I don't run around enough to care about quick/instant startup. Despite using the Windows 10 Windows menu Power command to "Shut down" my Thinkpad X1C6, I took it out of its bag the following day, on a few not too infrequent occasions, to find it warm and "doing stuff" (Windows Update sticks in my mind). Moreso than a lowered charge, the idea of it cooking itself inside its padded sleeve and bag caused me concern.
After a bit of investigation, I settled on training myself to always open/use a command window to issue "shutdown /s".
No more warm or hot, drained laptop since then.
I agree with Linus: Microsoft's behavior and indifference WRT this problem is reprehensible. For me, it is another example of how Microsoft has not -- fundamentally -- changed since its E3 days. The 900 pound gorilla that we will, per force, accommodate. Amazing how entrenched such cultural mindsets are.
By the way, the X1C6 as configured by Lenovo does not support S3. Since Linus, in his demo of a possible BIOS configuration change, was using a Thinkpad, maybe I'll get lucky with that option -- watch the video to see whether you might have such a fix for your system.
Someone in Microsoft has a KPI related to the percentage of machines updated with the latest patches every month.
He or she can best meet their KPIs at the low, low cost of the occasional destroyed laptop, fire, or -- very rare -- customer death.
People just have to accept the risk of burning to death so that this person can meet their KPIs by forcefully updating laptops even if they're hibernating, in a laptop bag, and in the cargo hold of an airliner.
Those passengers knew what they were signing up for when they boarded that plane together with a Windows user.
"He or she can best meet their KPIs at the low, low cost of the occasional destroyed laptop, fire, or -- very rare -- customer death."
With millions of users it's less likely to be rare. As tragic as it sounds, Microsoft likely won't brought to heel until it too experiences a Boeing 737MAX-type incident of its own making.
Such is the arrogance of those who run Microsoft.
"PS: one would hope that this bad unsafe design would already be under investigation by various safety regulators/authorities. Perhaps this story may awaken them."
I will never buy a Microsoft laptop or tablet again unless there is a switch to really truly turn the damn thing off. My Surface Pro 4, which was only lightly used, had the battery degrade about as fast as you might expect from a very heavily used machine probably due to "shut down" not actually shutting down.
I'm sure someone has pointed this out already, but if you hit the Windows key and search for "lid" there's a setting that lets you make the machine hibernate when the lid is closed. Hibernate is different from sleep in that it moves all of the memory state to disk and actually turns the machine off. Assuming your laptop has an SSD you're not going to notice the extra restore time next time you open it.
Perhaps so, but my dang MacBook does the same thing. I have turned off every single thing that I possibly can that would cause it to wake up, and yet I still randomly find it turning on for no reason pretty much every other day. I’ll walk by my study and find it turning on for short periods, I’ve pulled it out of my bag hot as fire, I’ve had it drain the battery in the middle of the night, etc. Looking at the logs, I’ll often see that it just decided to get into a random loop of dark wakes and sleeps. It’s infuriating.
I think the issue with macbooks is similar, but happens when you have USB-C dock with an external display connected. When you close the lid while connected to the dock, mac does not go to sleep but just switches to using the external display (aka clamshell mode) and when you unplug your computer to put it in your backpack, it just remains active instead of going to sleep.
The solution to this is to install noclamshell via brew or just get in the habit of disconnecting your mac first before closing the lid.
I noticed this because previously it was sleeping completly fine and the problems started only recently which is inline then I started using the dock.
I've seen that happen, but I'm specifically talking about disconnecting my dock (if it's even connected), closing my lid, confirming the fans are off, putting it in a bag, then finding it back on later doing an infinite loop of darkwakes for no reason.
On Apple Silicon Macs, the machine is never going into that deep a sleep to wake up from (it's basically a huge iPhone, remember?) and Wake for network access is not for Wake on LAN but rather if you want it to keep WiFi running to get push notifications etc while in "sleep" (the description under it in Settings even says it's for iMessage and iCloud updates).
Marcan has talked about Apple Silicon sleep states wrt to implementing it in Asahi Linux and IIRC they never put the machine to sleep, they just stop all the processes and hardware like the display and let the CPU idle normally (which it's extremely efficient at)
Yeah. I have an Intel MacBook Pro (nearly 10 years old) and never hit this problem. I can leave it on the shelf for a month and it’ll still have a 70% charge. I just gave up on Windows and brought a new M1 Mac due to this exact issue (the Intel one wasn’t getting OS updates any more).
The speed and reliability with which a Mac sleeps and wakes and how well it maintains battery is insanely good. My Windows laptop was more like a portable desktop, as I always had to plug it in and would walk around with the lid open rather than risk a sleep/wake attempt between meetings.
But according to the video; a 10 year old windows laptop wouldn't have this issue as well. It would probably go to sleep properly as expected almost every time.
Also I have had this issue with Macbook Pro 15 (2019), so it can't be guaranteed every-time for any OS I guess; not sure of the reason though. To me closing the lid should take preference over everything.
I'm temporarily sleeping in the room with my MacBook Pro, and it wakes up (and turns on a glowing peripheral too) half a dozen times during the night, to the point I unplug that peripheral before I go to sleep.
My previous, older Mac wouldn't sleep at all for more than a few seconds unless I unplugged the external monitor.
Yeah, I've turned literally everything off that I can. Not just power nap, all the random wake settings they have: powernap off, proximitywake off, networkoversleep off... all the way down to actually disabling wifi and bt when my lid closes. It's a mess.
What worked for me was disabling the feature of keeping the TCP connections alive. No idea if it's covered by 'networkoversleep', but this is as deep as I've went, considering I've then received a warning that "Find my Mac" will stop working after this toggle.
yep, I did the same. So, last time I dug into it, I found a separate issue where it would darkwake to do things like check in with find my mac, and then an app that had an idle power assertion would prevent the darkwake from fully shutting down again. That's separate from it getting into a weird loop of waking and sleeping though.
I gave up running Thinkpads when I ran out of ways to actually get the damn thing to turn off. I'd shut it down, only to find that my bluetooth peripherals were still connected to it instead of the computer I now wanted to use. I'd fully charge it and stick it in a bag for a trip, only for it to be dead when I got there. The straw that broke the camel's back was the unending Steam notification of "Thinkpad is available for streaming" popping up literally every five minutes. Off should mean fucking OFF.
I have a ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen6, and indeed there is the "Linux" sleep-state option, which has been working for years just fine for me. I'm running a Linux-based OS. Before Lenovo added this option via bios update (via fwupd:), i indeed had to manually manipulate the DSDT to achieve S3 sleep.
sydney6 is referring to a Thinkpad BIOS setting that is labeled "Linux" but really pertains to enabled sleep/power states -- per Linus' video (the OP), this setting works just fine with Windows, too.
This is all described towards the end of the video, for those who don't want to watch the whole ~11 minute thing.
P.S. I should clarify that it works just fine with Windows settings hackery that was being used prior to BIOS implementors disabling or eliminating S3 in their BIOS's.
It depends, this thinkpad has lpddr memory and if i suspend the system, it can indeed go for weeks (2-3) on a single charge on S3. I used to only update the truly necessary like firefox and the like on do reboots only every 50-60 days with a kernel upgrade and had never issues with multiple daily suspend/resume cycles execpt every 3-4 months, the wifi/bt controller wouldn't correctly load FW and needed reloading, that's about it. _But_, imho, this works only completely "naked", that is, i use a separate usb-c DP-alt-mode cable, a separate usb-c charging cable and keyboard/trackpad via bluetooth. I have had issues with Thunderbolt-Docks _and_ USB-C Docks (so far: Lenovo, Caldigit, Belkin, no-name), USB-C Monitors with integrated Hubs and NICS, USB-NICS, USB-Hubs, pretty much everything external connected, that is not onboard the machine itself. This works well, the rest is a complete disaster and i fear not completely Windows/Mac/Linux Kernel's fault.
I have a CalDigit mini Thunderbolt 3 dock that provides two DisplayPort ports, a 1 Gbps Ethernet port, and a USB (2? I forget) port. I use it to connect two WQHD monitors, Ethernet, and a wired mouse.
It's a real crapshoot whether the dock will properly or fully connect upon cold startup or reboot. Sometimes everything is dead. Sometimes the monitors get signal but Ethernet and the mouse are down. Sometimes only the mouse is down; very occasionally, only Ethernet is down.
About a year ago, I spent multiple hours on the phone in a looong call with a CalDigit support rep. Essentially, we used my system to troubleshoot. We never solved the problem.
With time and observation, I've learned it's best to cold boot (with power connected, my daily work configuration) with this CalDigit Thunderbolt dock physically disconnected. After Windows has booted and gotten to its desktop, I then wait 90 - 100 seconds or a bit longer before I plug in the dock. Doing this, my success at having everything come up working is 50% or even a bit more.
If dock isn't fully functional, repeated warm rebooting is not too likely to correct this. The best bet is to hard shutdown, maybe wait a bit for whatever capacitors to discharge, and then start the above procedure over.
The CalDigit rep thought it was maybe the Thunderbolt support/configuration in my X1C6 that was/is to blame, but I have since formed the impression that Thunderbolt, for all its vaunted power, is actually kind of a shitshow.
The X1C6 did initially have a problem: It rewrote its Thunderbolt configuration upon every boot, into a kind of physically memory not designed to have a lifespan of that many writes. About a year, as I understand it, was what it took for many users to start having problems. Lenovo did eventually ship a firmware update to stop this behavior, and through circumstances I'll skip I ended up de facto avoiding the problem. My point in mentioning this being, maybe the X1C6's Thunderbolt support is still/also borked in some manner that causes my problem with the CalDigit dock.
But, I'm not too convinced of this. And I suspect CalDigit is using the same chipset that many other brands are using for similar docks.
For all the premium they charge for it, Thunderbolt designers/implementors should... be induced to provide a better result. IMHO.
> The X1C6 did initially have a problem: It rewrote its Thunderbolt configuration upon every boot, into a kind of physically memory not designed to have a lesson of that many writes.
Heh, that's such a Lenovo problem. I hard bricked my old ThinkPad W520 four times (and got warranty replacements) just by hitting F12 to bring up the BIOS boot menu. It did some sort of write that wore out the BIOS flash chip. I don't think they ever fixed that problem.
I actually have a W520 that I'd like to continue to use. (That keyboard, plus a surprisingly decent display panel for Lenovo.)
I hadn't heard of this problem, so thanks for the heads up! I'll be very planful and sparing in my BIOS config access/writes.
I think CoreBoot has made it to some if not all of the -20 series. I wonder whether it would make any difference, although I can't see how if you're still writing to that storage.
Interesting! I didn't know coreboot was available for the *20 series. I hadn't touched my W520 since the last warranty replacement. Maybe coreboot will be my next weekend project.
I had always assumed I was doing something wrong, glad to hear it’s not just me. Ubuntu works extremely well except for sleeping just emptying the battery. Got way to used to MacBooks not killing the battery in like 24 hours of sleep…
using linux + sleep = ur wrong. turn your computer off. sleep is a lie that never EVER did what it claimed. the only thing it's good for is enabling bad user behavior. period.
I close the lid of my MacBook and come back two days later: my MacBook has lost 3% of its battery.
If I open my laptop within 24hrs then it is already ready by the time I finish opening the lid. This immediacy means I don’t lose my train of thought (ie; the reason I grabbed my laptop in the first place).
I’m a hard Linux lover, and begrudgingly use a MacBook, but sleep has a lot of value, and the Mac stuff seems to work a lot more consistently than what windows is offering. (Linux too, in a number of circumstances: though my old precision 5520 never had an issue with suspend)
I’ve run Linux on both my Dell XPS 15 (9500) and my Zephyrus G14 (2022). In both cases, the default state is to sleep like Windows 11’s modern standby. In Zephyrus’ case, I can force the old behavior as it’s still supported by the UEFI. However, the Dell can only be powered off or use modern standby. It does not support traditional sleep states. This is, in fact, one of my main reasons for the “downgrade”.
What I do on my work Thinkpad is disabling standby altogether. I just let it hibernate. Windows 10 and 11 are very quick at restoring. Not instant but good enough.
Save to to swap and hibernate (turn all the way off) on lid close.
It's like 8 seconds longer to boot back up - but It uses no battery and produces no heat.
Crazy how fast machines boot these days. I'm low 30s and still vividly remember the days of waiting 3 to 5 minutes for a machine to come up. Those days are gone - The value proposition of sleep is just really, really low right now.
Generally speaking - I'd rather have the extra 10% battery life per day over saving 15 seconds basically always - even when sleep works perfectly.
I can leave a machine for 5 to 10 days, and it comes right back up at the same battery I left it. A machine in sleep will be completely dead.
I once lost a Surface 2 Pro to self-cookery--took it out of my bag at the airport departures lounge, the thing had to be 140F on the outside and it was bricked. On the plus side, Microsoft later replaced it gratis with a like model.
For myself, I prefer not to force application closures. If something's stuck, I'd rather look into it and avoid potential data loss. I'm seldom in that much of a hurry, these days (but I understand others can be).
I don't run around enough to care about quick/instant startup. Despite using the Windows 10 Windows menu Power command to "Shut down" my Thinkpad X1C6, I took it out of its bag the following day, on a few not too infrequent occasions, to find it warm and "doing stuff" (Windows Update sticks in my mind). Moreso than a lowered charge, the idea of it cooking itself inside its padded sleeve and bag caused me concern.
After a bit of investigation, I settled on training myself to always open/use a command window to issue "shutdown /s".
No more warm or hot, drained laptop since then.
I agree with Linus: Microsoft's behavior and indifference WRT this problem is reprehensible. For me, it is another example of how Microsoft has not -- fundamentally -- changed since its E3 days. The 900 pound gorilla that we will, per force, accommodate. Amazing how entrenched such cultural mindsets are.
By the way, the X1C6 as configured by Lenovo does not support S3. Since Linus, in his demo of a possible BIOS configuration change, was using a Thinkpad, maybe I'll get lucky with that option -- watch the video to see whether you might have such a fix for your system.