If any Etsy employees are reading, I am curious about why it took nearly 7 years to add direct checkout to the site -- Paypal is not known for being particularly kind to either buyers OR sellers, though perhaps there were all sorts of scaling/technical issues that took priority over something like this? It just seems like, with the amount of volume that Etsy does, Paypal's rates would be on the very high side.
Once you are in the business of accepting payments from some people and dispensing them to others, you are playing an entirely different game from a regulatory standpoint.
How so? You're simply now a "Third Party Payment Aggregator". We do this with one of our products and we're a small operation.
In my experience, the hard parts are getting initial approval from a merchant/bank and dealing with fraud. But I don't know of actual government regulations.
Based on the tax forms I've had to fill out whenever I've joined an app market or affiliate network, there is definitely government regulations with tax filing.
My assumption is that since you're collecting money that is 3rd party's profit, you need to show the paper trail that you're holding this money in escrow for a 3rd party.
This is why ebay transactions are buyer<->seller and then you're billed at the end of the month. Lightens the admin burden.
> Based on the tax forms I've had to fill out whenever I've joined an app market or affiliate network
You mean the form W9 they have you fill out to provide your taxpayer identification number? That's so they can send you a 1099-MISC if needed. Any business that pays a non-employee individual over $600 in a year for any service (with a few exceptions) files a 1099-MISC, it has nothing to do with payment aggregation.
.. Right. And if your business is based on aggregating and paying out non-employee individuals then you will be filling out a lot of those documents, which becomes a significant added admin overhead...
Seems like it might be a pretty complicated thing to add... No other marketplaces that I know of have their own processing capabilities... Third party aggregation (taking payments on behalf of someone else) has many quite-complicated regulatory issues.
In addition to the regulatory issues, you're asking to get a bunch of customer support complaints over $25 transactions where your maximum upside is measured in pennies. And many of those complaints are going to sound like:
Buyer: "The seller never shipped the itemz!"
Seller: "I did, too! With no tracking number, because I'm new at this, like most of your users!"
Buyer: "I fell off the Internet for two weeks because I didn't pay my phone bill but I'm back now and hopping mad because the booties that just got delivered have WOOL instead of COTTON in them!"
Seller: "It says right in the description NATURAL FIBERS!"
Buyer: "There is nothing natural about FACTORY FARMS!"
Accountant: "Total cost to read this email thread so far: $14 and counting. Value of this transaction to us: $0.57."
"Pricing like it should be! 2.9%..." I stopped right there.
It does not cost more to process larger numbers. There is no rational justification whatsoever for any money-handling service to charge a percentage. Period.
No amount of 'but the other guys are bigger assholes than me!' will cover up the fact that the banking environment right now is set up to make it as difficult as possible for anyone but extremely large businesses to do a large volume of transactions without making it outright illegal.
I want to see a payment processor that charges a low, flat rate for processing transactions, with their charges based upon the actual cost incurred by their processing plus a bit of profit. They are providing a useful service, I'm not against making money. But taking a percentage when the size of the transaction does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to your costs of processing is like taking your dick out in public and asking children to pet it.
Given that they're accepting credit cards, Etsy's "cost of processing" does actually increase as the size of the transaction increases (the merchant account will usually have a 2-3% transaction cost associated with it).
Likely, the alternative one-size-fits-all transaction fee would end up making the low end of transactions ridiculous; a $1 painted popsicle stick with a $3 payment cost. Doing it by percentage more accurately reflects the model that Etsy has to pay.
Yes, I was not speaking in terms of Etsy, but in terms of Stripe. For Etsy, yes, their cost does definitely increase as transaction cost gets larger, but only because the payment processor they are forced to use (there are no other options) charges a percentage of each transaction. It is on the payment processors side where there is no justification for taking a larger chunk simply because a number is larger.
One of the advantages of digital systems is that per-transaction costs bottom out very quickly. Even if you are doing something complex (which payment processing is not), the actual cost is usually so small as to be very difficult to measure. I work in an environment which, by law, HAS to measure their per-transaction costs in minute detail. They quantify through statistical analysis the mean amount of CPU time, the mean amount of human-intervention time necessary, the amortized cost of support contracts affecting the software and hardware, power usage by the equipment, EVERYTHING. And they are doing something which is many orders of magnitude more complex than payment processing. And the result is that per-transaction the cost is almost negligible. The same service would have cost hundreds or thousands of dollars and taken weeks 20 years ago. Today, there's a guaranteed response time of under 30 seconds for most transactions and they cost less than $10 (with almost all of that price made up of the small fraction of transactions which do require human intervention). These exact same cost-reduction effects of hardware and software growth have affected banking heavily. But none of those advances have resulted in lowered fees, in fact processing costs and transaction fees have only gone up.
I think that it is great that Etsy is moving to accept credit cards directly. Personally I believe the future of our economy (and this might be a 50-year or longer dream mind you) will be moving away from centralized organizations entirely. The benefits companies offered (aggregation of workers geographically, management of distribution chains, aggregation of work itself geographically) no longer exist. The purpose they served can be filled by modern communication technologies and software. For that to even have a chance of happening, however, requires a couple things. Internet access needs to be defined as a public utility or some other steps taken to severely restrict the ability of ISPs to charge higher rates to users which make money via their Internet connection, and payment processing has to evolve to the point where an individual person can accept payment from anywhere for as close to zero cost as possible. If either of those things do not happen, the companies providing the infrastructure service will choke to death any individuals trying to make their living via the Internet. Over the past 30-40 years, thanks to computers and automation technologies, the productivity of a single person has absolutely exploded. The profit most companies make on a per-employee basis is astronomical compared to rates at any other point in history. When that is widely realized, and people recognize that instead of making $35k/yr for an employer they can make $350k/yr as an independent worker (a conservative estimate, it is very difficult to overestimate just how much money is wasted oiling the supremely inefficient machine that is the modern corporation) while working far reduced hours, the need for that infrastructure will be strong.
Yes, I was not speaking in terms of Etsy, but in terms of Stripe. For Etsy, yes, their cost does definitely increase as transaction cost gets larger, but only because the payment processor they are forced to use (there are no other options) charges a percentage of each transaction. It is on the payment processors side where there is no justification for taking a larger chunk simply because a number is larger.
Risk management. Those money they are "processing" are not theirs --but the risk is, and the bigger the amount, the bigger the risk.
I, for one, would never preside over a big monetary deal between two parties with the associated risk of getting sued/asked for the money, for some small fixed amount. Would you?
I would think that a significant part of money-handling costs (in the general case) is mitigating risk of loss of money through fraud, theft, and similar means. That risk would have to be very small to be ignorable at scale. If you process ten transactions of a thousand dollars each and have to refund one of them out-of-pocket because it was invalid and the thief moved the money out of reach, that's a lot different from processing ten transactions of one dollar each with the same per-transaction risk. It makes sense that this would lead to amortized risk-level × transaction-amount costs.
It does not cost more to process larger numbers. There is no rational justification whatsoever for any money-handling service to charge a percentage. Period.
Oh, but it does.
For one, you have to manage the risk of fraud, cancellations, charge-backs, etc, and you cannot have an insurance proportional to the risk if you use a fixed fee.
Also there are arbitrary state accounting and taxing regulations when you go over a certain amount (we have those a lot in Europe --yeah, I know Stripe is US only, but the point holds, dunno if there are similar things in the US).
I asked them about this - they don't handle marketplace businesses (Taking money on behalf of another customer), for the same regulatory issues previously stated. PoundPay (also YC) is trying to solve this issue but I haven't heard a peep out of them... Also it is quite annoying because I paid for a zaarly and it showed poundpay on my statement, I had no idea what it was.
PoundPay is super interesting, because from what I can see, only Amazon has a solution that essentially handles escrow transactions (which is what KickStarter uses). You're right however, I haven't heard much from them lately (as opposed to Stripe, who seems to be killing it). There was also a limitation with PoundPay of being US only, which is not an option for many companies.
Stripe's model depends on marketing and press, PoundPay has gotten really good word of mouth by the companies that currently use it (for our startup we've looked at our own processing, paypal, amazon, and just about all the options)
Etsy could have implemented Stripe and not be the middleman while still offering a "direct pay-like" experience. Of course, each Etsy seller would need to sign up for Stripe. But I would think Stripe would be very keen on that.
Congrats - looking forward to trying it out!