Have you been in a band? You wouldn't be annoyed at Yoko, you'd be annoyed at John for bringing her into practice like that and insisting that she belongs...
Well John brought her in and insisted that she be there because she was part of him and he couldn't do it without her there, so I don't know why you'd be annoyed at her tbh. John was being incredibly obnoxious and obviously trying to get his bandmates riled up about it.
> Well John brought her in and insisted that she be there because she was part of him and he couldn't do it without her there, so I don't know why you'd be annoyed at her tbh.
This is basically saying that she has no agency over her own actions, when clearly that is not the case.
I'm not sure how you got to that, I don't think so at all. In fact, I'm positive, any reasonable reading of what I said leaves highways of space between a lack of agency and what she did.
You're absolving her of all blame because John wanted to be there. As if her own personal responsibility for whether or not she should be in the studio with The Beatles starts and ends with what John says, not with her own ability to read the room, to understand that she's not welcome. That is, by reasonable standards, implying that she lacks personal agency. That she cannot make the decision for herself and thus is not responsible or deserving of the ire she earned while at the studio. Except she is her own self, she was serving her own purpose by being there, even if it was at least in part in reverence of John's desires.
We know for a fact that at least one Beatle was annoyed because Paul has plainly said her presence was unwelcome. I'm certain he was also quite annoyed with John, but he was independently annoyed by her being there. In fact I think most people would get quickly annoyed with Yoko being around them. Her "performances" are obnoxious and narcissistic.
Seems like you are projecting a bit. I'm not sure she'd agree that she also doesn't belong. So, the fact that you do doesn't really mean she should take personal blame for it. That's pretty ridiculous if you think about it.
> As if her own personal responsibility for whether or not she should be in the studio with The Beatles starts and ends with what John says, not with her own ability to read the room, to understand that she's not welcome.
Her partner asked her to be there for him... No one else expressed anything otherwise, because they knew how John would react.
> Except she is her own self, she was serving her own purpose by being there, even if it was at least in part in reverence of John's desires.
Yeah, she was serving the purpose of helping out her partner and lover and mate.
>We know for a fact that at least one Beatle was annoyed because Paul has plainly said her presence was unwelcome. I'm certain he was also quite annoyed with John, but he was independently annoyed by her being there. In fact I think most people would get quickly annoyed with Yoko being around them. Her "performances" are obnoxious and narcissistic.
Big coming from you with this kind of posting. Yawn.
> Seems like you are projecting a bit. I'm not sure she'd agree that she also doesn't belong. So, the fact that you do doesn't really mean she should take personal blame for it. That's pretty ridiculous if you think about it.
On the contrary, I'm quite convinced she did think she belonged, which is the problem. She was incapable of understanding the situation, John didn't care, and the other Beatles refused to confront John or Yoko about it despite it being quite clearly obtrusive.
> Her partner asked her to be there for him... No one else expressed anything otherwise, because they knew how John would react.
I'm not denying that it's a failure on multiple people's parts, but you're just pretending like Yoko doesn't share any of that responsibility herself.
> Big coming from you with this kind of posting. Yawn.
As opposed to your kind of posting that's infantilizing grown women on top of your inability to empathize. Yawn indeed.
Not sure how you could say John didn't care when he clearly did.
>I'm not denying that it's a failure on multiple people's parts, but you're just pretending like Yoko doesn't share any of that responsibility herself.
Because I wouldn't blame my bandmate's gf for showing up when he asked her to... They have to sleep together every night, it's understandable she's trying to do the right thing by him, even if it's not what I want. Further to that point, if she did show up, I wouldn't be angry at her, because my issue would be with my bandmate. You seem incredibly emotionally undeveloped tbh.
>As opposed to your kind of posting that's infantilizing grown women on top of your inability to empathize. Yawn indeed.
There's something wrong with you that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm infantilizing her. A much more reasonable explanation is that I don't think she did anything wrong by doing what John asked her to do. You really got something going on and I don't want to be a part of it. Yoko haters are always like this.
> Not sure how you could say John didn't care when he clearly did.
John didn't care what other people thought about her being there because he was as self absorbed as she is.
> Because I wouldn't blame my bandmate's gf for showing up when he asked her to...
I wouldn't blame her for showing up, but I would blame her for continuing to sit in the room when it's quite clear that she wasn't welcome. Somehow the girlfriends of the other band members were able to figure this out. Either Yoko is dense or she just didn't care. the NY Times article paints it as if she knew exactly what she was doing and that it was somehow some sort of heroic effort.
It’s totally the opposite. John absolutely did care what the others thought, that’s exactly why he brought her there. He knew it would bother them, and that’s exactly what he intended and cared to do. He wasn’t unconcerned whether they would feel one way or another. He was entirely aware he was pushing boundaries, and he was doing it to see where he stood with the other band members, and how bad they wanted/needed him. Once again, I think your perspective reflects a lack of emotional development w/r/t how you imagine Yoko and John i.e. that they are simply just self-obsessed and oblivious to anything besides their own desires. It’s clearly the opposite, John knew exactly what he was doing, and why he was doing it and the risks it brought.
Your other point also reflects emotional immaturity. If my bandmate brought his gf to practice, I wouldn’t sit there and seethe at her (and it’s funny you describe it this way when the obvious takeaway from get back is how much her being there was a non-issue despite the visual and conceptual absurdity of her sitting there reading a book about the Beatles), I would bring it up with my bandmate. Like I pointed out before, and in Yoko’s case, she’s trying to do the right thing by her life partner, her lover, her husband, future father of her children, someone she was deeply into a heroin addiction with, which to her, supersedes anything she would owe to Paul or any other Beatle. It's pretty absurd for you to have suggested I was the one taking away her agency or infantilizing her, while you reject basic human emotions. You act like John passively asked her "Hey, wanna come to band practice?" wherein what he actually did was tell her that he needed her there in order to actually do it in the first place. This is all post-white album.
That’s why you seem especially emotionally immature, if not outright just selfish. You (a) project it onto Yoko and John in order to eschew any other reasonable explanation, and (b) think that your bandmate’s partner owes you more than she owes your bandmate and that to do otherwise would just reflect not caring or being “dense”. I’d like to think you’d be a better partner to a potential better half of yours, but hey, clearly you don’t care! I hope they don’t either!
> It’s totally the opposite. John absolutely did care what the others thought, that’s exactly why he brought her there. He knew it would bother them, and that’s exactly what he intended and cared to do. He wasn’t unconcerned whether they would feel one way or another. He was entirely aware he was pushing boundaries, and he was doing it to see where he stood with the other band members, and how bad they wanted/needed him. Once again, I think your perspective reflects a lack of emotional development w/r/t how you imagine Yoko and John i.e. that they are simply just self-obsessed and oblivious to anything besides their own desires. It’s clearly the opposite, John knew exactly what he was doing, and why he was doing it and the risks it brought.
I find it remarkable that you wrote all this out and didn't once think that this is remarkably selfish, self serving, and narcissistic. Most people would condemn this type of behavior, but you're trying to elevate it into something greater than what it is. Stop proselytizing.
> think that your bandmate’s partner owes you more than she owes your bandmate and that to do otherwise would just reflect not caring or being “dense”. I’d like to think you’d be a better partner to a potential better half of yours, but hey, clearly you don’t care! I hope they don’t either!
I think that there's a time and place for things. If you're in a space to write music with your band then you defer to what is good for the band. If I'm visiting their home, that's a completely different story and I defer to what they want, because that's their space.
Yoko has done this a lot throughout her career. She's injected herself in places that she clearly wasn't welcome and made it about her. Perhaps she is making an artistic statement but it hardly matters, because in doing so she's disrupting everyone else who in some cases often are trying to make their own art.
>I find it remarkable that you wrote all this out and didn't once think that this is remarkably selfish, self serving, and narcissistic. Most people would condemn this type of behavior, but you're trying to elevate it into something greater than what it is. Stop proselytizing.
I don't think so at all, because it's not in service of the self, it's service of their partner. Maybe you are projecting.
>I think that there's a time and place for things. If you're in a space to write music with your band then you defer to what is good for the band. If I'm visiting their home, that's a completely different story and I defer to what they want, because that's their space.
But a band member invited her in. You keep inserting your own version of a hypothetical that totally runs against what actually happened.
>Yoko has done this a lot throughout her career. She's injected herself in places that she clearly wasn't welcome and made it about her. Perhaps she is making an artistic statement but it hardly matters, because in doing so she's disrupting everyone else who in some cases often are trying to make their own art.
She didn't inject herself. John literally told her he needed her there, I'm not sure what is so difficult for you to understand about this. Seems like you don't even understand the concept of an invitation, which makes total sense to me given your behavior here.
> I don't think so at all, because it's not in service of the self, it's service of their partner. Maybe you are projecting.
It's almost as if people are capable of doing things under one pretense while their aim is another. The NY Times' article's author certainly seems to think that Yoko had ulterior motives, not that it matters, since the discussion stems from you being unable to understand why people would be annoyed with Yoko, despite the fact that they were.
> But a band member invited her in. You keep inserting your own version of a hypothetical that totally runs against what actually happened.
I'm not really inserting any hypothetical. She was in the studio. She annoyed the other Beatles, as confirmed by one of the other Beatles.
> She didn't inject herself. John literally told her he needed her there, I'm not sure what is so difficult for you to understand about this. Seems like you don't even understand the concept of an invitation, which makes total sense to me given your behavior here.
She injected herself in things outside of John and the Beatles. I'm sure you know this because you seem to be a fan of hers... but also because of this, you probably think she wasn't.
You seem to be incredulous that anyone could be annoyed with her, which is your own personal failing. The reality is people were, regardless of whether or not it was justified in your head.
You completely misrepresent things. I totally understand why someone would be annoyed by Yoko’s presence, that doesn’t justify them making it an issue with her. I'm annoyed that my boss had someone share an office with me, but I blame my boss not that individual. Are you 5 years old or something? I already explained this to you when I said if my bandmate’s gf showed up, I would not sit there seething at her, nor would I blame her. Are you saying there is something wrong with that response? It seems like a perfectly reasonable response. Yet you are insisting I should be seething and angry at her, while also insisting you are emotionally well balanced to make these kind of judgments? Clearly you aren’t. You are angry, resentful, and spiteful. Clearly.
The hypothetical you insert isn’t whether someone else was annoyed or not, but the pretext of why she was there in the first place. It’s one thing if you want to disagree. But if you are going to continuously have this discussion with me in such a dishonest fashion, I’m not going to engage. She wasn't there because she, on her own decided to be there. She was there because John asked her. You refuse to acknowledge this and repeatedly try and contextualize it as a decision she made against anyone else, while ignoring the most obvious primary motivation, and one that would take place over everything else you suggest. It's just baffling that you can be this emotionally stunted to be like "why didn't she just instead ignore her lover, husband, future father of her children, in order to appease people that did not otherwise express anything to her?" Do you really make decisions like that in real life?
So now you are talking about things besides get back? And an article from the times? I don’t know what article you are talking about, it’s not the subject of this thread. And who cares what the article stated about her motivation? There is so much media about this, plenty of it contradicts you. Also, so does common sense. What did she achieve by inserting herself in there? No one even really knew or cared (save for some extreme fans) until the get back release came out last year... get a grip.
And once again you completely misrepresent everything I said, I’m not at all surprised someone is annoyed by her. How could I be? The world is full of people that, quite willingly and openly, express their disdain and annoyance with Yoko. How could it be a surprise to me?? You’ve really got to be kidding me with these kinds of arguments.
At least have some self respect and bow out or just agree to disagree, rather than flat-out lying about what we’ve debated in order to get a slam-dunk last word.
>”The reality is people were, regardless of whether or not it was justified in your head.”
The reality is that I’ve only ever argued whether or not it was justified, not whether or not someone was annoyed. Whether or not they were annoyed isn’t really up for a debate, now is it? If you are going to respond again, at least do it in good faith.
> So now you are talking about things besides get back?
> And an article from the times? I don’t know what article you are talking about, it’s not the subject of this thread.
It's linked directly above my first comment on this thread and was in part what I was responding to. It's not unreasonable to expect you to have read the parent comment to a comment you're responding to, even if you didn't read the article. That's on you for responding without the proper context, though.
> The hypothetical you insert isn’t whether someone else was annoyed or not, but the pretext of why she was there in the first place. It’s one thing if you want to disagree. But if you are going to continuously have this discussion with me in such a dishonest fashion, I’m not going to engage. She wasn't there because she, on her own decided to be there. She was there because John asked her. You refuse to acknowledge this and repeatedly try and contextualize it as a decision she made against anyone else,
You might make a decision based on certain factors to participate in something. In this case, John Lennon asks Yoko Ono to come to the studio with him. She lacks context to make a decision off of anything else but what John says, so she agrees to go. I'm not saying that's wrong or that she is at fault for that. I am saying that it's a conscious decision on her part to remain there, of which she can be held responsible for her part in that.
> And once again you completely misrepresent everything I said, I’m not at all surprised someone is annoyed by her. How could I be? The world is full of people that, quite willingly and openly, express their disdain and annoyance with Yoko. How could it be a surprise to me?? You’ve really got to be kidding me with these kinds of arguments.
Yeah, this is what you said, in case you forgot:
> Have you been in a band? You wouldn't be annoyed at Yoko, you'd be annoyed at John for bringing her into practice like that and insisting that she belongs...
> I would not sit there seething at her, nor would I blame her. Are you saying there is something wrong with that response?
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that response. That's your prerogative.
> Yet you are insisting I should be seething and angry at her
I never said anyone should be seething or angry at her. Those are your words. I specifically said I would be annoyed with both John and Yoko, for different reasons.
> while also insisting you are emotionally well balanced to make these kind of judgments?
I never insisted that I was emotionally well balanced; you're once again putting words into my mouth. I almost don't even have to be here for this conversation because you seem to have made up a person, that isn't me, in your head to have an argument with.
> Clearly you aren’t. You are angry, resentful, and spiteful. Clearly.
I'm impressed how much you can extrapolate from the words you put in other people's mouths... maybe work on your reading comprehension and emotional regulation before engaging with people online. It doesn't seem like you're mentally prepared for it.
