A few months ago I've found this browser-based game which ditches the whole 3D game ui directly and allows you to do all your spreadsheet planning right there.
More details: this game is an economic MMO. If a major player that used to produce a huge chunk of the supply of coffee suddenly decides to quit, then everyone in the market for coffee will notice. Fortunately, almost everyone needs coffee (it makes your production times faster), so ideally someone steps up to fill that supply because they know the demand is there.
Things take hours to do. Fly a ship from Deimos to the commodity exchange at Antares Station? That's going to take 7 hours (like 7 _real_ hours). A smelter facility will take 10 real hours to smelt a batch of aluminum. You want to be a real good planner. Unless you like having to wait another day because you miscalculated the amount of flux needed to run your smelters, causing your aluminum production to run idle for half a day.
Where do you sell your goods? Well there's six commodity exchanges spread across the galaxy which accept one of the four currencies used in the galaxy (and yes there's FX markets). The bid/ask for goods varies so you'll want to decide where it may be optimal to sell (fuel isn't free!). You don't have to ship it yourself though, you can post a contract at your planet for someone else to ship your goods and deliver them within X days for a price.
This game is crazy. I have somehow ended up in a position where I now pay money to pretend to be a supply chain analyst and write my own ERP software. These are the scripts I use to run my company:
`csv.py` - converts exchange and inventory data to csvs
`production_line.py` - performs analysis of current production lines as described in `data/production_lines.json`
`analysis_increment.py` - Based on current production lines, gives a list of next building/recipe to invest sorted by ROI days
`analysis_multi_step.py` - Starting from current production lines, plots out the next several buildings/recipes to invest in based on their ROI days
`analysis_supply.py` - Gives a per-planet supply breakdown including planned productionn lines if included
`analysis_vertical.py` - Given a material ticker, returns an analysis of production lines with varying degrees of vertical integration to produce the given material.
`analysis_arbitrage_trip.py` - Takes origin, destination, capital, profit threshold, mass, and volume. Will give a list of materials to buy at origin at ask prices which then must be sold ASAP at destination bid prices
Also something that might be interesting: the developer has recently started releasing monthly economic reports [0], (for example, see the most recent one for May [1]). These cover:
- money supply (for each currency)
- production of fundamental ores, minerals, gases, liquids
- production of consumables (for your workforce)
- balances of the market makers (MM). For background, for a particular material/commodity, a commodity exchange may have a MM that is basically the buyer/seller of last resort, so the bid or ask offered by the MM will be relatively low (for bid) or relatively high (for ask). I don't know the details well, but I think the devs introduce a MM if there isn't a lot of organic demand/supply for something (more seasoned players probably know this better). Anyway, so if you sell to the MM, the MM balance goes up. If you buy from the MM, their balance goes down. So an increase of the MM balance for say the Antares Initiative (one of the factions which operates a commodity exchange) can be interpreted as a lot of people had to sell to the MM, thus not a lot of player demand for that commodity.
The level of detail and dedication of core users makes this sound like it could become far more than it is already.
The word is tinged, and unfortunately so—but a functional economy that provides operators entertainment like this sounds like the start of a metaverse.
Huh, I had an idea recently to make an API-only game like that. Would let people build their own tools/GUIs and go as crazy as they'd like with building their own AI to control their empire. Just feels extremely niche, even if it scratches my own gameplay itch.
I'm concerned that such a game would be so much more rewarding to me as a developer than my actual software development job is, that I would become miserable at work!
I’ve only dealt with a couple of ERP systems briefly and at the lowest levels, but they both felt like an incredibly inefficient undertaking that is ripe for some disruption.
> but they both felt like an incredibly inefficient undertaking that is ripe for some disruption
That's because no 2 ERP deployments are the same: you either have a rigid, fully bespoke system that's "easy" to develop, but can't be used anywhere else. OR you have a gigantic ERP system that has knobs up the wazoo for customizability, which supports an entire industry of consultants that do installation & configuration (like SAP)
I mean it really does seem like a compelling simulation of a real or imaginary world situation would be the best way to either sell accounting software or at least teach an economics class.
Just want to say that I respect and love the fact that you are doing this. I too get consumed by some stuff in this way and it's always a lot of fun, never time wasted.
Prosperous universe players don't use Excel, they use Google sheets because of significant collaboration between players. The main spreadsheet of a corporation may have hundreds of tabs and runs into the 10 million cell limit all the time. The spreadsheets run Javascript code to import data from a tool called FIO.
A major downside is that these spreadsheets end up taking forever to update. You change one thing and wait five minutes for it to finish updating cells.
Oh my god that reminds me so much on oldschool browser games (before/without flash or JS).
My favourites were Ogame [1] and Galaxywars [2] which were both unplayable after a few months because you were just raided every day without a chance to bounce back and balancing in general was horrible. Still good memories though because the game continued when you were not online. You sent an attack that took 8 hours on way so after 8 Hours you know if you succeeded and after 16 hours had your loot and ships back (or not)
There were three types of kids in Poland in the early 00s, those who had no Internet access, those on dial-up who played Ogame, and those on broadband who played Tibia. Funnily enough, those two games uncannily reflected the reality those kids were born into - both were infamous for constant danger presented by other players and ruthless difficulty where you could lose everything in any given moment.
Botting TribalWars kinda got me into programming 3-4 years ago. Fun times, automating farming gives you time to play politics, but managing a top 3 tribe was kind of a full time job even when you don't have to grind.
Those games hit the exact sweet spot for kids who had access to internet at school or at parents workplace, but not at home. Run to computer lab between lessons, spend your turns for the day and then wait for new turns.
There was an old ANSI console game called Galactic Conquest (which has since been co-opted by an RTS) that we used to play the hell out of in the computer lab.
You always had to calculate transit time and I got a little too good at feinting right and attacking left and I might have taken all of the fun out of it for the other people. They'd reinforce the wrong planet and I'd swarm another border while their ships were in transit.
It seemed pretty niche back then. I was drawn to it because it could be played in a web browser on my highschool's locked down computers and wasn't well-known enough to be blocked. Plus it looked very spreadsheety
If you want a 4x space strategy game with a enterprise business software UI, then I'd recommend Aurora 4X. It's a great way to feel like a galactic bureaucrat.
Interesting. I considered doing something like this after getting frustrated with the typical game engines. I wanted to make a grand strategy game, but utilizing an MDI style UI as I knew I could focus on building out the game itself without having to put too much effort into designing the UI within whatever engine was being used and just embed a graphics library for drawing the actual game visuals.
I had some trouble getting the embedding to work quite right, but I might try an pick the project up again sometime.
I know I’ve seen other games use this UI style before, but I haven’t heard of the one you posted, and can’t recall whatever game is hidden in the back of my mind. Command: Modern Operations comes to mind, but is a bit fancier.
Never seen this, but it looks like originally it was VB6 and he is working on (or has completed) a C# based remake. I recognized the form icon on the youtube video and nostalgia kicked in.
If you like that and 18th century naval history, you'll also like Rule the Waves 3, which also makes no bones about being a spreadsheet sim. Definitely on my wishlist!
It depends on how you are playing the game. Spreadsheets are important everywhere, but for alliances holding territory in nullsec I'd argue leadership skills are the most the important. Its amazing how much you can learn about leadership from that game.
I recall an article from a few years ago about a guy in the Mission in SF and his entire job was being the "accountant" for his guild - and he talked about he never logs into the game, just manages the resources of the guild via excel.
And yes, if you never seen Shkreli do exccel, youll be very impressed.
The fact that this isn't some mod or fan effort either, but a 100% no-malarky release from the actual developer, along with a manual, template, and tutorials; is absolutely amazing.
They even collaborated with the Excel team at Microsoft, including a quote on the announcement page from Excel’s Head of Product and participation from Microsoft in a recent livestream event.
They really are a sight to behold. Eventually they got simpler, then annual. They do them monthly now, but Guðmundsson isn't part of it and they are really nothing more than data dumps with some automated infographs.
More like, EVE is real life espionage and power politics… except what's at stake is just pixels. The important stuff is so real you need spreadsheets to keep tabs on it all, but the consequences are pixels and video game numbers going up or down.
This mostly facilitates nicely what players were already doing with api & data dump integrations. It greatly boosts accessibility though, which is great.
It just is so remarkable to me that no other games dare to have the depth & accessibility that EVE does. No one else has anything remotely as open ended as EVE Online's existing APIs or data dumps. It's shocking to me that games remain so quaintly isolated in their own world, that they don't seek to open up to allow more.
> It just is so remarkable to me that no other games dare to have the depth & accessibility that EVE does.
I think arma3 does (in terms of depth - very different games), it has a full programming language built into - people have done everything from Zombie Survival to Living on a tropical island to recreating the Vietnam war to completely replacing the stock AI with one that feels remarkably human[1].
Do you mean in Path of Exile or in games in general? Afaik most of the economy stuff in PoE is behind an API that's relatively open(you have to request access, but you pretty much always get it).
The complexity in Path of Exile is less in the economy and more in build creation though. With tools like Path of Building that you can spend almost as many hours in as you're playing the actual game(or you just copy what someone else did like most people).
Well, both! But for POE specifically, there's a lot of stuff they don't want to expose (the UI, damage numbers, MTX info, etc.)
I wanted to build a better catalog for their MTX (because their shop site is pretty terrible) and was explicitly denied API access even though they already have a public API for it that their site uses. Shrug.
Path of building is great, but AFAIK the formulas used for it are from observations and not an API.
That's true yes. Most of the Path of Building stuff is datamined and/or tested ingame. Interesting that they declined the shop idea, guess they dislike people touching anything to do with their monetization.
As in they have a bunch of endpoints that are perfectly usable but they don't want you using it for some reason. It spawned a small ecosystem of third party docs and wrappers on poedb and github.
I can't tell if GGG just don't have the resources to support more APIs or if they are worried about increasing access for other business reasons, but they do threaten an account ban for unauthorized use of their public APIs. It's too bad, as someone who's both spent a lot of money with them and wanted to spend more but could never find the right items because their official shop is so bad. Oh well.
As a casual PoE player I hope sooner or later we will get an LLM that can make builds for me. https://poeplanner.com/ is still an absolute mindfuck. But it would be cool to have an LLM that does like "make me an INT/STR build with 2-handed weapon and aoe skills"
That would be great! The build guides are helpful, but limiting in that they are often super strict in what they need to be functional, and end game focused.
Sometimes I just want to have a good time trying out a new build, even if it never makes it past early mapping, but the game just makes that so punishingly difficult.
Having a build advisor (maybe even built into the game somehow?) would be awesome. But I think GGG purposefully tries to keep it obscure and complex, maybe to increase longevity? Heck, it worked for me... got bored of Diablo 4 after a week because it was so basic.
The issue is that you typically need an unaccessible level of depth for new players to avoid the game getting "solved" by the data being open.
WotC has a huge problem with this in Magic the Gathering for instance. They used to publish all the stats about what decks won the daily events on their online platforms but they had to stop because the data helped people micro-optimize the best deck way to quickly after a new set of cards came out.
I guess it's also true that not everyone wants to play a game where an Excel add-in is not available.
Please note, Excel is not a requirement to play EVE Online, it is only useful to have an add-in for some roles.
Further, for most popular games, Excel doesn't even make sense. Parent's request for more games to be more accessible to external tools like Excel is not a request to make Excel access your CoD game state, don't be dense.
Dense? Who's the one who missed the joke, and then doubled down on missing the point?
The parent is excited because the game they like to play is so baroque and complicated, that full participation requires external data processing (yes I know you don't have to use Excel or anything else, but amongst the dozen or so regular EVE Online players I know, including one former EO QA tester, every single one uses Excel to some extent to track their game, so YMMV). The point is not every game needs visibility at the API level, so why should the game developers waste time providing it. My grandma's casino sim games don't need an API; wins and losses are tracked quite easily in the app. If you need an API and an external tool to play Farmville or some such, I think you're missing the point just a touch. Does my city building sim need an API? I guess I can think of a few things that an API could provide. Would I use it? Why, it's just a game.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If the game you like needs an API, everything need an API. Same mentality.
No problem, sport, it's all yours. Just keep your APIs, Excel spreadsheets, game-as-job and the rest of the hardcoreness down in your mom's basement where it belongs.
EVE Online has the nickname "Spreadsheets in Space" for a reason, though. There are many aspects of the game where you don't need a spreadsheet, so you're not forced to play this part of the game. However, if you want to do anything serious within research, production or sales, then spreadsheets quickly become your friends. And API calls and scripting.
I just wanted to add how much farther that the "Spreadsheets" analogy goes with a few examples:
There are actually custom ERP and management resources that have been developed by the eve community like the Alliance Auth project and a large group has even a issued a cryptocurrency to automatically manage in-game payouts for certain types of ship losses.
There are the requisite and copious discord, irc, and xmpp integrations, but there are also automated mapping projects, and large scale data analysis projects.
There are projects which seek to analyze ship losses for intelligence and counter intelligence purposes. There are background checks, escrow services, automatic billing service for eg logistics (trucking services) and in fact there have been several functional _casinos_.
The excel plugin looks to add a lot of additional capability to the spreadsheets, since now you can integrate all of this information into whatever analytics you would like to create with excel, which is of course quite powerful.
The "old UI circa 2010" is like the second refresh, and the game already had the reputation back in 2007 when I started playing. It refers to the big business players, who actually play the game like they're real life companies.
I was guessing at the date, because I started shortly after launch when I was a wee lad. The way I remember it is the joke was because of the way every window had rows and boxes, with data inside. I don't actually recall people using actual excel spreadsheets for much other than enjoying the meme because a lot of the things we use excel for in industry now did not exist yet at the time. (Maybe comparing ship stats before the compare tool got better?)
I'm not so much arguing with you as presenting how I remember it. We could both be right, or one or the other, it's not important... I'm just an old scordite miner getting ready to retire, so out of the generosity in my heart, anybody who sends me some ISK today, I'll go ahead and double it - no strings attached. It's time to get out of the game anyway.
Yea, it became a spreadsheet game if you wanted to make spreadsheets lol. If you go "I want to be a daytrader" or "I want to create an industrial empire" obviously spreadsheets are needed. But they have absolutely nothing to be with the normal day-to-day for most players.
Interesting, I'll file a feature request with our PMs. As far as I know we only have light/dark mode support. If you have an idea of how you'd like themeing to look shoot me an email to bgruenbaum@microsoft.com and I'll get it in front of a PM.
A friend of mine once described World of Warcraft as "spreadsheets in Middle Earth", permanently destroying my ability to play these games. In my mind I thank her for it every day.
I wonder if eventually Eve online will end up as a commercial logistics group and they just start buying ships and eve online makes a commercial version of the game.
an amazing space game managed with care and love from the developers and environment and yet being ruined from within with pay-to-win and loot-crate functions....
How bad is the new freemium model making things, i kind of fizzled out on playing EVE about a decade ago(life happened) and is wondering if the game is worth getting back into?
Not bad at all. CCP is handling the game well, modernizing the client, UI etc. It's in a pretty good state. But it's also not so much different from what it was 10 years ago. Playing extremly casual these days though, maybe once a week I log in and do a site or something. It's just so relaxing, almost zen, worth the subscription for me. Happy this is still going.
They never implemented multiplayer. They only let you walk around your own "Captain's Quarters."
They had the whole stations, bars, clubs, traders, asteroid exploration, assassination... etc. designs, but they couldn't figure out how to get it off the ground in a clean way.
I've bounced off of EVE three times now, and I've come to the conclusion that as much as I want to play the game, it's just not fun. Whoa there! Before you reply, remember that fun is relative to each person, what's fun for you is not necessarily fun for me!
> Whoa there! Before you reply, remember that fun is relative to each person, what's fun for you is not necessarily fun for me!
This whole part could have been replaced by adding "it's just not fun _for me_", and without making it sound like you do think the game is objectively not fun but don't want to defend it.
You need to add "to me" at the end of your sentence here, because you're making it sound like you think their post sounds a certain way objectively, when that's actually subjective and didn't sound that way at all to me.
As a counterpoint, your recommendation could be similarly received as a command because you omitted the qualifiers indicating it was just your opinion.
In my opinion such qualifiers aren't necessary as there's an implicit understanding that others are sharing their opinions, and are generally explicit in the event that they're not.
You'd think that, but in the past when I say I just don't enjoy it, or it's not fun for me, I get a bunch of replies about why I'm wrong and what I missed out on, and what I should do to make it fun.
As I get older and I've played every genre, I think few video games are fun.
Many video games are addicting(stardew valley), many games invoke nostalgia(Nintendo/Zelda), some are slot machines(Diablo 3 and Starcraft Coop), etc...
You wonder how many games are genuinely fun, and how many are marketed well and cause a network effect. Did people really like playing Madden 20xx and Call of Duty X? Or did 1 popular friend get their psychology exploited, and if you wanted to be cool, you'd buy the game to play with them.
>Did people really like playing Madden 20xx and Call of Duty X?
Can't talk about those games but Fortnite is a fine example of insanely popular game yet it's actually really fun too. I was ignoring it for a long time and started playing when the Covid lockdowns started and I was surprised that it's actually a good TPS game + the constant updates what makes it really enjoyable. Live service games live and die by the updates and Epic does the gameplay updates really well: new or unvaulted weapons every 2-3 weeks, new map changes every 3 months etc. So it always feels fresh, just enough change that you don't get bored.
There is also the aspect of instant gratification which makes the genre appealing to a lot and easy to jump in. It doesn't take a lot to understand what's going on and if you fail you just start a new game, akin to rogue/lite/like genre which is coincidentally (or not) became popular since the 2010s too.
I've noticed this as I've gotten older, but I think it's me—not the games. I can point to two reasons:
* I have less time or patience to invest in learning the intricacies of complex games that used to be so rewarding. I've been a big fan of Paradox games over the years, but man, the amount of time needed to really appreciate games like Hearts of Iron or Crusader Kings isn't worth it to me anymore.
* I feel less capable of "suspending reality" in RPGs. When I was a kid, I feel like I could get super immersed in things like the Elder Scrolls games—I probably have more hours in Oblivion than any other game to date. But I don't quite get that same feeling anymore. Adulthood, I guess?
Now, I almost exclusively play relaxing games that don't require too much mental overhead (like Diablo). I'll still pick up indie games that get a lot of traction (enjoyed Hades and Disco Elysium), but rarely touch AAA games.
I've been playing videogames since the days of Pong. I've had a pong console, the ZX Spectrum, the Intel 286,386,486,etc, Xbox, PSP. Still have the Xbox 360, Nintendo DS, GameCube, Wii, Switch and nowadays i play most of my games on my "family gaming computer" which is a MSI Trident 3.
Of course life happened and i don't have much game time. And i got older of course. What i do like are the stories in the games. I like rpgs, but hate the fighting and grinding. I like fpses, but hate their mazes/puzzles (except for the Portal games).
The limited time has made me picky on what game i want to play, so there are very few games that i really complete. I want the most of my invested time. The last one i completed was Star Trek Resurgence. Nice story, nice graphics and the qte's made sure the game progresses without needing much time. It was lots of fun.
I'm still trying to complete Yakuza 5. The stories are nice, but it takes lot of grinding.
There are a lot of different types of fun. For example, there's a lot of satisfaction in accomplishing something, even if you didn't have "fun" doing it (this is why people like to climb mountains or 100% games). Conversely, if you've had a long day at work, playing a game with easy dopamine hits may be what you need to unwind. Some people just want an excuse to hang out with friends, and a non-intense game can be a good way to do that.
Games ultimately fulfill a lot of different needs for people. Not every game needs to be the most engaging thing ever, in the same way that not every movie needs to be The Godfather. And I think it's important to recognize why people play games without being condescending about it.
Can't speak to all games, but I have found that the Mortal Kombat/Tekken style fighting games really aren't that much fun to me anymore. Smashing buttons is fun for like maybe ten minutes, but it gets boring real quick.
On the other hand Street Fighter VI is the perfect example how to reinvent the genre. The new campaign mode is really good and makes the game 100x better than any other previous title. Honestly japanese studios has an insane year in 2023 (Zelda, RE4 Remake, FFXVI, Armored Core VI, Street Fighter VI etc.)
>Honestly japanese studios has an insane year in 2023 (Zelda
Zelda TotK seems to be pretty disappointing from what I read. After BOTW I finally gave up playing every Zelda game.
Nintendo is the best when it comes to video game marketing, they basically brainwashed us since we were toddlers and they have a tight grip over mainstream reviews.
I don't know if TotK is good, but we won't be getting too much honest feedback until the hype dies down. Remember when people said BOTW was the greatest game of all time? That aged poorly.
Anyway, I am quite skeptical of people who put modern Zelda in their 'great' games list. They havent been a powerhouse since N64.
Don't play genres, a genre is inherently about something that sold well enough to spawn lots of clones. Like a lot of software, the need for commercial success compromises many good ideas.
Personally my fondest memories of EVE (as someone with a 2009 character) are when we managed to get the drop on someone and absolutely ruin their day. Someone flying around with a $300 ship who should not be out there in the depths of space. There’s something deeply satisfying about getting hate mail from someone who says they’re going to find you and kill you because you blew up their internet space ship. Perhaps from a different time on the internet, I’d imagine you’d get in trouble for sending such an EVE mail these days.
But for each moment like that there were countless hours where we were just sitting around being bored doing nothing. Or mindlessly grinding. It was fun because it was subversive and one of the few places where you could actually be aggressive in a way that had consequences. And trust me, I lost a lot too. It felt super bad. But that was what made it fun!
I’ve got a family now and no way I can play EVE anymore. But I’ll remember the crazytown I played in.
Personally I only found EVE Online fun when I was making it not fun for other people. Like the time I made friends with some guys, spent a few months playing with them, then robbed them blind and blew up all their spaceships for the insurance fraud while they were sleeping because I got bored. I got so much hate mail it was glorious.
Then I lost all my ill gotten gains playing space poker. But man it was exhilarating. Just like a true space cowboy. The highs and the lows.
A few months later I tried to make more money using my very expensive carrier ship that was worth a few hundred in real life money, and then that got blown up by some other space pirates. Thus completing the circle of rage. I haven’t played much since.
There’s a joke in the game, you’ll say “whatever happened to Frank?” “Oh, he’s winning at EVE”, meaning he quit. The only way to really win is to not play.
I played it from 2017 to 2019, was part of the TAPI alliance. It was fun doing content roaming around Provi/Catch and fighting Goons, my corp at one point decided we should all move to a wormhole and try to live there. It was very good because it was a break from the routine that we had which we pretty much were "F1 monkeys" (always following the order to shoot specific ships from the fleet commander).
My corp was awesome and after I stopped playing (at the start of World War Bee 2), I saw that some of my corpies stopped as well. I had just skilled my main character to fly a capital ship and I wanted to try ratting (sort-of idle PvE content) with it, but lots of things happened and I kinda didn't have time nor money to spend on the game. I only managed to pay for the subscription with ingame money once. I tried to get into industry as I found it interesting, and wanted to build some tools to help fellow industry mates at the alliance, but never got to build them.
Planetary interaction also looked nice, as you had to plan out a setup and you needed different planets to produce the components that would result in higher profits.
It was fun playing, but now I remember one of the reasons I lost interest in it was that it got bought by Pearl Abyss and suddenly a few months later they announced lootboxes inside the game and kinda made it more P2W than what it already was.
(I'm not saying this applies to you at all, but you made me think of it)
One thing EVE taught me is that some games provide more enjoyment the more you put into it. For me, I had to play 'hardcore' in EVE to really start to have fun - casual just didn't work and was never enjoyable.
At this point in my life I just don't want to invest the time and energy to enjoy EVE. I like hopping into a game and having fun immediately, versus having to work to have fun.
Actually, the third time I went back to it, I had that same opinion, and you know, I did have some fun with it at first, but I think it was more the novelty of that type of gameplay than that I actually enjoyed doing it. About six months in I realized it was just a second job that I was paying to do, and decided not to play again.
In the end, I realized that my favorite part of EVE was just looking at the ships, but I can do that without playing.
This echos my thoughts precisely. I clocked up a lot of hours 2004 to 2009, and more casual for a couple of years after. I feel you have to really commit to this game to get the real fun out of it. And sadly i don't have entire nights free to dedicate to games any more...so I'm done with it. I still miss it, even now...but i know that ship has sailed.
I've had the same experience. Played multiple times, once for almost a year. The only thing that kept me playing that long was the good group of people on voice comms. I quit for the last time when I realized that life is too short to waste on a game I wasn't even enjoying (and that, frankly, stressed me out.)
I played eve for several years. I quit after the introduction of PLEX created developer-endorsed real money transactions. Not only because it was too tempting to simply spend money instead of playing to recoup my losses, not only because it meant rich people had a huge advantage over poor people, but because it made it possible to assign a dollar value to everything I did in the game. It's one thing to grind an RPG three hours so you can get ten thousand gold and buy a bracelet of fire resistance. It's an entirely separate thing to spend three hours doing something tedious and know for a fact your three hours of work was worth two dollars and eighty cents.
To this day I don't know if CCP killing my enjoyment of the game was a good or bad thing.
Remember that fun is relative. I've had great times in EVE. Probably the most impactful video game I've played because of the community and social aspects.
https://prosperousuniverse.com/