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SpaceX launches Starlink ‘flat high-performance’ dish for moving vehicles (teslanorth.com)
105 points by awoodbeck on Oct 26, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 59 comments



I was surprised to see this, because I thought a previous FCC regulatory decision limited Starlink terminals to being operational only when stationary.

Some Googling revealed that the FCC reversed this in June of 2022.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/30/23190463/spacex-starlink-...


I think SpaceX simply had never previously asked the FCC to authorize it. Not really a reversal of any particular opinionated stance.


What was the reasoning for FCC's original decision? Why would they try to stop it?


The original decision was this:

SpaceX: "Hey FCC, can we get permitted for stationary satellite dishes?"

FCC: "Yes."

The new decision:

SpaceX: "Hey FCC, can we also get permitted for moving dishes?"

FCC: "Yes."

The FCC didn't try to stop anything, they just weren't asked about moving dishes the first time.


I'm still curious about the legal situation here. Why is it banned by default? I mean other wireless communications are totally fine to use while in motion (HAM, cell service, wifi, CB, GPS, Satellite telephones, etc). Why does the FCC explicitly have to approve this kind of thing? I imagine it is more than bureaucracy?


I don’t think it’s banned by default, but the rules surrounding mobile and fixed differ slightly. Perhaps getting limited regulatory approval for a fixed network would face less regulatory hoops and thus be approved faster.


> Why is it banned by default?

AFAIK all FCC rules on frequency allocation (which is what SpaceX needed) are usually geo-locked. It's a lot easier to commit to fixed transmitters early on with the idea that any specific problems can be dealt with than getting permission to move them around at will.

Also, during this time the FCC has been redoing the rules on the bands they use to try to allow companies this kind of use. So in 2021 they asked for ideas, and SpaceX suggested mobile uplinks as a permissible use. Then, hearings and feedback from a lot of companies occurred.


Since RF spectrum is a very limited resource, everything is approached from a standpoint of "nothing is okay, unless it explicitly is". It is, rightly, tightly managed.

The things you mentioned are either in public bands (HAM, CB) or have long since gotten the same permission (sat phones).

The only reason this is newsworthy is because spacex/starlink. Headlines like "Satellite Phones BANNED (before the FCC approved their application)" don't get clicks.


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From what I read, Musk doesn't want your money for SpaceX/Starlink precisely because he doesn't want the funds of the company to be chained to a public perception war that distracts him from running the company, like happened with Tesla during the doubtful years when half of the market was betting against him. Why take public funding when you can reap all the revenue directly?


Being “public” has issue yes. That doesn’t mean we need maternalistic governmental policy to “”protect”” people.


It sounds like you're upset that you're not considered an accredited investor - but even if you were, it's not like SpaceX would just give you some shares if you gave them $10M.


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What makes you think Elon would take your money? Do you plan to email him? Why take a large number of small dollar checks from people who (as a group) don't know the first thing about private company investment when you can take a $100M check from one of a few funds and individuals who do? What specifically do you bring to the table that your $10K investment will make up for the administrative costs of having you on the cap table?

The reality is that companies who can raise capital from top-tier investors will do that and not bother with what to them is chump-change - but the companies that can't raise capital from top-tier investors will definitely take your money and then proceed to lose it all.

[edit] The system we have right now is a pretty reasonable balance IMO and the bar has been going lower and lower over time as the $1M/$200K/yr limits aren't indexed to inflation.


I have reply capabilities again. See my edit.

It is documented fact that SpaceX takes private investment.

It is also documented fact that the occupation regime has faux safety mechanisms designed to enrich their own at the expense of others.


There are other (partly regulatory, partly logistical) reasons that companies don't like having extremely large cap sheets.

At this scale if it's easy to raise $2B from 2-3 institutional investors you probably don't want to take money from 50,000 small investors.


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I don't actually disagree with you, I don't like the limits on individual investment. It's a weird mashup of paternalism and protectionism by large banks that want to capture startup value.

But in practice I do not believe that even in a highly deregulated investment environment SpaceX would open itself up to retail investment right now.


We did actually try this, and it was a contributing factor to the Great Depression.

Because (a) you don't know Elon (b) you provide no value to them (c) at this stage they're not taking $10K checks from private investors because it would cost more to keep it on the cap table than it would benefit them and ...

Theres massive adverse selection bias. Good companies get significantly more value from raising a few small checks than they do from a ton of tiny ones from people without experience doing so or specific skills/connections. So the ones that can, will, and the bad companies that can't will come for the small time chumps. This played out in the early 1900s, and no, nothing's really changed.

Besides if Elon really wanted your $10K they could have raised via Reg CF (JOBS act 2012). However, they're actively choosing not to. And I keep using $10K as the number because honestly if you're writing a $100K check you're probably an accredited investor.


I can reply again

The government that exists solely because I work and pay taxes has no ethical basis for telling me how I can invest my money.

To suggest otherwise is to let the mask slip and admit they are not working in my (or your) interest.

The part you’re missing is if elon rejected my $100k 3+ years ago then OK, fine. That would suck for me, but that’s his choice etc. I can bitch to him.

Instead I have a maternal nanny state that employs exclusively 70IQ morons telling me what I can and can’t do with the money they don’t steal from me. There is no Jack Bauer running the show, it’s your kindergarten teacher with NSA powers.

Explain to me, in detail, why I would continue to work for a system like that? Why would I not try to leave such a system as soon as I am able?


> The part you’re missing is if elon rejected my $100k 3+ years ago then OK, fine. That would suck for me, but that’s his choice etc. I can bitch to him.

He did, because he didn't run a CF campaign. Savvy?

Good companies that want your money have avenues, and yeah it may take a bit of extra paperwork but that's just fine. Look at Replit raising via WeFunder.


My experience with Starlink is that it kind of works(I get 50-100Mb bandwidth) but I have multiple(as in 10s) sub-second interruptions every hour.

Dishy view is completely unobstructed. And weather is clear most of the time in California.

As much as I hate Comcast, if 100Mb Comcast was available in my area I would trade it in a heartbeat.


Wait until you get the strange billing from ComCast first.

My mom had it in Florida and I found she had all sorts of extra charges for items and services she never had. There is a reason ComCast has a bad rep.


There's also a reason every terrestrial ISP has bandwidth caps.

"Unlimited" satellite bandwidth is not sustainable, and once the business model changes to acknowledge that, Starlink will join the ranks.


> if 100Mb Comcast was available in my area I would trade it in a heartbeat

Um...duh. Starlink isn't meant to replace your internet where typical options are available. It's meant to give something where there was nothing, or replace much worse satellite internet options.


That’s my experience, yes. I wonder if there are enough such people to make Starlink profitable.


You’d be shocked how many areas outside major metro areas don’t have any broadband options. When we were buying a home recently, we had to carefully search Comcast and Wave’s websites to make sure the home had broadband service. Lots of homes only had satellite internet.

If you add RVs, boats, and planes, there’s an even bigger potential market for Starlink.


I’m in a major metro with no good internet options! I assume the cost of laying down fibre optic is too high due to the buildings, roads, etc.

Seriously considering Starlink instead of old copper.


Worldwide? Definitely. Enough that also have the resources to pay? Not 100% sure, but I would imagine so. I think I read 500,000 Australians alone live in places with very little internet connection, or are currently served with Geo-Sync internet heavily subsidized by our government.


I’ve experienced these pauses as well but they’ve only been problematic on real time video calls in practice. I wouldn’t trade my fiber for full time Starlink but I would definitely choose it over any Comcast offering (for personal use)


I use starlink here in the UK. I don't get any drops and I spend probably around 4 hours a day on video calls. I've heard people say it can be regional though.


I get these 0.5s and 0.7s drops as well (maybe 10-20 per hour), in Texas. To be honest, I don't even notice the sub-second drops.


I only notice them during ssh sessions or voip/zoom calls.

They don’t affect web browsing or streaming movies


Try using MOSH; that will eliminate the problem for your shell sessions.


> As much as I hate Comcast, if 100Mb Comcast was available in my area I would trade it in a heartbeat.

And that's expected. Elon Musk has publicly stated before that Starlink has no plans for competing with Comcast.


Have you raised that with starlink support?


Horizon to horizon in all directions?


A friend has regular "RV" starlink, and uses it all the time in motion strapped on top of his spare tire on the rear tailgate of his SUV. It works flawlessly.... except he's done a TON of off road driving on bad corrugations, which eventually killed it - I guess the internal motors are not designed for those kind of vibrations.

SpaceX sent him a new dish free of charge.


What type of warranty does the dish come with? Also, do they have some mechanism to detect if it was used "incorrectly" similar to how old iPhones used to have a color changing strip inside to detect water damage?


I have no idea, but he said they were super easy about it - no worries, just send the old one in and we'll send you a new one, free.

We both figured it's product testing, and they didn't seem put out at all.


(a) is it the same phased array antenna as dishy v2?

(b) is power usage improved? at 90 Watts dishy v2 is not perfect for an RV.

(c) dishy v2 has pretty slow startup time. It might be less than perfect if that thing required 10 minutes of unobstructed view to bootstrap.

I have mixed experiences with dishyv2 tech. I've had situations when it was flawless with half-obstructed view. I've had moments when it had hiccups without any obstructions.

Anyway, very interesting. Obviously this is a big deal for many applications.


There's not really an issue with power on moving vehicles except sail boats.


It is an issue when your parked off grid and run off battery, 90w is significant. My 5G router with wifi 6 pulls under 10w direct 12v DC. It looks like the flat dish is actually 110-150w and requires AC power, so not great for off grid usage as inverter losses will add another 10-20w on top.


A tangential comment. I opened the page on a non ad blocked browser and my eyes burnt. I am OK with ads but this is next level intrusive.


You made me try and now I regret it. How could they imagine anyone would want to read their page stuffed with all that garbage is beyond me.


Is it going to end up in Tesla truck and cars ? Tesla is building an army of connected robots on wheels.


Tesla vehicles and in fact most of today's cars and trucks have mobile connectivity, so the army of connected robots on wheels is already a thing.


Not sure if the current fleet talk much. With ubiquitous connectivity, maybe we could have all those vehicles talking to each other to act collectively.


Anybody know what RF frequency it operates on? Would have impact on FCC rules. I'm guessing 24GHz or thereabouts based on size.


The majority of RV/vanlifers do not need internet in motion, they just want a regular static 12V dish that can be mounted fixed and flush to the roof/racks like any solar panel.

$2500 for such a dish is the wrong target market. The only customer that needs internet in motion are things like boats, planes, trains and buses.


Normal dishy works fine in motion so while it would be nice to have a lower priced option more suitable for mounting that doesn't work while in motion, such a distinction would be software only, and that always feels scummy.

How would you feel if you paid $700 for a vehicle mountable dish and then had the option to pay $2000 to "upgrade" it to allow to use it while it was in motion?

That's the sort of thing that really bothers some people. Hacker News celebrated when New Jersey proposed banning that sort of thing in cars.


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tbf, interruptions are also a problem with Satellite TV systems


I don't think interruptions are a problem with satellite TV. The satellites are in geosynchronous orbit (unlike Starlink in low-earth-orbit). As long as your view is not blocked or impeded by bad weather you will never see an interruption. Source: worked on satellite TV set top boxes (also had DirecTV for awhile).


This press release seems pretty light on information. This could be a phased array antenna according to this review (which seems to be focused on airplane-mounted devices):

https://www.bcsatellite.net/blog/flat-panel-antennas-state-o...

> "Currently the most popular alternative to Gimbal antennas are Phased Array Antenna flat panel antennas, which are composed of many radiating elements that can be thought of as numerous, tiny, fixed antennas. Each one has a phase shifter which forms beams by shifting the phase of the signal emitted from each of the radiating elements (tiny antennas). This provides a constructive/destructive interference which may be used to steer the beam(s) in a particular direction. This entire process is all electric, so the beam direction can be controlled and pointed instantaneously in any direction. It is able to track the movement of a satellite in the sky, regardless of the movement of the car, boat, airplane, or train."


The current Starlink antenna is phased-array.


Yes, all starlink user terminals are phased arrays.


They have to be due to how rapidly the sats move in and out of view.


Also frequency re-use. They will talk on the same frequency to multiple ground terminals, but pointed different directions from the satellites perspective.


Did not know that, neat. Phased arrays are so cool.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs2QcycggWU check this out, excellent teardown explanation about how the antenna works.


The math used to determine the phase offsets to steer the beam is absurd.


The flat panel is a phased array dead give away. The performance and cost advantages of digital beamforming are such that you can pretty much assume any high tech antenna is a multi channel array.




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