FWIW, I don't even really feel like the "legal definition" is relevant: a lot of people on Hacker News seem to think the only thing that matters is the law, and then attempt to move every conversation into whether the law says one thing or the other, and yet fraud is a concept that no one has ever questioned exists even when the law isn't in question or involved. The definition from Oxford Languages (the one Google pulls from) has an "or criminal", but that's clearly elidable, so "wrongful deception intended to result in financial or personal gain" is what we are left with, and the question is then just whether or not it is "wrongful"... and frankly, you're going to end up there also, because I'm pretty sure the person you are arguing with is going to say "this isn't lying". I guess what I mean to say is: you are actually trying to have an ethical argument, but are being drawn into a silly semantic argument over the definition and source of a word you used not really because the definition matters but because it has a bad connotation and since they disagree that this is unethical behavior they want a happy word there, when the real problem is the ethical disagreement.
Sure, but I generally think when you get into the semantic discussion, it’s useful to put my operating definition on the table, so that we can quickly get to either the semantic disagreement or the ethical disagreement (that I think knowing saying untrue things is lying, while others may think knowing saying untrue things isn’t lying)
That is the normal definition of fraud. It seems the difference is you think hidden fees are lying, whereas most people don’t think so as long as they are presented before final purchase agreement.
Yes, I think saying something is $199/night when the minimum you can pay for it is $250/night is lying.
Can you think of another word for that? It’s an untrue statement about the price, that they know is untrue. I just can’t think of another word to describe that other than “a lie”.
If the hidden fees were optional, I could see it being a closer call. If I can uncheck the cleaning fee and actually get $199/night, then it’s not as much a lie. This is the budget airline model. A super super cheap flight, but if you want to put a bag in the overhead bin that’s an extra cost. I think there’s something somewhat deceptive about that practice, but I wouldn’t call it a lie.
But, really, if they say a cost is $199/night when the minimum cost is $250/night and they know that to be the case, how can that be anything other than a lie?
According to your definition of lying/fraud, basically all of the following would count as fraud:
1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout. The sign in the aisle says "3.99" but the minimum you can pay for it is 3.99 x .08 or whatever, so according to your definition that's lying.
2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling, because those charges aren't calculated until checkout (usually because they are variable). Again, according to you, another instance of lying.
3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching. A place that charges $199/night but has a $100 cleaning fee may or may not be a better deal than a $250/night place with a $40 cleaning fee, depending on my length of stay. If I just lump that in with a nightly rate, and my dates are flexible, I lose information about which place may be the better deal.
4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees. The parking fees were clearly spelled out in the contract (but, again, only on checkout). But this truly is an optional fee - many customers would Uber or whatever to get to the rental without a car. What determined whether the customer thought it was "fraud" was their own personal expectations about what should be included, even if other customers didn't share those expectations.
Furthermore, many/most of these sites that only show details of fees on checkout still say "plus fees" or "plus S/H" on search result pages. Is it still fraud if they tell you there are fees upfront but don't actually tell you what those fees are until checkout?
In general, I just find it very distasteful when folks try to redefine words that have pretty straightforward meanings to meet their personal definition of the what they think the word should mean, especially for topics that have gray areas, and especially when there are other words that better encompass the idea that you're making a statement of opinion rather than fact. E.g. I think most people wouldn't mind you saying "Their marketing practices are deceptive", because most people would think there is some amount of opinion into what constitutes deception, but most people think of fraud as much more of a clear-and-dry instance of lying for financial gain.
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1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout
Which is, of course, insane. There is no good reason for taxes to not be rolled into the price. What next? An 'employee wages' line item that gets added at checkout? Maybe a 'mall rental space' one? A 'shareholder dividend' one?
> 2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling.
Depending on where they ship, those are at least unknown until checkout.
> 3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching.
Rental availability is only known when you enter a date range. If you've entered a date range, there's no reason the fees can't be included in the price. There's nothing fraudulent about selling 5 nights for $180/night, versus 4 nights for $195/night, just like there's nothing fraudulent about charging more for 2x2L jugs of milk than for 1x4L jug.
> 4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees.
Unlike #1 and #3 (Sales tax, cleaning fees), parking fees really are optional.
My definition of fraud is: “lying to someone to induce them to do something they wouldn’t have done without the lie”.
I think the hidden pricing lines up neatly with my definition.
What’s your definition? (We don’t need to come to an agreement, just curious how you think about it)