Well, I'm not saying I'm unattractive, just that I won't stand out in a crowd. I'm the average guy. I'm healthy, not overweight, I shave regularly and wear Tommy Hilfiger instead of Target (although they might sell TH at Target, haha).
Here's how I know it: it's the amount of effort I have to put in getting a mate. I said I learned how to do it with a lot of trial and error, but that's not the case for a few of my friends. Women come to them with minimal effort (I've witnessed it many times). Not the case with me, I have to initiate it and conquer every inch of territory, so to speak.
I also had a hard time on dating websites when I used to do that. Few responses, almost zero girls reaching out organically, but a high success rate when getting a response (however that is to be expected, I suppose).
For a math analogy, I don't get the A because I'm a genius and finished the test in 10 minutes without studying. I'm the guy who studies a lot to get the A, so not a "natural", just someone with enough potential alongside learning to write the right things down.
This is where I think you're undervaluing what's going on with what I said.
Often getting a response is all you ever need. The same is true when going out to a bar or whatever. If a woman finds you physically attractive - you really just need to not shoot yourself in the foot when interacting and it's mostly smooth sailing.
What I'm trying to say to you is: you might think you're not attractive because you're not a celebrity ("I don't stand out") but you're probably quite physically attractive to a certain amount of women. You discredit that because you don't succeed with every woman and you don't think you have incredibly high status or whatever.
You're also in your 40s now but I'm talking about when you were single and younger and how you're using your life experience then as justification as to why men aren't doing well. How you look now is not a reflection of how you looked then.
I suppose that there is no objective way to measure that, and we won't arrive at a conclusion by just talking about it. Maybe I could go use one of those sites where you post a picture and people rate you?
You are right that I'm physically attractive to a number of women. I just don't think this number is very big, haha... at least compared to most of my friends, but maybe my friends are way more attractive than average for some odd reason? A bunch of CS/Engineer geeks...
I just don't understand why you are - it seems - almost dismissing the possibility of this being a skill, something you learn. Why wouldn't it be? My life story gives me a lot of evidence that this is the case, it would be tedious to write about it in detail, maybe one day I'll write a book!
One thing that is easy to talk about is how my partners would often say that I'm "confident", "funny" and "charming" rather than "good looking". Not even my wife calls me good looking :)
Because calling someone good looking is considered shallow and we deem shallowness a bad trait to exhibit. No one is going to say - “well the only reason I really got interested in my partner was because they were good looking”. They’ll try to posthoc justify it by saying your personality or whatever was good - even though your looks is what opened the door.
I’m not denying the skills. I literally talked about the doofus with good looks. He could improve his personality and skills and then he’d be a gigachad… I am saying that improving your skills is hardly sufficient for today’s market. We live in a different time and it’s wildly superficial.
Looks will always help - and I'm also literally saying that with my argument by stating that I had a harder time than my buddies because of average looks. I'm also saying that you can very significantly tilt the odds on your favor by "acting right", because that's what I experienced.
Sure, being "charming" probably won't help too much in getting people to reach out to you on Tinder, but it will help you once you get a few hits, and it will also help you in parties, night clubs, work environment etc. We are in a different time, but people still meet in person. If you meet absolutely no single women ever in your day to day, I can see this is a problem but even that can be improved with local sports events, church, Meetups etc. Opportunities are EVERYWHERE.
I went out on a date with a girl who called my phone accidentally - she mistyped the number she wanted to call. I had never met her before, we were absolute strangers until I answered her saying "Sorry, I dialed the wrong number" with "Nope, I don't accept your apology, you are not getting out of it that easily, not with that sweet voice you aren't". She gave me her number, a few phone calls later, we went out. You can do it too, man :).
You need to learn... this is the most important part. This is where men struggle. Men aren't struggling because they have a bunch of hits and need to just follow up. That is hardly the issue these days. Men have endless advice about how to act, respond, message, flirt, etc. There's endless services out there for that these days. The issue is that most men can't get a single match. Go look up the stats on this - most men never even get matches on dating services. Point blank. The same is true for going out to bars, clubs, etc. Almost all the men I know who have slept with dozens of women in the recent years say the same thing: Bars, clubs, etc. are absolute garbage for meeting women because it requires immense physical attraction for the women to want to spend any amount of time with you. The same is true of dating apps. And, guess what, most men aren't that physically attractive and never will be. This is where things like "warm approach" and building absolfuckingutely huge social networks is what most men are spending their time doing these days. (That and going to the gym, dermatologists, and cosmetic surgeons obsessively)
I think this might be more reflective of the time and place you grew up. It's certainly not the same now. I can't imagine any of my friends who are women going on a date with a random guy they haven't seen even a photo of yet. I mean - that's also a very old timey story, tbh. These days you put in the wrong phone number and you don't know where that call is going as cellphones put you anywhere in the world.
> I can see this is a problem but even that can be improved with local sports events, church, Meetups etc. Opportunities are EVERYWHERE.
Ooph. My man, you have been out of the game for a long time. Sports events with single women? lol - what are you on? Meetups!? Have you ever been to one in the last five years? It's a complete sausage fest for any activity. Church is mostly full of old and married people.
I'm sorry man, you're just living in the days of old. It's very boomer-esque. Looks are paramount for most men to have any success like you had today. You might not feel great looking but you were probably above avergage but more importantly - you lived in a time where your looks weren't as important.
LOL, what can I say? I've been to most of the activities I mention recently. Meetups where most attendants are women (went to one last month), sports with groups of women in the crowd in the past 6 months... Even a cruise with my wife - full of old people AND women in their 20s... I have friends who married recently after meeting in Church. Night club in Vegas, went 3 years ago, PACKED with women...
I won't be offended by your "Boomer-esque" comment as I'm Gen X, but let me just say, Millenial son, one can go through life telling themselves that others have/had it better, only if life was fair to them...
Consider the ratios. “Groups of women” doesn’t mean anything if there are “hordes of men”. Come to nyc or sf or any major city. It’s overwhelming how many single men show up to any event. Often more men but especially more single men than single women. I also think a cruise is almost the worst place to try to meet a partner. People fly in from all over for cruises…
What kind of meetup? I haven’t seen any with any good amount of women.
Well, I'm not saying I'm unattractive, just that I won't stand out in a crowd. I'm the average guy. I'm healthy, not overweight, I shave regularly and wear Tommy Hilfiger instead of Target (although they might sell TH at Target, haha).
Here's how I know it: it's the amount of effort I have to put in getting a mate. I said I learned how to do it with a lot of trial and error, but that's not the case for a few of my friends. Women come to them with minimal effort (I've witnessed it many times). Not the case with me, I have to initiate it and conquer every inch of territory, so to speak.
I also had a hard time on dating websites when I used to do that. Few responses, almost zero girls reaching out organically, but a high success rate when getting a response (however that is to be expected, I suppose).
For a math analogy, I don't get the A because I'm a genius and finished the test in 10 minutes without studying. I'm the guy who studies a lot to get the A, so not a "natural", just someone with enough potential alongside learning to write the right things down.