors and authorities have their strengths and weaknesses. The one shouldn't blind us to the other, either way.
(Graeber also has his ... excessive enthusiasms, I'll put it. But he's also intelligent, a keen observer, and doesn't fall slave to orthodoxies and convention.)
> It is a complete mistake to suppose that common people make our towns commonplace, with unsightly things like advertisements.
In other words, the average person isn't advertising; at least, not in an intrusive way.
Indeed, the best at any particular job probably are not advertising, because the effort they spent on advertising is effort that was not spent on the job. After buying expensive medication in the United States, I come home and the TV is showing a 90 second commercial from a pharmaceutical company with a catchy song and is overall very well made--guess I know why my medication was expensive. Do we even need advertisements for prescription medication?
> People are taking the piss out of you everyday. They butt into your life, take a cheap shot at you and then disappear. They leer at you from tall buildings and make you feel small. They make flippant comments from buses that imply you’re not sexy enough and that all the fun is happening somewhere else. They are on TV making your girlfriend feel inadequate. They have access to the most sophisticated technology the world has ever seen and they bully you with it. They are ‘The Advertisers’ and they are laughing at you.
> You, however, are forbidden to touch them. Trademarks, intellectual property rights and copyright law mean advertisers can say what they like wherever they like with total impunity.
> Fuck that. Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It’s yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head.
> You owe the companies nothing. Less than nothing, you especially don’t owe them any courtesy. They owe you. They have re-arranged the world to put themselves in front of you. They never asked for your permission, don’t even start asking for theirs. - Banksy
It doesn't give me a lot of hope we'll be able to reclaim our public spaces from being littered with ads anytime soon.
> Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It’s yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head.
Best statement against 1) advertising, and 2) copyright, that I can imagine.
I think it came from his book "Cut it Out". There's some debate about how much of it is original. with some people saying it's similar to an article written in 1999 by someone named Sean Tejaratchi for a magazine called Crap Hound. I've never read the article or the book though, I just found the text online.
And I do mean see it. Read the damned thing, or at least the first dozen pages or so. It's a highly-readable, information-dense, and exceedingly insightful look at the development of commercial publishing in the US at the time, and its author is a magazine publisher himself.
Hard to believe this was already being articulated so clearly over a century ago:
> No wonder that the man who realizes the significance of all these figures and the trend disclosed by them is coming to look upon the editorial department of the newspaper as merely a necessary means of giving a literary tone to the publication, thus helping business men get their wares before the proper people.
> Thus you see advertising has made possible the great complex papers and magazines of the day with their corps of trained editors, reporters, and advertising writers, in numbers and intellectual calibre comparable with the faculty of a good-sized university. Advertising makes it possible to issue a paper far below the cost of manufacturing — all to the benefit of the consumer. So far as I know there is not an important daily, weekly, or monthly in America that can be manufactured at the selling price. But, on the other hand, with the growth of advertising a department had to be created in every paper for its handling. As advertising still further increased, rival papers competed for it and the professional solicitor became a necessary adjunct of every paper, until now the advertising department is the most important branch of the publication business, for it is the real source of the profits. Because the solicitor seeks the advertiser, and, therefore, is in the position of one asking for favors, he puts himself under obligations to the advertiser, and so in his keenness to bring in revenue for his paper, he is often tempted to ask the aid of the editor in appeasing the advertiser. Thus the advertiser tends to control the policy of the paper.
> And this is the explanation of the condition that confronts most publications to-day. By throwing the preponderating weight of commercialism into the scales of production, advertising is at the present moment by far the greatest menace to the disinterested practice of a profession upon which the diffusion of intelligence most largely depends. If journalism is no longer a profession, but a commercial enterprise, it is due to the growth of advertising, and nothing else.
It's interesting to look at what made newspapers reasonably immune to such pressures in the years after Holt's book / lecture. I'm a bit hazy on details, but generally:
- Growth especially of large-city dailies and some consolidation of markets effectively gave newspapers some market leverage over most advertisers. There were still some somewhat-untouchable entities, but for the most part, a reasonably-strong editorial independence was achieved.
- It was also possible to go muckraking in another district --- outlying suburbs or cities elsewhere in a state or country, which didn't contribute advertising to that particular institution.
- Increased reliance on classified advertising and legal notices. Each of these were huge contributors to newspapers' revenues, whilst at the same time giving relatively little risk of an advertising boycott. The dawn of Internet classifieds (Craigslist gets a lot of blame, but it was pretty much inevitable, someone would enter that niche) was absolutely devastating in that regard.
There's another bit of media history that I think pairs excellently with the Holt book. It's a 1970s interview with I.F. ("Izzy") Stone, on the PBS programme "Day at Night". That's on YouTube, which is ... somewhat less accessible to me with its current shenanigans, but might be available here:
In particular, Stone calls out the distinction between major city dailies, which had strong editorial independence over local businesses and politicians in the 1970s, versus small-town and rural newspapers, which were far less independent. Keep in mind that this interview occurred in the shadow of the Watergate scandal, in which two reporters literally brought down the President of the United States --- it was a high-water mark for journalistic independence and power.
> And advertisement is the rich asking for more money.
Actually, one of the main innovations of the past 20 years is that advertising has become easily accessible to those who are not rich. Small businesses and individuals can easily become advertisers on FB, Google, Etc. This has helped, many, many people earn a living. Myself included. I'm certainly not a millionaire.
> It is really not so repulsive to see the poor asking for money as to see the rich asking for more money.
Does this guy really not understand the difference between someone asking for money in exchange for nothing as opposed to asking for money in exchange for something of value? If Coca-Cola was advertising a Venmo address to send them money in exchange for nothing it would be much more annoying than what they currently do.
In context he's responding to the negative views that his fellow English expressed at the time (1920) towards people who were aggressively selling their services as tour guides in Jerusalem. He's pointing out that they put up with equivalently aggressive sales tactics in London, with the only difference being that it's the rich asking for more money rather than poor people trying to scrape by.
Hasnt there been numerous reports of Coca-Cola consuming so much drinking water in local communities to make their product that the locals end up having to buy Cola for hydration instead?
In some places local communities are also dependent on bottled water because their tap water isn't safely drinkable ... and it's not rare for Coca-Cola to own one of the major bottled water brands, as well as Coca-Cola being a popular drink itself. Everything I just described is true in Mexico for example.
Materially speaking, there's barely a difference. It's actually funny you mention pop/soda, because it's nearly free to produce. It's water with some flavour and sugar, in a plastic or glass bottle.
this is kind of disingenuous. the "bill of materials" for a bottle of soda may be measured in cents, but most of the $1.75 you pay at the store is the cost of getting it there and storing it. it's not a phenomenally profitable business.
but besides that, people actually enjoy drinking soda. I certainly do from time to time, and I don't find the price unfair.
Uhhh, yes, soda is phenomenally profitable, especially considering all the accounting loopholes to make expenses appear far higher than reality (not that this is unique to any given corp).
> CocaCola revenue for the twelve months ending March 31, 2023 was $43.493B
> CocaCola net income for the twelve months ending March 31, 2023 was $9.868B
> CocaCola net profit margin as of March 31, 2023 is 22.69%.
> CocaCola net profit margin as of March 31, 2023 is 22.69%.
Which means that it costs them $1 to produce every $1.23 of soda that you purchase. This is a long-shot from being "nearly free" as you claimed earlier, and materially different from "asking for money in exchange for nothing".
That's not a cost to produce their product, or even ship it, or store it. That's strictly just "buying more customers", which has no bearing on my initial claim - that soda is extremely cheap to produce.
Well if you want to ignore things like advertising and other administrative expenses (which are necessary when running a global beverage company), you will still find that their Costs of Goods Sold is 40% of their revenue: https://investors.coca-colacompany.com/filings-reports/all-s...
Again, materially different from asking for money in exchange for nothing.
> Which means that it costs them $1 to produce every $1.23 of soda that you purchase.
That's not correct. The $1.23 you pay at the store includes wholeseller/distributor and retailer margins. The wholesale price of that soda is maybe a quarter of the retail price. So for Coca Cola the bottle the production cost and shipment to a distributor was less than 20% of the retail price.
the concentrated syrup is indeed much cheaper to get to the retail location, and typically the retailer does make a large margin on fountain drinks. at a restaurant, this typically offsets the very tight margins on their other offerings, similar to alcohol.
tangent: I've been to some restaurants that charge $5+ for a fountain drink, presumably to mitigate the lost profit on alcohol. it would be interesting to know why the business model is that way, instead of just pricing a moderate profit into both food and drink.
In regards to your tangent, it's because drinks are not the attraction, so people are relatively price-insensitive to (or price-unaware of) them. People think "I want a burger", price-compare burgers, and choose the place with the $5 burger over the place with the $7 burger. They don't notice that their side and their drink are each $1 more at the $5-burger place, and that both meals cost the same at both restaurants. Instead they think "geeze, I'm glad we went here. Who'd pay $7 for a burger? That place is a ripoff."
That's only compounded by the tendency for drinks and sides to be impulse-purchases - easy up-sells that no one walked in intending to consume. And, if choosing the $5 burger has maybe embedded the idea that your place is "cheap", then so much the better, as that makes them likely to spend a little more than they would have at the other place: "I saved $2 on the burger, so I can afford an extra side!"
Tl;dr: Commodity restaurants are trapped in an equilibrium where food has to be a loss-leader for sales of drinks and fries.
Its not really for nothing is it? You 'feel good' in exchange for giving money to a poor person. Isn't it the same feeling albeit for a different reason that Coca-Cola is selling?
Every fast food drive thru now asks if you want to "round up" your total for some charity of their choice. Not because they want to make the world a better place, but because all that "rounding up" becomes their charitable donation, reducing their tax burden without costing them a cent in actual charity.
Overall I agree, but I will play devils advocate and say that an ad can also be useful for raising awareness that a product exists. Perhaps rather than outright condemning ads their display could be limited to only immediately after the product is first released (e.g. limited only for N days).
Bless you! In my late 30s, I went serious about getting ads out of my life. I noticed they were propaganda and brainwashing usually with seriously dark undertones. I stopped watching sports and TV, stopped reading news articles, stopped looking at billboard highway signs, etc. I had no idea how much the advertisements controlled how I felt and thought. I wish we could have stricter laws against advertisers. I believe people would be much happier if they took an honest look at their tradeoff of "free things" for advertisement glances. If people did this, I believe we could radically transform our society, and live in one where advertisement is small, and people give small amounts of money to the things they want to see.
wont help much because people are themselves walking ads, always self promoting, constantly mirroring what they are told from somewhere else or by someone else
> In my late 30s, I went serious about getting ads out of my life.
Have you also cut everything out of your life that's financed through ads? So I'm expecting you to not use any Facebook, Google, Twitter, Youtube or other modern web content.
I agree that ads are manipulative. That's their very essence. But they exist for a reason. Not to enrich people, but the uphold one side of a bargin. You can't expect everything to be for free.
Please spare us this moral preaching. Google is block ads because it hurts their bottom line. They could care less about the people who actually make the things people come to the platform for.
All of the examples exist there to enrich those running the platform, and not for the benefit of those producing content. Those companies are worth what they’re worth now because they only pass on a pittance of the advertising money they draw in.
I'm not even talking about those producing content. It's their choice to upload things.
But the platform itself needs to be paid for as well. You think Youtube should provide video hosting for free? Facebook should provide their .. social network stuff for free? Twitter should serve tweets for free? No? Then either pay or watch ads.
A) for a long time most of them did not provide an option to pay to remove ads.
B) Many of these companies have such large content hosting fees because of the very nature they chose to set up under. For example: YouTube chose to centralize and host all of the videos itself, and it chose to continue pursuing that route rather than experiment with technologies that could distribute that load and make their server costs significantly decrease. Why? Because it gives them a choke point with which they can extract money and leverage over everyone else.
Further, just like I don’t have a right to tell Facebook how their computers should run, they don’t have a right to tell me what my computer has to display.
> B) Many of these companies have such large content hosting fees because of the very nature they chose to set up under.
If an economically more viable alternative exists then you are welcome to create a competitor. The fact that there is no such thing is strong evidence that they've already hit the economical sweet spot.
> Further, just like I don’t have a right to tell Facebook how their computers should run, they don’t have a right to tell me what my computer has to display.
Correct. Nor do you have a right to tell them not to try to prevent you from avoiding that ads are being displayed on your computer.
> The fact that there is no such thing is strong evidence that they've already hit the economical sweet spot.
This is a simplistic take. First of all, even if it’s true now it does not make it true for all time. Blockbuster hit a real sweet spot for video rental until the tech landscape changed under their feet.
Secondly, and more importantly. Economical optimal for what end? For extracting profits and creating a system where it’s difficult for either side of the network to go elsewhere? Cause it’s not optimized for providing most of the revenue to the people creating the content.
Further I’m willing to bet that most of these services would be significantly technically easier to run if all of the advertising and tracking aspects were stripped out. Which in turn means that it may be possible to architect them differently since you now have different requirements and constraints.
> Nor do you have a right to tell them not to try to prevent you from avoiding that ads are being displayed on your computer.
Correct. I never argued to the contrary.
The thing to keep in mind is that they need us more than we need them. The world existed and functioned before all of these companies and will continue to do so after they’re all gone.
> This is a simplistic take. First of all, even if it’s true now it does not make it true for all time. Blockbuster hit a real sweet spot for video rental until the tech landscape changed under their feet.
True. I'd love to see a competitor someday whom I can just pay and then have a Facebook-equivalent and Youtube-equivalent that doesn't spam me with ads and does not collect my behavioural data to profile me.
I think people would just be shocked how much they would need to pay for their FB account if that would be an alternative offering. Back-of-the-envelope calculation: 2022 FB had a revenue of about $116bn. With about 3bn users. Let's say half of those are actually dead accounts that people almost never log into. (And that's very generous, this number is probably much higher.) That leaves 1.5bn users. To generate $116bn you'd need $77 from each of them. I know very few people who would pay that much money every year to see their aunts cooking results and their uncles Trump posts.
> Secondly, and more importantly. Economical optimal for what end? For extracting profits
Yes. That's what our market-based economies are optimizing for. Other economic models have not proven to be viable.
I disagree with the framing of the back of the envelop calculation.
First of all, that’s revenue, not profit. Looking at revenue is meaningless since it’s easy to take in lots of money and still be in the red.
Secondly, a competitor to Facebook does not need to have facebook’s profitability in order for it to be a viable business model.
By your analysis we can look Twitter and gry get the amount of money that people would have to pay to Mastadon in order for Mastadon to be a competitor. Except that the analogy breaks down because because the underlying technology is different. I won’t be paying server fees to “Mastadon” I’d be paying to an instance.
Likewise, wow google drive for sending large files to people needs a lot of servers. Or, we set something up torrent style and then there is no separate server.
> The fact that there is no such thing is strong evidence that they've already hit the economical sweet spot.
It would only be evidence for that if there were multiple strong competitors to youtube that use similar methods. The dearth of competition suggests that other forces are the cause.
Consumers just don't want to pay for things they've gotten used to getting for free. You may not like it (I don't), but that's reality. Being angry at "big tech" for this is relieving the general population of their responsibility.
What competitors do you have in mind there? Do any of them get even 5% as much traffic? 1%?
Vimeo wants hosting fees for significant use, there's a few decentralized platforms without ads, nebula charges and doesn't have ads. Dailymotion fits the mold but this ranking site says they get 0.4% as many visits and each visit is 1/4 as long.
I'm not saying that things should all be free, I'm saying that youtube's "economical sweet spot" is one that is basically competition-free and because of that we can't learn much about what other viable forms the market could take.
There is no obligation on you or I to provide those companies with a viable business model, nor any moral compulsion to cooperate with their invasive, privacy and mental-health degrading ad-based monetisation strategy.
edit: My browser, my rules. Don't like 'em? Feel free to go out of business.
>You think Youtube should provide video hosting for free? Facebook should provide their .. social network stuff for free? Twitter should serve tweets for free? No? Then either pay or watch ads.
Not GP, but that would be nice. What would be even nicer is if each and every location that one of those organizations, as well as everyone who works for them or chooses to invest in them should be destroyed/die slowly and painfully.
If that were to happen, the world would be a better place.
Is that a fine enough point, or shall I elaborate further?
Honestly, I think Facebook and "social media" in general would be way better if they were paid services.
It's easy to think that people won't pay for such an experience. I think that's naive. There are plenty of examples of people being willing to pay for a premium experience when free/cheap options are available, like these:
- Apple convinced a LOT of non-audiophiles to pay $249 and $550 for Bluetooth earbuds and headphones (respectively).
- OpenAI is convincing millions to pay $20/month for ChatGPT+.
- Krisp makes a bunch of money over something that has a free alternative (software noise cancelling) because it's just THAT good.
- Tesla convinced a LOT of people to buy a Model 3 or Model Y over the Camry or Accord they were originally going to get.
I would LOVE to use Facebook or something like that but am not willing to have a non-governmental entity surveil my every move online in exchange, nor am I willing to be subjected to an experience that is constantly trying to get me addicted to using it.
It's not that some subset won't pay, its that it wont "grow" at the idiotic volumes that SV VC-based thought requires.
The 'infinite growth at all costs' model has rarely been seriously challenged, and as a result its become blase to think of a smaller scale but more stable and consistently successful business, and instead everything needs to lead towards monopolized or cartel-like "Big Tech".
>> There are plenty of examples of people being willing to pay for a premium experience.
That's true but their number will be extremely miniscule compared to freeloaders who love to consume a freely available resource!
In terms of "revenue/cost per user" metrics (which is more commonly used in IT industry), the ad model thus topples down the subscription model in the eyes of decision makers?
We have a saying in my country that roughly translates to “Stupids gift, but who don’t take are idiots”. If you give something away for free, there will be always someone who takes it. Facebook is free, and people were using it. But they left once people got exasperated due to ads and other stuff. TikTok is free now, but you’ll see a similar migration once the enshitification process begins.
I don’t have ads on YouTube in my country, but my feed is still being manipulated (it’s eery to see how they want my attention). I travel or use a VPN and the experience goes straight down the drain. I could pay, but would they stop manipulating the feed or collecting my data? I’ll be using YouTube as long as they keeping it free. If it becomes paid, I will if the terms are worth it.
I think it's impossible to get it down to 0, but yes, all though services were worked out of my life. I don't expect them to be free, I expect to pay for more services than your average person, and that's the point of my above post.
> psychological warfare that corporations wage against me
I see them as environmental pollution that affects the mind instead of the body (this also includes offline ads btw, I actually wish there were adblockers for the real world).
This seems like one of the best possible applications for consumer AR. I'd love glasses that would replace display cute animals on top of real-world ads.
when click rates go down, advertisers always choose to make the ad more noticeable by making it more obnoxious. at first it was a very small movement every few seconds. then two. then more movement more frequently until there were full games in the space of an ad. sounds and video came. interstitial ads came, and full page ads which covered what you were reading as you scrolled.
so, ad blockers were developed. at first they blocked simple URL patterns and that was enough to completely block ads from those who serve them. advertisers caught on and changed how they serve ads. rapidly. adblockers had to advance to keep up.
where does it end? it can't end, because one side or the other will win and there are enough people who don't want that outcome so they keep fighting for their own side.
things that are bad often follow this pattern, it seems. if you are in an arms race of any kind you are either someone or something who wants money or authority more than anything else, or you are fighting against that force. both sides feel 100% justified in their actions. everyone nearby suffers.
I also block ads - BUT I do go pay for services that I use daily and get benefit from. Otherwise, the sites that I love would go away because it's not sustainable to employee people to write code and run servers without some sort of revenue.
I paid for YouTube for a few months, even though I run everything through pihole, but found that I didn't get enough value to justify the cost.
They're essentially charging 80% surplus to tack on a poor man's version of Spotify. I also don't get any other improvements to the service.
If they'd just give me a feature that gives continuity of play between devices I'd pay the full monthly price without blinking.
So many small QoL improvements that would make a huge difference but instead they're too busy removing voting buttons and testing obnoxious autoplay thumbnail ads.
Hm, I have the opposite point of view: I don’t see why anybody uses Spotify when Youtube gives you the same thing for the same price and throws in ad free youtube at no extra charge.
I tried YouTube music for a few months and it felt much more spaghetti-at-the-wall than Spotify.
My opinion is that this is because of the way that Spotify applies algorithm and curation in a highly unified way.
Spotify Radio, Release Radar and Discovery playlist are just wonderful. Right down to the ordering of the lists it accounts for broad tastes, current personal trends, building accessible gateways to new genres and so on.
YouTube Music felt a bit like the video algorithm. "You watched a Minecraft video? Prepare for the avalanche of tenuously related but quite obnoxious Minecraft content"
This is was weird to read... I was a Spotify user for a rather long time, but realized that instead of getting better, recommendations got worse, ultimately becoming quite repetitive. I've since ditched them, now using Deezer. The difference is like day and night - with Deezer, if I want it to generate a playlist based on a particular song, I actually get a playlist of songs which are similar to the one I chose and not just the popular songs of bands similar to the band of the song...
As for Discover Weekly, it was the worst offender, rehashing stuff Spotify knew I had listened to.
That is strange as it's not my experience, but I don't know how the algorithm functions internally. Sadly we are at the whim of it's hits and it's misses.
I am however left to assume, based on Spotify's broad success and appeal, that it hits a bit more frequently than it misses.
Curious if you found another viable alternative. Ive gone over to using Plex/Plexamp for music sync/cloud play and its been pretty okayish on the whole. Biggest issues are my server strength and internet connection
Source: I just tried it on my phone right now. platform - iOS (don't know about others). Also, possibly not possible for all songs or countries in the world.
Really the only reason I used Spotify over YouTube Music at all was that I could use my own clients with Spotify, but once Spotify killed that it was over to YouTube music for me for my streaming usage (though I buy a lot more downloads these days than my peak spotify usage days). YouTube Music doesn't have third party clients either, but with that selling point removed, ad-free youtube was a better add-on than anything spotify offered.
I was a mopify/mopidy fan for a while but my installation fell over about a year ago and I never returned to fix it - does that no longer work at all with Spotify APIs? If so, that's definitely a huge downside to Spotify (though I have no idea if it's possible with YT music).
Welcome to the wonderful world of A/B testing and/or gradual rollouts!
I have had the "continue playing from another device" feature for a good couple months at least, and it is clearly labeled as a "Premium" benefit.
Whenever I pause a video on one device, and open Youtube on another (Confirmed web desktop -> mobile app or mobile app -> web desktop, but I don't have a TV to test), the video that was playing on the other device shows up paused, as the given platform's miniplayer. Below you can see a desktop screenshot.
>Welcome to the wonderful world of A/B testing and/or gradual rollouts!
Good A/B testing only works if you're measuring for the right things. When you get into the realms of "engagement is down but revenue generated is at $X" and X meets a goal, you're doing it in bad faith.
Given that a big fat ad thumbnail is a pre-selected item that fills half the screen on the YT TV client, we are left to assume that engagement resigned from Google a while ago.
>Whenever I pause a video on one device, and open Youtube on another (Confirmed web desktop -> mobile app or mobile app -> web desktop, but I don't have a TV to test), the video that was playing on the other device shows up paused, as the given platform's miniplayer. Below you can see a desktop screenshot.
This doesn't work at all for me TV -> TV. TV -> mobile device also does not work. I'd be interested to know, if you do try this with TV, whether you can get it to work.
If I ever get the chance to try it I will attempt to tell you the results, but don't hold your breath. I don't know anyone with smart TVs who would also be okay with me spending an hour messing up their settings to log in with my account.
> Good A/B testing only works if you're measuring for the right things. When you get into the realms of "engagement is down but revenue generated is at $X" and X meets a goal, you're doing it in bad faith.
Sure, and that doesn't stop people from doing it anyway. Pointless mass-gaslighting, but it makes you look busy.
> If they'd just give me a feature that gives continuity of play between devices I'd pay the full monthly price without blinking.
What specifically are you looking for? e.g. was watching a video on my computer, powered that off, opened youtube on my phone and the video I was watching was most recent thing in youtube history there with my position in the video tracked. Similarly I can use my phone or laptop to control Youtube on my TV. Seems like what you're looking for is already mostly here.
(I've been a Youtube Premium subscriber for the last year or so thus far).
This is the inconvenient version of what I want that takes several menu navigations to achieve it.
'Continuity' for me means a seamless experience. For example, Netflix used to be one click and is now two or three clicks which I find to be a worse experience.
The _perfect_ version of this for me would be a "Send to device" function to send from TV to TV in different rooms. Even being able to do a quick switch via my phone as I'm in transit (like I do with Spotify) would be a worthy middleground.
I was at first super confused by this comment, because cross play has been a thing for at least a year or two without YouTube premium. You just have to enable YouTube history and it will populate across devices. I know a lot of people disabled YouTube history because it tailors the experience but it's a fair tradeoff for continuity.
YouTube history is not the seamless experience that I get from literally every other content provider charging even less money than they do. Netflix, Amazon, BBC iPlayer, Spotify etc. all give me access to continue the last thing I was watching with a click, or even do so automatically (or have the option to). Some even have a "switch to room" function which is further empowering.
Having it hidden three menus away is archaic and not the 'continuity' I'm looking for. It's a small thing but it's a) painfully simple to implement and b) one of many of these kinds of small usability gripes that make it a lesser experience.
What about the ad-free experience? Isn't that worth paying for premium, considering the enormous amount of content on YouTube you can watch without ads?
> If they'd just give me a feature that gives continuity of play between devices I'd pay the full monthly price without blinking.
Probably you wouldn't. Then it would be some other feature needed to open the wallet.
> What about the ad-free experience? Isn't that worth paying for premium, considering the enormous amount of content on YouTube you can watch without ads?
To restate what I already said: will I pay to remove ads? Yes. Will I pay the price they're asking when I compare to the value and quality of service / UX other services I pay for? No.
> Probably you wouldn't. Then it would be some other feature needed to open the wallet.
You're wrong, but I don't need to justify it, I stated why in the original post. There's no need to be stubborn about it.
I think this is one of the biggest sales problem for any online service. People will not think about the actual value proposal, but instead compare it to things that are extremely free or cheap. Pay for Fastmail? Why would I when Gmail is free? Pay for Kagi search? Why would I when Google is free? Pay for a newspaper subscription? Why would I when they want the same monthly price as Netflix, and I watch Netflix every night.
My question is why do you compare? Just because both things are on a computer or telephone screen? I've never heard people compare with other things they purchase. Why would I pay for this cup of coffee when I get 15 minutes of use from it, when there is so much free content online? Why would I pay for this restaurant meal when I get several months of entertainment on Netflix for the same price?
People will agonize for weeks over a $5 or $10 subscription, but outside of the digital they won't think about spending the same amount on parking, a pint of beer, etc.
Since we have the idea that everything on the computer should be free, we get upset over the slightest annoyance and cancel/decide not to continue the service. But is that rational? Like people are itching for the slightest excuse to not pay.
YouTube has an enormous amount of entertainment and also educational content, like videos on how to fix things that have personally saved me at least hundreds of dollars. It's a great value IMO.
Yeah. I'm not about to pretend I have a right to get content for free, so if the site offers a paid option to remove ads that I find obnoxious I'll take advantage of it.
A hill I’m happy to die on is: the standard of behavior appropriate for websites is you send whatever (not actively malicious or illegal) content you want, and the user renders it however they want.
If sites want to send me useful content and additional annoying content, I’ll just render the useful bit.
If sites decide they aren’t willing to send the useful bit unless enter some other sort of arrangement with them, that’s fair on their part, I’ll evaluate their other options.
I don’t feel any obligation to render ads or make their business model viable, of course it is no problem if they decide they don’t want me around as a result!
But then to circle back on the submission, do sites have any obligation to make it easy (or no harder than it initially was) for you to separate the useful from the annoying? No more than you have right (which I agree with) to render it differently to their desire, I'd argue.
I don’t think they do have that obligation. But the business model where ads are hosted in some ad network makes it pretty easy to differentiate between the good and bad content. It is a happy coincidence that this is the source of the most annoying ads generally.
Of course, business models might change. In that case my preferences probably will too, but I don’t think my reasoning will.
What if the “arrangement” is a TOS that you agree to, wherein you agree to render the content how they want? Will you stop using the site, or just ignore the TOS?
I will follow their TOS if they follow my local laws regarding advertisements and legal liability (both in term of providing honest and fully disclosed commercial messages and in cases of malware). I strongly doubt they want that deal.
I’m not a lawyer but in the US at least, from what I’ve heard TOS requires affirmative consent.
I try to quickly check if I’m agreeing to a cookie consent thing, or if it is a full TOS. But sites have so much garbage when you first show up nowadays. I’ll have to be more careful there.
Just circling back a bit, what IS advertising? I work at a relatively unknown company - it's not in anyone's daily vocabulary. It exists, but barely. It will actually die if it's not marketed, advertised.
Now I can just go, fuck it, I don't want to work for any company that advertises. Great. Where should I work?
If advertising was required, nobody would be using most open source applications. Nobody had to sell me linux.
A company website that tells me what the elevator pitch is, is advertising arguably, but is not in the same category as putting a message in something I want to consume. The difference is push vs pull. If I have to seek out your message, if I ask you a question, then it's perfectly acceptable to answer.
The second you answer a question I've never asked, you are morally repugnant and harming society as a whole. It's an inevitable slippery slope to literal mental manipulation at that point. There is no "push" advertising that can NOT go that route, as it is inherently a hostile relationship, with independent competitors.
I feel like the problem here is that we do not have an effective way to match products with consumers who may find it useful without bad actors gaming the system. Companies with a modest marketing budget try to be as targeted as possible with advertising but companies with stupidly large budgets will optimize for “engagement and enragement” which will end up with them creating obnoxious advertisements that are spammed across all channels they can regardless of relevance because they can.
It’s a sad problem that we can’t expect to solve if we continue to limit our discussion around the symptoms of the diseased advertisement industry rather than the root causes of this cancer that ruins it for everyone like your company and most other small and medium sized players.
100% agreed. If content is provided for free along side content (ads) that the site wants me to view for their own reasons, I'm under no obligation to view the content they want me to view.
If the site needs me to view content in a specific sequence, then they need to deliver it as such. Otherwise, I'll ignore (technically block) any content other than that in which I'm interested.
Everybody should have line item veto rights for code running on their computer.
if youtube wanted to make the ads unblockable, they could embed them in the primary video stream. They won't do that because then they would have to expend the computational effort of muxing the content instead of offloading it onto your computer. They want their code (javascript) to manage the ads to run on your computer and they want to be able to treat your computer as their slave.
Sadly, a Youtube Premium subscription only removes the ads. They still collect all the data about you.
Remember that you are not just paying with ad eyeballs, but also with your data. When what where how much you watch. That's nobodies business. I'd pay for not having this be in somebodys DB, ready to be exploited (and/or leaked).
And they definitely don't need to join it with data about my phone location history and my search history. Or evaluate which video I have watched for how long. Subscriptions, fine. Recent history, fine. Until I delete those, then I want them gone, not just some "delete" flag turned on.
I might consider paying for premium if this wasn’t Google we’re talking about, which I imagine is tracking your viewing habits in their profile of you so they can serve targeted ads on other sites that use Google Ads.
> I might consider paying for premium if this wasn’t Google we’re talking about, which I imagine is tracking your viewing habits in their profile of you so they can serve targeted ads on other sites that use Google Ads.
So basically, you won't pay for premium because Google makes money by serving ads, but you also use an Adblocker (assumption)?
It’s not just established companies that you know to subscribe to. How does someone set up a new company or start selling a new product without advertising. People that are perfectly reasonable about some things can be so short sighted out how society even works.
> Advertisers have no morals, they're completely depraved. They'll eagerly exploit a teenager's self-conscious body issues to sell useless beauty products. They sell sugar water to fat people and at every turn promote the rampant consumerist culture that is destroying our planet. They're lower than pond scum and I never want to see a single ad from them ever.
Well said. While I recognize the right of people to put out messaging, advertisers seem to put out some of the most disgusting messaging ever.
The recent pushing of incredibly obese people as all healthy and normal is a very dangerous phenom. Many of us could afford to lose a few pounds, but the idea that BMIs > 40 are healthy is going to get people killed for certain.
Remember, they're not regular people putting out messaging because they believe in something (or even lying because it's funny), they are part of a machine that is incentivized financially to put out messaging regardless of whether the people making it believe what they're saying. That's a different ball game, and tbh, it should be illegal or tightly controlled.
Most people you see on the media are unhealthy. From the largest to the smallest, they're mostly all unhealthy and performing very dangerous things like prolonged dehydration.
So it's interesting to see how much focus gets shifted onto obesity specifically while ignoring all else. It's all disgusting messaging, that young model selling you a perfume who hasn't eaten anything but an almond all day, that shredded guy telling you to buy compression shorts, those obese people telling you these pants stretch.
In all honesty, I think you're hearing the wrong thing when you hear what the fat acceptance-people are saying.
Given the context that:
- Dieting, on a population level, has proven to be an ineffective means of curbing obesity (the only statistically effective method is bariatric surgery)
- The message that has, throughout the obesity epidemic, been pushed is that those that suffer from obesity are to blame for their own condition, and that they are essentially less valuable human beings for it in more than a few ways
- Obesity appears to be, according to the best research currently available, a disorder of the brain
Most of the fat acceptance people are merely trying to counteract the less valuable-part of how obese people are viewed in society. It's not a single-messaged group, and some of the things that some of them say is probably not a force for the better, but the message that obese people should not be scolded, chastised or in any other way treated negatively for their condition is actually a good message which any empathetic adult should follow.
> "I grew up changing the channel on TV when ads came on, and ripping adverts out of magazines before sitting down to read them."
Ultimately, this is the thing that matters. Back when I was a kid, I muted the TV or changed the channel during the ads break. Imagine if the technology had existed back then to prevent me from muting the sound or changing channels!
Imagine... just imagine if ads were broadcast directly to your brain like in Minority Report. Would people here also defend the advertisers, "you can't have stuff for free!".
Ultimately, I don't want to see ads. I'm sorry that so much of the current "freemium" web wants me to see ads, because I don't.
I pay for YouTube Premium because of several reasons, but before it I used an adblocker. I adblock the web.
When broadcast-ads-to-your-brain tech becomes real, I sure hope I'll be able to block it too.
I wish this view was mainstream. I also used to change the channel when ads came on, or at least muted and briefly did something else. I will never tolerate ads, and especially never pay to be advertized at.
I still do, though I hardly watch much regular TV anymore. Can’t listen to a radio either, not enough music in between stations to get away from ads.
I pay for a few subscription services and get my entertainment _mostly_ ad free. Unfortunately there’s no similar subscription I can buy to escape advertising as I walk down the street.
I block ads because they're a security risk. I have encountered browser-based attacks from ads that are supposed to come from reputable ad brokers, including on YouTube once. As long as the brokers don't properly vet the ads, those malware bits are not getting into my computer.
I really don't understand how Google and Facebook lost control of their own platforms to the extent that they actually serve malicious advertising.
Some people use the excuse of 'scale', and "can't monitor everything", but it's not like Google and Facebook don't have the resources to solve it, it's just that they have no motivation to solve it because it's not costing them anything to be a platform for malware and scams.
>it's just that they have no motivation to solve it because it's not costing them anything to be a platform for malware and scams.
While that's true, it glosses over the fact that not only is it "not costing them money," it's bringing in revenue -- those malware/scams are paid-for ads after all, aren't they?
What's ironic in my case is that I actually liked looking at ads in print. It doesn't matter if it's newspaper, magazine or comics.
I agree with the other commenter that ads have become so obtrusive that it's being dealt with in the same vein as malware. It's just malware from the techno oligarchy.
I like coupons, which are ads. Companies are paying me for my attention. Maybe I get a few dollars off a sandwich that I otherwise wouldn't have bought, but it's a pretty fair deal.
ads in print are one of the few ads I see as somewhat okay. if I want to go and look in the classified section of the newspaper for a car or a specific service or something else, fantastic. I can choose to do that and then look away and do something else. it isn't moving and flashing in my face, it isn't assaulting my ears, it isn't even a smell that's been carefully engineered to be recognisable from 30m down the street. it's still not ideal, especially when it's a full colour spread on the first page of the publication, but it's better. the other ads I see as acceptable are for example in the window of an estate agent or in a brochure for a particular service or set of services. stuff you have to actually consent to see
They also sent us boxes and boxes of magazines. We had a stack of National Geographic magazines that was at least seven feet high. We had Time, Newsweek, Rolling Stone, Popular Science/Mechanics, and others I can't remember now.
When I was growing up in the east, we received boxes of recorded TV from our relatives in the USA. I loved watching all the ads especially the toy ads. All my friends wanted to hangout in our place because we have so much movies, cartoons and tv shows on VHS.
> I block ads because they're psychological warfare that corporations wage against me. I don't care how unobtrusive the ads are.
I hate ads as much as the next guy. But that's the economic model most of the web is built on. Anybody without a youtube premium subscription who rants about youtube ads is just hypocritical. How should this be financed? Either you give your money or your eyeballs. Nobody is going to work for free so you can watch cat videos.
Please don't come with morals here. Expecting things for free is just as morally problematic.
They made people to expect stuff for free. It was their market strategy to offer basically free service to get people locked in. It is their fault they should pay for it.
It is called bait and switch which is a blatant fraud. Only that they stretched it into long years.
Now they switch by introducing pains option and making free one unusable by shoving ads every minute.
> It is called bait and switch which is a blatant fraud.
Sorry, this is just not true. If you let yourself get baited, then it's your responsibility. Don't lift the responsibility from the general populace of mostly mature adults. If they like to see ads then it's their problem.
I don't know what you're saying here. Bait and switch is fraud. When adults fall for fraud it is still the fraudster who is in the wrong, not the victims.
If enough people get baited, that creates a network effect and locks creators into that, no matter how much of a smart fish you are. Most people don’t like to see ads. They like to see the content without thinking too much about a platform it resides in.
It's easier to criticize the baiter than the baitee, but that may be barking up the wrong tree. Tech companies are acting within the economic and regulatory framework. Criticizing them for doing so is not helpful. Ironically, I'd guess that the majority of the HN crowd is actually making their living directly or indirectly off that.
Mostly mature adults addicted to cigarettes, caffeine, alcohol and cheap dopamine.
Voting for whoever shouts louder.
Don’t overestimate being mature. I’m 35 and look at my aunts and uncles turning 65 and 70 it is so much different view from when I was 15 to 25… it is just people.
I agree! I'm very disappointed with my fellow humans too! But what do you want to do? If you reduce how much the general population can impact their life then you are doing democracy a disservice. As sad as that is.
I don't follow. I don't have integrity because I'm consistent in my replies?
I also don't see how turning this discussion into ad hominem against myself is meaningful. Attacking that I'm using a throwaway? Seriously?
Yes, my comments may be dark. It's because my view on society is dark. It just does not help to blame big tech for the laziness of people to not want to pay and watch ads instead.
face it, the youtube offering is just kinda shitty. its like with piracy of music, movies and such, it is a distribution problem. Does it make it legal in the case of music/movies? probably not. Is it legal to adblock? in most places, yes.
could one make an argument of it not being morally justified? maybe.
does youtube, in the way google/alphabet wants to run it suck? most definitely. Is it possible to easily work around some of the biggest stuff here? yes.
well this is what a great many people choose to do, and youtube had better accept reality and deal with it. If they make it impossible to block ads, that is probably within their rights (assuming they implement some technical solution themselves), but that will come with some consequences
If the current economic system doesn't allow for a web where I can watch cat videos for free without being psychologically terrorized by megacorps, then perhaps the economic system is the problem.
You want an economic system that provides you cat videos for free?
I'm quite ok with markets and capitalism. Should be regulated, but if you get your wish then there will be 300+ Americans who also want a wish. I rather have people pay for their wishes.
This model not only profits from the aforementioned, but also aggressively competes with other activities people could participate in instead of watching ads mixed with highly monetized cat videos. The implied question here is what would happen if it fails? The answer is something else, not the end of the world. If it can’t be financed (or at least behave) otherwise, maybe it simply shouldn’t.
Apparently most people don't care though. So, whom are you criticizing? Youtube for providing a service that's populare despite their way of financing which you personally don't like, but others don't have a problem with? Or the other viewers for not joining your boycott?
The ads interrupt the videos in really obtrusive ways: not at sensible commercial break points like TV ads or before the movie like in a movie theater, but frequently with timing that totally destroys the mood and experience of the surrounding seconds or minutes of the video. And they're getting longer and longer - I recently experienced half a minute of two back-to-back ads partway through an 8-9 minute video, and I'm not at all sure there wasn't also an ad before the video in addition to that. What an awful ratio of content to ads.
It bothers me far less to have ads at the start of a video, between videos, or even at transition points between coherently separate segments within a video than what YouTube is now doing. That's not hypocritical.
(Tangent: I do have a YouTube Premium subscription, but for irrelevant reasons we usually watch using my wife's account and she does not have one. So I see the ads anyway. Maybe that's the reverse kind of hypocrisy to the one you mean, where I'm wasting my money instead of being stingy?)
Check out enshitification. No one went into google or youtube knowing that in 20 years time, their service would be overrun with ads. Everyone has been lured into cheap services by the deliberate and dishonest behavior of the providers.
As a consumer, I do not care. If I can get a thing for free AND ignore your suggested content, I will do it 10 times out of 10.
If you don't want to offer a thing for free, then don't offer a thing for free.
If your business model is to offer a thing for free and then to somehow profit from that, well then it is your problem. When you give away a thing for free, expect people to take it for free.
They're not offering it for free. They're offering it with the arrangement that you pay for it by rendering ads. The fact that you can get away with violating that arrangement is frankly a starkly amoral attitude
It's the exact same logic as stealing from a roadside honesty box (or a corner shop who can't easily detect petty theft) and then saying "tough! Their business model isn't my problem! I could take it for free so clearly I should be allowed to" when morally called out for it
I disagree entirely that stealing from a corner store and not rendering ads are comparable. In one instance, I take an item that another person has paid for and expects to sell it at a profit. If I steal it, I am depriving the store owner of that item and the profit they would have made.
If I choose to view free content and not render ads, no one has lost anything. While yes, the site owner does not get the profit from "selling the ad", it is not theft in the same way if I were to walk into a store, look around, and not buy anything is not theft.
This reminds me of a softer version of the famous Bill Hicks standup routine on advertising that hilariously really pisses off people in advertising in Youtube comments. Advertising does a lot of good for the world according to people that majored in marketing. Alas, I have to agree with Bill on this one.
>I block ads because they're psychological warfare that corporations wage against me. I don't care how unobtrusive the ads are.
Lol, then there are ads like the Liberty Mutual ads. All I know is I will never, ever purchase car insurance from that shithole from having been made to watch their obnoxious ads on loop.
Your comment gave me one of those funny moments where you realise something that should have been obvious but you never saw it being done, or heard about it being done, and simply never thought of it...
You can just rip the adverts out of magazines. I shall be indulging in this on the rare occasions that I end up reading something of that sort when I'm out and about. Cheers.
In that case, you better either subscribe to Youtube premium or not watch Youtube. It makes me sick when people "exploit" all of these amazing videos people have made on Youtube but refuse to help compensate them for their work by not at least subscribing to premium.
Every creator I watch gets their money through merch, patreon, sponsors, basically everywhere BUT youtube, because nearly every single video will be "unmonitized" or copyright claimed by someone who doesn't even own the rights and cannot be challenged in an unbiased setting.
The only people who make meaningful advertising money from youtube are the ones in the extreme high value advertising niches, like Swell Entertainment when she does a tech related video (though she still makes way more money from sponsorships) or all the Logan pauls making clickbait screaming content for literal children to mindlessly consume all day because their parents can't afford baby sitters because all the money goes to advertising behemoths instead of the workers.
I actually WANT youtube to be a great, pro-creator platform, where I have to pay to see people who feel that youtube gives them support and good tools to do their damn job. But that's not an option. The only option available is for me to pay youtube to remove their horrifically overbearing advertising, often from advertisers that are fraudulent, so I can watch videos from creators who genuinely hate youtube for making their lives hell.
I will not give youtube a dime until they stop viewing creators as replaceable cogs in a machine designed to grind them to dust for every second of content they can produce and then cast them aside.
I mean fuck, does youtube even send content creators documents to help them prepare their taxes? These people are all technically self employed, couldn't a behemoth like google help them get a pooled health care scheme that was affordable to middle size creators?
I also run an ad blocker, with extra rules to ban content I don't want to see, such as the terrible "shorts" mind-ebola, as well as a bunch of regexes for clickbait titles and a big ban list of channels that is updated often.
SponsorBlock to remove baked-in advertisements and other misfeatures like interaction reminders.
Now I am also using the beta DeArrow extension to disarm the thumbnails/titles a little bit by replacing them with random frames from the video.
I think the hip way to say it is "I'm between jobs" currently, but when I had a stable income source I would do eventual donations to channels of my interest, which according to some creators even a single USD is way more than the average lifetime return of a single viewer due to ads/YTP.
The only reason I haven't subscribed to Nebula / CuriosityStream instead, which seems to be a much healthier platform, is precisely because they advertise it so much. Also because I do appreciate more entertainment-y videos sometimes, not just edutainment.
A couple uBO filter rules, paste it to the "My filters" tab on the settings:
! Nuke high contrast elements
www.youtube.com##ytd-feed-filter-chip-bar-renderer
www.youtube.com##yt-chip-cloud-renderer
! Nuke news sections and other "engagement boosting" sections of the homepage
! This breaks the channel page, I temporary disable the filter rules when I need to go in there. Selector can probably be refined
www.youtube.com##ytd-rich-section-renderer
! Nuke Shorts
www.youtube.com##[is-slim-media]
I also have a couple fixes on https://userstyles.world/style/6382/my-youtube-fixes which you can apply using the Stylus addon, these compact the layout a bit more, lowers contrast of "calls to action" like the Subscribe or comment buttons, as well as attempts to make the Theater view actually take all of the available screen space (without being actually fullscreen).
There is so much content on YT where the creators don't even get paid though. Even a popular video that would make money can become demonetized (but still runs ads!!). I much prefer to subscribe via patreon or other forms to support creators more directly.
This also ignores the in-video sponsorships and ads that creators will often include.
It's not like Youtube made the amazing videos, though. They might pay the actual creators a pittance, but they extract literal billions of value for the privilege.
I don't mind compensating the creators. I do mind compensating the middleman leech in between.
It's not that simple, though, because premium represents a lot more money than a normal month of ad income. It doesn't make me sick when people want to avoid spending >$100 a year. $2 a month to a random patreon would compensate creators more.
Ads can be useful for marketing moves, e.g. if you sell at discount or just a new product. Otherwise people would never know you have X too (or cheaper) because they remember that you didn’t last time.
But every time I turn adblock off accidentally or on purpose, it’s the same generic shit unrelated to my obvious interests. Nasal sprays, supplements, car dealerships, be-a-programmer courses. I have a non-zero, negative interest in these.
Need? Sure. But there are plenty of things that would make my life better that I learned about through ads.
I do run an ad blocker, because the web has spent too long spreading viruses and malware through ads to be safe _not_ running one. But I don't mind ads conceptually; they just need to be safe, not obnoxious, and not take up more of my time than the placement is worth (ie, a 20s ad pre-roll on a 15 second video).
I've recently come to the realisation that this happens in the streets too.
Every shop in my town is shouting at you to come in a buy crap with flashy signs and displays. Then recently I was in Münster (Germany) where they have some old-school facades for most shops that includes standardised lettering and zero advertisements. Its so much nicer.
I feel exactly the same as you about ads, and have built/owned my own ad network, as well as run nearly 90% of my business through ads. My business partners don't use ad block but I always use it, and they always tease me about it. Even if 1 second of my precious energy and mental well being is spent on hearing an ad accidentally I feel sick.
+1 about the 'waste my time filling my mind with unwanted trash' vibe. Like someone is killing me, suffocating me, taking my life away, or similar. Relates to "you are what you eat" ... I am what I think, experience, and am influenced to do.
There's a difficult problem of maladaptation and misleading that, to me, is coming from the meaning resulting from the repeated and well-known answer to, "who gets the money in the end", these days. I believe society would benefit from discussing value-propositions of adtech and the attention economy. I wish that we would take more seriously the social impact of our businesses, the richness or depravity which our business activity imputes.
More musing:
I used to work in adtech, not by choice, was transferred to that dept. Worked in in-app purchase tech throughout my 6-years at that co.
A trend in technology, now, seems to me to include: the crisis of Generative AI devaluing humans own ability (and effort) to recreate prior art, the dissatisfying Reddit value-exchange of creators feeling disrespected by site-operators, and the dissatisfying politics of left and right pursuits towards winning instead of promoting healthy human interdependence resulting in disaffected populace.
So in short, I think pop technology has overshot the goal.
Adtech is the simplest way to make money off provided-experiences, I believe. Subscriptions require too much buy-in, by comparison. Adtech is "just there".
This view (of the reality of content creation) imposes, I believe, an expectation upon all of us (who want to create or consume content) that there is nothing better - no better approach to celebrating human experiences than +1'ing to share one's individual influence/record-of-attention...and to me it conflates the point of life as being something to do with short-term financial success.
When it overlooks more true base human goals / pursuits of having babies, that happiness and comfort in safety, and the joy of growth.
I'd like for emoji-reactions, +1's, impression counts to be segregated more formally by businesses, so the boards of managing companies and stockholders could see also see the social impact of businesses.
Right-on. EG Often-repeated chirpy jingles with imperative lyrics will hang around in heads for decades. Couple of oldies:
"See the USA in your [??] ..."
"You'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with [??] ..."
Carpenter's They Live was great pointing out how many 'OBEY's are buried in adverts. 30 years before, Vance Packard The Hidden Persuaders was published. 2010, Eldon Taylor's Mind Programming.
Worse yet: TV tearing a great movie up into shreds punctuated with adverts (imagine doing that to famous paintings). I eventually dropped cable as a result.
"Lower than pond-scum" = all the disciples of Freud's nephew Ed Bernays.
In an ideal world a heavily modified form of ads could provide societal value. As a way to spread awareness that a problem has been solved, that there is someone who can provide actual utility.
E.g. I recently talked to an acquaintance about cooking and told them there's a kitchen utensil that would solve a problem they were describing.
Ads should be performed by 3rd parties (a mix of reviews and match-making?) that get paid by both the customer and the company whenever they facilitate a useful transaction.
And pay the customer when they took up their time with useless information (thus incentivizing getting out of there way when they're not doing their job).
This is the kind of clear headed thought the world needs right now. Thank you!
The world is run by scummy, greedy and straight up evil people and they have created a global public consciousness where that fact in itself is almost impossible to spread.
Advertising is how you make people aware of goods and services. It’s not inherently evil. No one is waging warfare with you, and advertisers aren’t completely depraved. How do people get away with saying this shit? This is crazy.
Have you bought anything from Youtube advertisement? Any time I tried to disable adblock in order to get acknowledged about what's up is advertizing I finished with immediate return. There is no category of goods which might be safely consumed from Youtube ads, probably because only idiots use to watch those ads nowadays.
> Do you pay for ad-free experiences when available?
Not OP, but I block ads for similar reasons. I do pay for ad-free experiences, but
1) often I'm shown ads anyway, and
2) there's typically no privacy-preserving way to pay. So in practice paying often implies a significant loss of control over managing your privacy
So my personal take is that we're not there yet in terms of having robust viable alternatives to the ad-block experience.
> 2) there's typically no privacy-preserving way to pay
This is exactly my problem. I log into as few services as possible and clear my cookies on browser exit. Of course this is supplemented by ad-blocking and blocking most 3rd-party scripts and cookies to avoid cross-site tracking. I have no way to pay for a service while maintaining that level of privacy.
Amen. I see advertising as a personal affront to my dignity. I try to remove or deface as much advertising as I can in my life without getting into legally black areas.
Storing and streaming is an expensive model, and the subscription price is a premium in the majority of the world. It’s actually impressive that so much content (both incredible and bad) is available, for “free” to so many.
I’m an ideal world there would be no ads, but we don’t live in one.
If you have such disdain for ads you should probably pay the premium or not use YouTube.
Right! Most days I'm just mindlessly clawing around my house, desperately unaware of what I "need" to live without the aid of hundreds of slow-loading data-tracking overwrought boxes of advertising festering my every vantage point.
Just this morning, I was on the toilet, about to finish up a shit. I reached instinctively to my left to grab... wait, the little roller is empty!
But...what used to be there? What was I about to grab? This is crazy, my mind is completely blank!
If only there were some kind of an unskippable 30 second movie with dancing animated bears that could remind me what product I might use adjacent to a toilet bowl to complete my biological morning ritual!
I laughed, but it's about finding new stuff not stuff you already know exists, and it works sometimes. Of course they made ads too intrusive so we block them now, but even then I did buy something I found very useful after seeing some of the few ads that slipped.
I think early 2000 adsense ads were the best. Just simple text or images and contextual to the content of the page you were on.
I find that ads are usually a very poor source of information when trying to figure out what product to buy. Ads are designed to deceive. They're supposed to make the product larger than life, more perfect than possible, and absolutely essential to your continued existence.
What I find more helpful is authentic experience from other consumers of that product. The authentic part is getting harder and harder to validate, of course.
Some adverts are informative. I saw a poster a few years ago saying Jason Donovan was in Joeseph in London as Pharaoh, I likely wouldn’t have known that without that poster at the station.
I didn’t mind skippable YouTube preroll adverts. Now they are unskippable, multiple ones, and appear mid video.
Howver I don’t watch YouTube enough to justify paying more than Netflix and Disney combined just to skip adverts (but not skip the burnt in sponsor adverts)
Is that how much it really costs??? Damn. I have to go to the top and read the comments again with this new information. I pay the equivalent of around $2.5 for 6 people. No way I would pay the same amount as Netflix or Disney, let alone the two together.
Ok so you want to find out about new products or services from other customers. So how do those other customers find out about the product? At some point there are no customers or so few that you never run into one of these customers. So what does a small company do at the stage where they have no word of mouth?
Imagine if it were your business for a second, you’ve created a new website or a new physical product and you want to get more customers or users, what do you do? It’s not going to sell itself if nobody knows it exists no matter how good it is.
I wanted a new small camera recently. How did I find it? By trying to find opinions of people who had owned different cameras, and comparing their opinions about the ones that they owned.
I didn’t need an ad to tell me to buy a camera. I didn’t see any ads at all! Rather, I decided “I wish I had something to take pictures with”, so I started researching how I could accomplish that thing.
And ads would not have helped me find the best camera option at all, in fact it’s probably a slightly negative signal — they must have big profits to spend lots of money on ads, compared to a company that just makes the best product and has their customers promote it for them.
Same thing with any other product. I see my coworkers using a terminal app I’ve never seen. It looks better than the normal one, so I ask them about it.
Yea aside from it indicating less budget for R&D, anything that’s ridiculously promoted probably means u would b spending significantly more than you should be for that lol.
It’s very simple and not even nuanced I’m just unsure why many seem to gloss over that. Perhaps I’m more jaded than most
I will always have a need for a VPN. I will never pay for NordVPN. Their level of advertising has me convinced they are up to no good regardless of whether that is true or not.
Hahah the other day a buddy asked me about Nord and after suggesting Mullvad for the life of me I couldn’t remember why I was wary about Nord. But that’s what it was, their incessant advertising.
Both of you are missing the point because you're confusing online advertising with traditional media advertising. PPC advertising is about making a conversion on the spot, since ROI can be directly measured. Media advertising is about context poisoning for eventual conversion.
You already know you need toilet paper. There are only so many brands to choose from. Every month, you have to make a decision about one of them based on whatever factors are important to you at that time. (For me, it's usually cost, ply count, and how likely it is that someone in the house is going to flush a massive wad of it and clog the pipe.)
The point of print/radio/television ads are to groom you into associating some positive feeling with a specific choice, whether or not it's new or you know about it. So the next time you're looking at the wall of toilet paper, you recognize the bear, the colors, the jingle, the florid language about its delicate softness upon your tender starfish, and get you to feel something positive enough to get you to gravitate toward it despite its higher price. Joy, lust, anger, and vanity are easy to appeal to.
They're not trying to inform you of anything or make you a die-hard fan. They're buttering you up to tilt your next purchasing decision in their favor. That's why advertising never stops; it's an endless loop of a handful of charlatans competing with each other to coerce you into buying their version instead of the other guy's.
Like, what new stuff? If that’s something that’s been around for years (like cameras), go ask friends or read some reviews or bug a salesperson in a camera shop. If that’s something that nobody knows about (yet) - well, you don’t know it exists hence you don’t need it. Don’t overcomplicate, keep it simple. That’s basic mental hygiene.
The new stuff you can buy is always limited to whats already available at your market. Your market might be your grocery store, walmart, amazon, a little local bodega, whatever, but if its not there you don't get it ads or not, and if its there chances are you can find it without an ad by going down the right aisle or using the right keywords.
Plus ads are fundamentally inefficient sources of information. Billboard lawyers like to flood the interstates with their "Accident? call me" signage, on the off chance someone without a lawyer has an accident and looks up and sees Jacob Emrani smiling on them. Big payoff for the lawyer if they do get a job from this ad, but for the vast majority of the millions of commuters a day who pass such an ad its probably a useless waste of thought to even catch one in your periphery.
Professional review sources like Consumer report, ATK, and Wirecutter are far better sources than a random ad. I don't think I would ever buy a random product from an ad without reading reviews unless it was something completely disposable, like a new soda, or something that you have to willfully make terrible to screw it up, like a t shirt
It was an half rack with width that can be regulated.
I knew I wanted an half rack or a rack, but the recommended ones on blogs and such were always too big for my taste (also I'm not gonna lift heavy, especially at home).
I actually stopped looking for one because I thought there were none fitting my needs,
then one day an ad slipped with this model that had good features and reviews and I bought it (after researching it more of course).
Not OP but anecdotal experience: Every once in a while I'll go to a store and wander the isles. I see things that I find interesting, but most of the time I don't buy them. Sometimes I think to myself: I would love to know more about topic X. So I use search engines and forums to look for more information on topic X. I happily filter ads because there is no net positive benefit from them for my life. I get excited about things without them, find things I need without them, and have no trouble with either.
Yes, this is the question for the ages. How can you possibly survive if you don't buy more stuff you didn't even know you needed. Clearly, that more than justifies any and all intrusive, exploitive, unethical practices. Won't someone think of the children (buying stuff they don't need).
P.S.: I have had any number of marketing types push back (vehemently) when I expressed my distaste for oppressive ad overload with "well you tell me what the alternative is...how else am I supposed to reach customers". And I have stopped even trying to be nice about it: Figuring that out is your goddam job. My job would be vastly easier if I could just say "all that stuff about ethics, regulation, legislation and simple common decency...that's really inconvenient and I'm going to ignore it". But I don't get to ignore any of that; I still successfully do my job. So why should marketing be somehow different.
Anyone in marketing who says "You tell me how to do my job without crapping on people" is lazy and incompetent.
I see ads when I watch Youtube on my TV, and basically not otherwise. I have never seen one and thought Oh yeah I want/need that, more often it's laughably off base. They could've trivially targeted to the video, but instead decided I might have some niche health concern which is demographically impossible.
Typically the content I'm trying to watch (even if unsponsored) is a far superior advert. I didn't know I wanted a powered/active cooler box (and definitely don't need one) until I saw an AvE video of one last night. Now I'd quite like Makita's, and in fact now I come to think of it I did even share the link with someone who is in the market for one. But the malgorithms did their best to make me learn about and want to buy shitty VPNs and maltesers instead. If I'm watching tool/DIY videos give me the tool ads? I might actually be interested? I might warm to the brand, associating it with my favourite channels?
Not that I want to be manipulated like that, it just seems bafflingly poorly targeted whenever I do see them that it's irritating and I'm glad I block them everywhere else.
Without advertisements, you have to be bothered by things enough to actually want to implement or look up a solution. When it comes to banal consumer goods, if you can't think of a product on your own, you probably don't actually need it.
Talking to people, and seeking things out myself when I perceive a need for something. If my shoes wear out then I'll decide for myself to seek out new shoes at a shoe store. If I don't know what brands are good, I ask other people what brand they use and if they're happy with it.
If I'm missing out on some product that I might like but I've never heard of because I block ads, that doesn't matter to me. If I don't know that I would want it, then I don't want for it. But generally, people talk about things worth talking about and I'd rather hear about new products from real people who don't have a commercial stake in promoting the thing.
This is either a sad reflection on society, or awesome sarcasm.
(Hoping for the latter, but have you seen society lately?)
The need comes first. If I have a need, I (re)search for solutions. The ad does not create the need.
Ads still work. They can generate a want, but if I never see the ad, I'll live happily on in blissful ignorance.
Building awareness is important for new products. Heck, I might like them. Not complaining about ads in general, just the ones that try to get between me and what I really want my to do. The ones that try to make my attention non-optional.
Those must die a fiery death.
The earlier 99 percent of human history was pretty garbage. Ads are pretty garbage too but I really don't get why people keep doing this thing where they're like "well how did we manage in the past?" In the past we just died of war and disease and stuff. The past is awful.
The past was awful for lots of reasons of course, but one was that we just weren’t very productive. We’re pretty productive nowadays. We could at least try a system where there’s enough stuff, but we find it naturally or by carefully weighing the pros and cons.
>but we find it naturally or by carefully weighing the pros and cons.
This system doesn't make sense... the incentives for producers don't line up with reality. Producers are incentivized to find ways to break your rules and advertise as if they do it alone, they will profit massively.
I call BS on that. People don't magically stop consuming just because they don't get ads shoved in their faces all the time. I block ads everywhere and haven't really seen an ad in years, but I still sometimes buy useless shit I don't need. It turns out search engines and price directories do a pretty good job of finding useless shit when you actively seek it out. As long as there is a demand for things, people will find it and buy it.
Hah I've run into this exact issue. I've always been the same way, if a medium has unblockable/unremovable ads I'd tend not to consume it; things like radio, magazines, etc. But I realized when I wanted to buy something I didn't even know what brands were in the space. It made doing research a bit trickier.
That doesn't mean ads are necessary though, frankly any system which depends on spending more than your competitors will never produce the best recommendations. Instead I learned to first build a list of companies in a space, then research those companies. I use things like Wirecutter, Reddit, and Productchart to help decide as well.
What I need aren't ads; I need good, user-centric, recommendation and discovery products. Sadly we fell into the local-minimum of ads instead. That said sometimes I do choose to let a company advertise to me in a specific channel (separate email or social media account) so I can keep up with their products and potential deals. That seems like a good middle ground for me.
At least if I get an advertisement I immediately understand the biases behind whoever served it to me, with stuff like reddit or blogs I can never be sure how astroturfed it is, or whether the people reviewing things even know what they are talking about.
I'm not a proponent of advertising in the modern sense, but it's probably the least dishonest way that companies pay to promote their product. Professional reviewers are a good medium but it takes time to find those in a new space where you're not sure if their standards and preferences match yours
That's where my mind went, too. I think part of the answer is that a lot of it can be replaced by nothing. Some of this stuff driving all these ads doesn't even enrich our lives anyway.
If I want to find new stuff then I would like to access a dedicated resource where all the promoted material could be promoted. Like a promotional book or email tab.
Everything is psychological warfare designed to make people consume as much as possible, beyond advertising. Even something simlpe such as a sale (FOMO), or pricing (99 cents).
The ENTIRE POINT of an advertisement is to extract wealth from you by getting you to spend money you wouldn't otherwise spend. If I want to learn about products and decide what to buy or try and solve a problem I have, advertising provides negative value to that, because advertising is inherently inaccurate and dishonest.
Advertising is just a disgusting tax on capitalism by a few cartels.
Get a billboard ban passed in your state. It's absolutely wonderful.
>To those men in their oddly similar dark suits, their cold eyes weighing and dismissing everything, the people of this valley were a foe to be defeated. As he thought of it, Dasein realized all customers were "The Enemy" to these men. Davidson and his kind were pitted against each other, yes, competitive, but among themselves they betrayed that they were pitted more against the masses who existed beyond that inner ring of knowledgeable financial operation.
>The alignment was apparent in everything they did, in their words as well as their actions. They spoke of "package grab level" and "container flash time" -- of "puff limit" and "acceptance threshold." It was an "in" language of militarylike maneuvering and combat. They knew which height on a shelf was most apt to make a customer grab an item. They knew the "flash time" -- the shelf width needed for certain containers. They knew how much empty air could be "puffed" into a package to make it appear a greater bargain. they knew how much price and package manipulation the customer would accept without jarring him into a "rejection pattern."
>And we're their spies, Dasein thought. the psychiatrists and psychologists - all the "social scientists" we're the espionage arm.
If that was the case why would YT be tolerating adblockers for so long and initially not even be playing so many ads? Why would they change their tune now?
Ah, could it be that they need to first get a market share that's so significant that they can actually enforce these rules, because there are only very limited options to choose from for people?
Cry me a river about YT not being able to pay their bills. That's ridiculous.
Because interest rates were historically low for the entirety of YT’s existence until recently. You’re seeing this happen with multiple platforms and companies suddenly caring way more about being profitable.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to explain this using interest rates. I mean, for sure, low interest rates made it easy to collect a lot of capital and lure users into a "free" service. It doesn't explain though why one would find this an acceptable and ethical form of doing business in the first place.
It was clear from day one of low interest rates that those wouldn't stick around forever. This business model is a pile of s** that breaks itself.
It appears as if the most 'successful' business people actually don't think a lot about any kind of sustainability in their decisions. It's just about quick growth. And when push comes to shove, they wine that they aren't able to pay the bills anymore, because of 'evil' users who don't want to watch their crappy ads.
I never opted into this economic arrangement. It's not my problem if businesses are operating business models that wouldn't work without advertisements. I'll continue blocking them, and if the business dies or needs to start charging me money to survive, then I'll decide if it's worth it to me to pay them or cry about the dead business.
Yes. Companies get paid to use psychological weapons on you.
Would you tolerate a cafe in Ukraine having reduced prices because it informs Russia when soldiers are visiting, so Russia can use weapons on the soldiers (i.e. shoot them in the face) and Russia pays it for that?
They're making a much broader point about advertising in general, while you're fixated on internet advertising.
What benefit do freeway billboards provide to my life? How about the spam mail I get in my mailbox? The bright and flashy signs for businesses along the road?
Every time I'm on the freeway I pass a few dozen ads selling liposuction or some other expensive and unhealthy "beauty" treatment. What value are those companies bringing to the world, and why should I have to put up with their ads? Just because someone bought property adjacent to the freeway?
Is it stealing if you watch the ad but close your eyes and plug your ears?
Why does Google want to charge advertisers to show ads to someone so determined to ignore them? If anything, if they force me to watch their ads and I ignore them, then Google is the one stealing from the advertisers.
I'm not going to buy an advertiser's product regardless of whether or not I'm forced to see its advertisement, and any counterargument to that must be built on the premise that advertisements can nonconsensually convince me to take action, in which case we're back to the beginning arguing about psychological warfare, where I certainly have a right to defend myself.
> YouTube, streaming services, etc. provide you a service in exchange for you also allowing ads to be loaded on your computer.
Users don't 'allow' anything: YouTube send data, the owner of the receiving device can choose what to do with that data (modulo copyright infringement, hate speech laws, etc.).
YouTube's business model is to bet that adspace included alongside videos can be sold for a profit. The price they can charge for that adspace depends on market conditions, which includes factors like the prevalence of adblocking. Blocking ads is not 'stealing', in the same way that using coupons isn't 'stealing'.
> YouTube has every right to try to punish this behavior or stop providing their service to you - such as by blocking ads, or even by deleting your account.
Obviously. That's why it's never 'your' account; it's owned by them, they can do what they want (modulo copyright infringement, hate speech laws, etc.).
> YouTube, streaming services, etc. provide you a service in exchange for you also allowing ads to be loaded on your computer.
I don't remember signing a contract with YouTube. They send my browser a list of "things" and their URLs required to render a page and, as my agent, my browser can freely load or ignore them.
> access, reproduce, download, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, alter, modify or otherwise use any part of the Service or any Content except: (a) as expressly authorized by the Service; or (b) with prior written permission from YouTube and, if applicable, the respective rights holders;
> circumvent, disable, fraudulently engage with, or otherwise interfere with any part of the Service (or attempt to do any of these things), including security-related features or features that (a) prevent or restrict the copying or other use of Content or (b) limit the use of the Service or Content;
Tell me where this shows up in the process of watching a YouTube video. On a fresh device I can navigate to their page, select a video, and watch it. Never in that chain of events is this agreed upon.
> Your use of the Service is subject to these terms, the YouTube Community Guidelines and the Policy, Safety and Copyright Policies which may be updated from time to time (together, this "Agreement").
> Please read this Agreement carefully and make sure you understand it.
> If you do not understand the Agreement, or do not accept any part of it, then you may not use the Service.
Even if it's not binding, it illustrates what Google intends to do (stop providing the service via an anti-adblocker script) if you do not follow their TOS.
I wonder if the reverse would also work. If my browser's source code included a "TOS" that "by uploading content to and executing code on my machine you give me a permanent and irrevocable right to view/read the content using any software of my choosing" would that bind Google as well? Wouldn't that illustrate my intent in accessing Google's services just as a EULA I never get to read illustrates theirs?
Right. If they get to push a TOS on me, I get to push one on them.
I want Google to pay my rent for the next decade, and Sundar has to offer a naked lapdance at the Pink Poodle every time they send me an ad I did not explicitly request to be shown.
> it illustrates what Google intends to do (stop providing the service via an anti-adblocker script) if you do not follow their TOS.
Yes. They have complete discretion over what 'list of "things" and their URLs required to render a page' they decide to send any particular user agent (modulo copyright infringement, hate speech laws, etc.). There is no requirement that HTTP connections to 'youtube.com' should receive video data; or even HTML; or even that anything's listening on that port.
From some Tor exit nodes (not all!), YouTube does present a modal to make you agree to the ToS before you are allowed to interact with the page. Probably some localities actually legally require you to do this, and so Alphabet complies.
They can wave that EULA around all they want but I'm not going to sign it. And even if I signed it, I wouldn't honor it. Why should I play fair with corporations, particularly corporations the likes of google?
That would appear to be describing attempting to hijack or interfere with the YouTube servers. Someone instructing a program on their computer to do something other than what the operators of the Service thought it would do has no bearing on the Service's ability to continue operating or on the availability of the Content.
It's sad to see this sort of thing on HN. A web browser is a user agent that operates on behalf of the user. Let's say it again for emphasis: the web browser serves the user, not the site owner. The user is free to manipulate the received web page however they see fit. If the site operator wants to get paid, they can put the service behind a login paywall, or else they can go pound sand. There has never, ever been an obligation for users to respect the wishes of site owners; once it is off your server and on my machine, it is my data to do with as I see fit, including blocking whatever ads the data happens to contain.
> If the site operator doesn't like it, they can put the service behind a paywall or they can go pound sand.
see:
> YouTube has every right to try to punish this behavior or stop providing their service to you - such as by blocking ads, or even by deleting your account.
That doesn't absolve the first sentence that attempts to frame adblocking as theft. This is playing into the propaganda from companies like Google that are attempting to ahistorically distort the social contract by asserting that they control the content that is displayed on my screen, which is not how the web works or has ever worked. It's not "stealing", "freeloading", "privateering", it's a public resource that companies have imposed themselves upon and are now attempting to assert ownership of.
The upside if they stop is, they’ll stop for our entire class of people. The reason we watch Youtube is that our entire generation watches it instead of doing something else.
If an entire class of people were drawn to something else, such as watching Nebula or going to coffee shops, both would be more interesting than they are now.
I'm sure there are some people out there who feel such entitlement. I haven't seen anyone claiming such entitlement here though.
Personally, I agree with the 'my device, my rules' comment. If YouTube want to (try to) block me, they can go ahead. They're under no obligation to serve me video content even if I didn't block ads, so it makes little difference.
Why do so many people feel entitled to tell me how to use my computer? If they choose not to serve their webpages to me, that's fine. To be realistic, I probably won't even notice their attempt because my adblocker will already have updated to bypass their silly attempt.
But yes, it is their right to try. Just as it is my right to install & use an adblocker.
You really do not want to use those kind of words around places with value added tax. The law basically says that if a person or company is providing a service in exchange for money, goods or services, the seller will have to pay value added tax on that exchange.
The way that advertisements in the past has managed to avoid paying this tax is that the service or product is given away for free along side the advertisement. Since it is not an exchange of services, and the product is being giving away for free with no expectation of any money, goods or services, there is no tax to be applied.
I realized a truism years ago: Anytime there are 3 or more parties involved in a business deal, at least one of them is getting fucked. And it's usually the least powerful party, which 99% of the time is just the ordinary user/consumer/taxpayer. However, not always. And sometimes it's two parties getting screwed. This happens a lot with government contracts. Where the people paid for it, the government got garbage, and the contractor(s) got rich.
And advertising is almost always a 3 party business deal. The merchant. The advertiser. The unwitting public. Sometimes the merchant gets screwed. Sometimes it's the advertiser. But almost always the target audience.
So when it comes to adblocking, I have zero sympathy for the advertiser or the merchant. I want zero advertisements in my life. But I get them anyway.
Online advertising is even more fun than that: There's the merchant/website, the advertiser, the ad network, and the public. You can even add the advertiser's competitors! The public gets ads they don't want, the merchant can fake some of their traffic, or maybe it's the advertiser's competitors. The ad network is ultimately not all that interested in giving the advertiser that great a deal, or even if they are, they might still lose to those trying to steal ad revenue. You then see a company that was trying to sell ads to sports fans in indiana, that see that all their budget really went to ads placed in front of a bot farm from Philippines. I know of a failed alcohol startup who, after analysis, saw that 40% of their youtube marketing budget ended up attached to channels playing Peppa Pig.
So sure, adblock away, but don't think that the consumer is the sole loser in the ads race: It's far worse than that.
I have never seen an ad that was more valuable to me than when I go out looking for a product or service to solve a problem or ask a friend for advice. The shotgun affect of push advertising makes even those theoretically "useful" ads negative value, because they have to compete for my brain and attention with all the other ads, meaning they have to be just as optimized for manipulation.
You are inherently freeloading off of everyone that does pay for Premium or watches ads.
I didn't say that doing is is immoral, or that we should collectively feel ashamed, just that it is inherently <not paying> for YouTube, and that YT has every right to try to stop this behavior - of course, balancing kicking people off the platform with any ground they lose to competing UGC streaming services.
> You are inherently freeloading off of everyone that does pay for Premium or watches ads.
You seem to be assuming that watching ads would reduce the number of them, or reduce the price of Premium. All evidence is to the contrary (e.g. the presence of ads on pay-for TV, like cable)
It wouldn't reduce the rate of ads or price of premium, but if everyone ran an ad blocker and didn't pay for Premium, YouTube would either shut down or make the uploaders pay per watch or per GB served, perhaps, leading to a worse experience.
Would that lead to a worse experience? It would certainly cut down on spammy, AI generated content. I already fund many of the creators I watch through Patreon or other means so I suspect it wouldn't change much for me.
Yeah, my 9-year-old grandson could not upload his hillarious videos about dinosaurs anymore. Please explain to him that he can open some Patreon to support his Youtube fees instead.
Advertisers have no morals, they're completely depraved. They'll eagerly exploit a teenager's self-conscious body issues to sell useless beauty products. They sell sugar water to fat people and at every turn promote the rampant consumerist culture that is destroying our planet. They're lower than pond scum and I never want to see a single ad from them ever.