> 12-step literature repeatedly, to exhaustion, emphasizes that the spiritual nature of the program is as the person understands it.
That has no place in the treatment of psychological issues such as addiction. It'd be like trying to pray your way out of schizophrenia or use meditation to get rid of a tumor. Or like asking a pastor to cure your ...
Actually, Americans do that a lot. I saw a senator asking parents to pray that no more school shooting happen (there have been 19 in 2023 alone in America[1]).
Keep praying, but a better strategy might be actual addiction treatment and stopping people carrying guns. Anything else is just enabling suffering. Other governments have worked this out. It isn't a mystery anymore. It doesn't require prayer or spirituality or faith.
> Those places, let's not forget, deliver care often with a motive of indoctrination in to religion. It really is taking advantage of people who are vulnerable.
Because I think i've provided more to backup my claim than your "nuh-huh!" replies. You changed target from _my_ claim they are used for indoctrination to their validity in science.
Both refutations are dubious at best, it seems you have taken a position and are sticking to it, out of dogma. A bit like those who blindly follow religion.
Like those people, I don't debate with them. It is pointless. Have a good day.
I haven’t shifted my target since my first comment, and you have failed to argue against it. You have instead raised “America has problems” straw men and posited that 12-step philosophy is wrong.
Pointing out your false statement that there’s no science behind 12-step programs was in direct defense of my original comment/argument’s claim about them being recommended/supported by the medical community. My previous source only denotes 12-step programs as “at least as good” instead of “superior”, but labeling a literature review as “dubious at best” implies science denial that would make this a worthless discussion.
My “nuh-huh” reply regarding your use of the word indoctrination was in fact citing the AA preamble read every meeting: “AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution … neither endorses nor opposes any causes”.
AA is technically a religion (in the US at least). In the positive sense, indoctrination is a correct word to use regarding what goes on in meetings. The common negative sense in which you’re aggressively using the word, implying hidden agendas/motives, is entirely false. Saying 12-step programs act directly opposite to the stated preamble would be a conspiracy theory also making this discussion worthless.
That has no place in the treatment of psychological issues such as addiction. It'd be like trying to pray your way out of schizophrenia or use meditation to get rid of a tumor. Or like asking a pastor to cure your ...
Actually, Americans do that a lot. I saw a senator asking parents to pray that no more school shooting happen (there have been 19 in 2023 alone in America[1]).
Keep praying, but a better strategy might be actual addiction treatment and stopping people carrying guns. Anything else is just enabling suffering. Other governments have worked this out. It isn't a mystery anymore. It doesn't require prayer or spirituality or faith.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th...