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Ask HN: Corp gives “contractor” benefits, want “employee” obligations, what now?
77 points by fakecontractor on Oct 25, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 101 comments
I am a remote worker in a country that is not the same one as any of the company offices (they have multiple offices in multiple countries).

They hired me as "contractor", but promised I would be treated as employee, to facilitate things legally.

Things went good at first, but now they been treating me as contractor regarding rights, but employee regarding what they want from me.

    - I have no vacation, no paid sick days, no leave, no benefits.
    - One of the owners (he has a huge amount of shares) explicitly told me I will never get a raise, because contractors don't get raises.
At same time:

    - I have to work in specific work hours
    - I have a manager that even micromanages my work and keep pestering me whenever I don't reply promptly, can't even go to the bathroom without my phone without this guy noticing.
    - I got a semi-leadership position, I don't have any employees under me but there is a project in the company that I own completely and make all decisions, and whenever someone else screws up on that project I am responsible (even if they don't report to me directly).
    - Whenever a project is late, I have to help and work unpaid overtime (in fact I worked the past months 12+ hour per day including weekends, also having zoom calls with clients 4:00 in the morning is a thing that happened).
Also despite my speed being faster and faster, with more and more Jira tickets completed, enormous amount of Git commits, and clients being happy with my work, my manager keeps saying I am underperformer.

To be honest I wanted to quit, but I am living paycheck to paycheck with zero savings after I had to expend them because of a family member car accident. Other employees been quitting for a while now, company has very high turnover, including losing lead engineers that didn't document their work so many new employees have no idea how the company tech actually works.

Also the jurisdiction of my contract is UK, but I don't live in UK, and I am not UK citizen, I am not sure if I even can sue them, or if I was going to sue them, what kind of lawyer I would have to look for.

Contract is full of sketchy stuff, like they owning even my personal diary if I wrote in it during my contract, or owning my private correspondence.




Contractor math.

There are 52 weeks in 1 year. Give yourself 2 weeks vacation that leaves 50 weeks. At 40 hours per week that is 2000 hours as a full time equivalent (a salaried position). If you bill at 100/hour that is 200k/year.

If you want/need 4 weeks off, assume 1920 hours per year and adjust your hourly rate, call it ~105/hour

If your medical insurance costs 6k per year, adjust your hourly rate, call it ~107.3/hour

If you want disability/life insurance and the cost to you is 15k per year, adjust your hourly rate, call it now ~115/hour.

Giving up 50k in stock options, well that's a one time thing. Also if a relocation is required and your partner looses their positon better factor that into your decision - up front.

This all gets negotiated up front - not 4 months in.

Good luck on your next negotiation.


The days of UK software contractors being paid £115 per hour are long gone


Because it's much more or much less?

I'm guessing by the GP assuming 10 days/year of vacation they're in the US. $115/hr is a decent contractor wage, especially on the more independent/freelance side of the spectrum. "Contractors" hired from companies in a C2C arrangement will be billed much higher, at rates approaching senior associates at law firms (I've seen $400/hr bill rates for senior Oracle contractors who aren't even coding, just implementing and configuring), while the people you're getting are earning anywhere from $30-150/hr, but via W2.

I'm in the US and bill $90/hr on a long-term contract because the work is easy and I am free to do anywhere from 0 to 30 hours a week at my discretion. So there are lots of reasons to willingly bill (sometimes much) less than you otherwise might.


I'm pretty sure I can get 800+p/d in London.

Almost 10 years ago Barclays was paying my 600p/d


The current going rate for general software development for London banks is around £750-800 per day via an umbrella company. Depending on a few details that works out equivalent to maybe £650 per day for a real (outside IR35) contract position.

I haven't heard of anyone other than the most senior and well connected taking home £800 outside IR35 for software development in the financial services industry since the changes to the off payroll rules. Obviously there are exceptions like quants but that's playing a different game really.


The problem is that you are likely to see very similar rates even after all those years.


Oh yeah. The rates haven't risen drastically.

But GBP100 p/h isn't unattainable


Of course all depends on the skills required, but yes, those rates are doable.


Inside or outside IR35 for the 800 figure?


Outside


Depends on your specialisation ;)


I've contracted for 10+ years and this is not a healthy place for you to be working. Find yourself something else if you can as soon as possible for your own health.

I got some professional contracts drafted up that favour software engineers specifically for the UK market. Feel free to contact me through the website and I'll send you them for free. Hopefully they will help you solidify more healthy contracts in the future: https://davidthorpe.dev/resources/contracts.html


Thanks, just bought it - will become useful I'm sure!


Hope you find it useful man !


Just to address one of your many points: "contractors don't get raises"

I heard similar at my company. But every year I write a letter requesting a raise and send it to at least two people in the company. "One of the owners..." then send the letter to more than one owner or an owner and your direct manager. That owner probably wouldn't re-iterate how cheap they are if a direct-hire is cc'ed.

In the letter, I politely explain my recent contributions, the fact I have competing interests and other opportunities but would like to keep working there. I don't make it sound like I have one foot out the door but it's implied I am standing near the door and it's up to them to keep me.

I have never failed to get a raise in over 10 years. When I shared this with a co-worker (contractor), I learned she hasn't received a raise in 4 years. Same goes for the other contractors (5+ years?). The money is there, so just ask for it. If they don't have the money for a modest raise then it's sinking ship.


Huh. I'm a contractor. I just tell them what my rate is. Then they have to pay that, or cut my hours. There's very little in the way of 'negotiation'.

In fact, the last two years require a rate bump of 25% just to beat inflation. You don't do that, you're losing ground.


This is the correct way to do it. There is no "negotiation" when you're a contractor, except between you and the market in that broad hand-wavey sense. You set a rate. They have a budget. The rest is just math.

The inflation number is absolutely wrong though. There obviously hasn't been nearly 25% inflation over the past 24 months.


The concept of asking for a raise doesn't make sense to me even as a regular employee.

If you need to beg for a raise, you're already in a bad negotiating position. The ideal situation is to figure out what you'd require to stay with your current employer, and see if they want to match that.

You shouldn't need to care what their HR says is the "going rate" for your position, nor what the company has allocated for yearly raises. That's largely posturing on their part, and tells you little about how much they're willing to pay you if push comes to shove.


If you're at a toxic company, you will need to ask for every raise, and will only ever get less than you ask for.

But I feel like this comment ignores the fact that companies do have budgets, and the people above you still have their own budgets and bosses to report to. If you work for a company (especially public or non-venture, especially non-tech) there will absolutely be a lot of cost controls and constraints around what is allocated to raises, new hire salaries, retention and signing bonuses, etc. It's exceedingly rare that the line manager has authority to give anyone a 20% raise when he's given a 4% budget increase across the board.


> But I feel like this comment ignores the fact that companies do have budgets, and the people above you still have their own budgets and bosses to report to.

I didn't mean to imply that those factors aren't real.

Rather, I was recommending that employees try to avoid being in a situation where those factors matter to the employee. Ideally you're aware of your options, and prepared to change jobs if it's in your interest.

Unless you're personally invested in the employer, it's just business.


> The inflation number is absolutely wrong though. There obviously hasn't been nearly 25% inflation over the past 24 months.

Sure—judging from my grocery and gas bills, it's higher than that.


Unironically, food and fuel aren't including in US inflation numbers. Because reasons.


This isn't even remotely true. You can see what goes into the CPI, and food is the #2 category after shelter. Motor fuel is included in transportation.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/01/24/as-inflatio... https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/motor-fuel.htm


Now I'm confused. [0] states that food and fuel are exempt for the "Core Inflation" metric calculation because they are historically volatile.

> Core inflation is the change in the costs of goods and services but does not include those from the food and fuel sectors. This measure of inflation excludes these items because their prices are much more volatile. It is most often calculated using the consumer price index (CPI), which is a measure of prices for goods and services.

> The Fed prefers to use the PCE index rather than CPI since PCE tends to provide inflation trends that are less affected by short-term price changes. Also, the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA), a division of the Department of Commerce, calculates the change of prices by using existing gross domestic product (GDP) data, which helps to determine an overall trend in prices.

[0] https://www.livetradingnews.com/what-is-core-inflation-and-w...


The cpi and other inflation metrics get messed up by hedonic adjustment and improper weighing of the baskets. Sometimes just looking at the M2 money supply is a better estimate. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WM2NS

Significantly more money chasing the same amount of goods= inflation


https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-infl...


Where are the two years of 25% inflation?


"There hasn't been near 25% inflation..."

The last two years alone add up to 16%. The next year looks to be similar.

Though I admit, I posted the wrong number - I have to raise my rate by $25/hr to keep up. I wrote that number instead of 16% which is what we've had to eat in the last two years.


Yeah closer to 35 so 25 is the low end


hasn't it been 9.5% in the US in the last year? i can believe 18 over 2 years


>>The inflation number is absolutely wrong though. There obviously hasn't been nearly 25% inflation over the past 24 months.

Uhm, have you been to the grocery store of late? Inflation is damn near 40%

Certain items I buy one the regular have gone up a minimum of 25%

Look at fucking gas prices.


Yes, "look at fucking gas prices" to see the inflation-adjusted price has been stable and slightly decreasing for well over two decades. [0]

Your anecdotes about whatever random nonsense you're buying are irrelevant. Inflation is in the mid-to-high single digits. 25% a year for two consecutive years is a categorically false assertion.

[0] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/gasoline-prices-adjust...


You're a contractor.

You don't get a "raise". You tell your client that your rates are changing and you would like to renegotiate your rate.

Also - if you're in a contract job for 4 years, there's something wrong


" if you're in a contract job for 4 years, there's something wrong"

Depends on your goals. I've been contracting at the same company for 10years. It gave me the flexibility to run and operate a successful side business and take unpaid vacation time whenever I want.


Let me correct myself - if you're in one contract doing the same thing for 4 years, there's something wrong.(IMO)

I love contracting and it's my preferred method of working. However - staying in one contract for 4 years is a red flag. (barring some really long term projects)


as a contractor for over a decade of my 25 year career - I would do big builds and some contracts were only like 9 months... and when I would apply at other places they would always ask me, because they were ignorant of what I did - "Why were you only there 9 months"

And I would have to explain "Because that was what I was contracted to do"

The only contract that I was terminated early from was FB -- but that was because I accidentally, through my status reports, revealed that a certain executive named "the Captain" was hiding build schedule delays for the Sydney office (he went on vacation so I had to speak directly to the contractors building out the office, and found out they were behind schedule by a month and over budget and I put it in my status report, and upon his return from vacation he had me terminated for revealing that info)

and the fucked up part was that my manager and team just left the area, then I got a call from the contracting company telling me I had to leave the building - and I was commuting to work via the FB van... so I was stranded in Menlo Park....


Employee - stuff a max of $20,000/yr into US retirement plans if your employer offers one, and pretty much no other tax deductions

Contractor - stuff $500,000/yr into a combination of US retirement plans, and a ton of other deductions

Don't forget, these plans grow tax free. Your 401k can invest in a Private Equity fund once it is also an accredited investor or can make the minimum investment amount.

I pretty much hate W-2 employment. It's the slowest way to make money and taxed the highest.

I'm familiar with places where contractors are like second-class workers hoping for a conversion to employment, that makes sense at low salaries. I think people are not revisiting the concept accurately at different income ranges.


Not sure how you'd get anywhere near $500,000 (employing a spouse and a couple of your kids offering them maxed-out matching contributions, too, maybe?) but I do suspect the most common way anyone approaches the 401k contribution limit is through kinda-shady family businesses in already-rich families. AFAIK you can't even hit 50% of the annual limit without nearly-unheard-of employer matching, because such a high proportion of the annual limit can only come from an employer—you can't contribute it yourself.

Still, without some real weirdness I'm not sure how you'd get near $500,000, even factoring in HSAs (primarily another tool for the already-well-off to avoid taxes—the trick is that if you put money in but never pay medical bills out of it you can save those receipts and get all that money you would have spent tax-free at retirement, while it's been growing all those years pre-tax like a normal retirement account) and using both IRAs and 401Ks.


When you attach your a single participant 401k to your own S-Corp (or to even just yourself as an individual), you can do maximum employer match alongside maximum employee contribution. This moves your max retirement contribution from $20,000 to $60,0000 as of time of writing. (you can also do the employee contribution exclusively with your W-2 employer, and if you have other sources of non-passive income you can just do all employee match for the other $40,000 into your own)

then you can also construct a Cash Balance plan, which adds a lot more and linked to your age, every year. ie. a 30 year old can contribute maybe $80,000 while a 65 year old can contribute maybe $450,000. Its not a "above age 50 catch up" like 401ks and IRAs have.

any cash amounts in any of these plans can be rolled over into whichever other kind of retirement plan is preferred.

so if you don't like compliance duties of a 401k, you can roll that into an IRA. If Cash Balance plan is too restrictive on investable assets, you can roll that into a 401k or IRA. You can roll any of this into the Roth products if you don't mind paying income tax that year.


Oh damn—good tricks, thanks, and I didn't realize you could do the 401k max-out thing as a sole proprietor.

Tax-advantaged retirement plans in the US really do seem structured to be nearly useless for normal employees, and very useful to those with a high incomes and a good deal of flexibility in how they structure their finances. I'd like to think that's an accident, but it's probably not.

[EDIT] Last bit not directed at you, just an observation. You gotta do stuff like this, if you can, or get screwed. Which sucks, but those are the rules.


well there is a populist push to get rid of contractors (California AB5, other states, Biden's plan), kind of ignoring that there are high earners running their own plans intentionally as opposed to someone relying on employer health insurance and paid leave

but fortunately I think that push is ignoring when an individual applies for the role as a single member LLC or other incorporated entity they control


I wasn't arguing against being an IT contractor long term. Tax benefits are very much clear to me.


One important thing to know is that people can say whatever they want, but it doesn't make it true.

Folks in business—especially sales—seem to do this a lot, where they say one thing as it's a firm rule, but it's actually not at all. It's probably super-effective against people who tend to take any statement by an authority figure as final, but in the end they're just some asshole saying whatever they like, they're not the arbiter of reality. You can't know the truth until you push back on it and see what happens.

If saying "yes" to a raise (or, rate change) is better than whatever risk they perceive from saying "no", they'll very likely agree to it, and you'll find out "contractors don't get raises" was just a self-serving lie.


Contractors get contract renewed, usually every year or so. Thats time for renegotiation, never hurts to bring competing job offer. Asking politely leaves money on table.

Being contractor for 4 or even 10 years is kind of fishy. Most countries have a law that converts temporary contractors into permanent employees after N years (4 in Ireland).


I really hate being an employee in EU. I don't want to be an employee. I want the flexibility and lack of those crappy "what do you want to do in 5 years" type of convos.

I know what I want to be and it's none of my client's business. I currently have to lie to my employer about "what I want to be", because there's an expectation.

What if my employer doesn't like the fact that I want to show off my feet on OnlyFans in 5 years, instead of being their "lead architect"?

I have literally moved out of Ireland to avoid being an employee.


There's a lot of contracting work in Ireland. What's your area? If it's around the data space I might be able to put you on touch with some people.


I live in NYC now, but thank you.

(Funny enough I am a data platform engineer)


Contracts with draconian terms such as those, are usually hard to enforce, and end up being just a way to scare you into compliance.

Try and look for an exit as soon as possible, don't look for ideal new jobs, just something that lets you live in as cost-saving a way as you can, to buy time to find an actual job and recuperate. Think: low-responsibility, low-pay, low-compromise.

Most of the advice you'll get here is to leave because that's about all you can do. Don't fight it, just try and do it ASAP.


I am not sure if I even can sue them

Considering you did all this voluntarily I don't think there's anything you can sue your employer for. They set the terms of your employment, you agreed to them and have been carrying them out, and they pay you. As far as everyone is concerned everyone in the contract is fulfilling their end of the bargain. The only thing that's wrong is that you're not happy with what you're being asked to do and yet you're still doing it.

The short term solution here is to talk to your manager. Tell them you're unhappy and that you're not doing the job you signed up for. The longer term solution is to find a new job.

Also the jurisdiction of my contract is UK...

If there's a jurisdiction clause in the contract that you signed that states any dispute will be settled in a UK court then this is correct, but if there isn't then either party can nominate where disputes are settled (usually this happens when the contract is signed..) However if you try to sue they'll immediately terminate your contract/employment which doesn't sound like it'd put you in a good position.

Also... you're not being "treated like a contractor". If you are a contractor that doesn't mean you have to put up with this level of bullshit. No one, contractor or employee, should take crap like this in their job. Don't stand for it. Speak up.


> Considering you did all this voluntarily I don't think there's anything you can sue your employer for. They set the terms of your employment, you agreed to them and have been carrying them out, and they pay you.

In Canada there's the legal concept of not being able to sign away your rights. Ie. if something is illegal in the first place, agreeing to it doesn't make it legal. The UK is probably similar.


>>In Canada there's the legal concept of not being able to sign away your rights. Ie. if something is illegal in the first place, agreeing to it doesn't make it legal.

There is also that concept in some US states. However, that does NOT mean that your rights are simply immediately enforceable. It is merely a ticket to file a lawsuit. Even in a state with very strong laws in this direction, and even if you can find an attny to do it affordably, it can be a VERY long process; e.g., from direct experience, 7 years and just getting to the appeals level to get that actually enforced on an employer who is determined to stiff the employee.

You really are far better off recognizing the toxic management and cutting your losses as early as possible. They will only fail sooner then.


Similar to the US. Just because someone calls you a contractor (but not really) doesn't mean you suddenly lose all rights. Misclassification is a huge no-no for the DoL.


Sure you can sue them. The employee contractor line is a big part of labour law, and can affect UK mandated legal protections and benefits. The only problem is that a labour lawyer starts at $400/hr. One way to get around this is to band together with other contractors in your organization and pool your money to purchase a lawyer. We typically call this a union. I was high up in my union and signed some very big cheques to lawyers.

Of course that's hard so you should just get a new job.


He doesn't need to sue. If his story is correct he has a large amount of leverage in a negotiation and just needs to use it.

1. He is a high performer and is solely responsible for at least one project of consequence.

2. His productivity numbers are at the top for his colleagues.

3. There are a number of things that will fall over if he is no longer there.

Right now the company is picking and choosing how they treat him because they think they can. All he has to do is get another offer of employment and tell them about it. Either they will renegotiate the contract under more favorable terms to retain him. Or he will find employment at a better company where he is valued for what he is actually worth. The company he's at now think they don't need to take any action because they believe he isn't a flight risk. Change that perception and things will be very different.


If his story is correct he has a large amount of leverage in a negotiation..

You can't negotiate if the opposing party is unreasonable, and by the sounds of it they definitely are.


Truly unreasonable people often only look unreasonable right up until the threat of actually losing one of their most valuable employees looks credible. Then they change their tune pretty quickly.

Either way if you are negotiating with the leverage to just walk away then you have placed yourself in a win/win scenario.


In my country one can report employers that treat contractors as employees to the customs agency (idk why that one) which may investigate the company and rectify the situation.

Given that the company doesn't have an office in the country the most likely outcome will be that they will just give all the employees in the country the option to move or get fired, though...

I also don't know how and if a local agency would have any way to enforce employment laws across borders.


You're a contractor - PERIOD.

Whenever people say "you'll be treated as an employee", that only means that you will not be excluded from team activities and decisions. That's my experience in both positions of hiring and being a contractor. It's practically to make sure that you still work as part of the team.

As for an annoying client - only than what is in your contract. If the contract says "deliver X" - then you may have to bite it. But your contract probably says "full time" or "40hrs per week"

I had a contract at a digital publisher in London, the boss was horrible... every morning I would place my phone with an 8 hour timer on my desk. I would pause it for lunch only. And once time ran out I straight up stopped working... get up and leave. Period.

If they're bad to you, then you either quit or execute only responsibilities listed in the contract.


"contractors don't get raises" Correct they negotiate contracts instead, when your contract is up demand an increase.

"I have to help and work unpaid overtime", incorrect you are a contractor the only thing you have to do is what is in your contract. If it doesn't specify "unpaid overtime" then clearly state that isn't in your contract so you aren't going to do it.


+1 - Never do free work. NE-VER!


So, you've been screwed with in several levels, and I think that there's very little chance you get any payback. It happens. Put it in the lessons learned column and move on.

More precisely, move on to looking for a new job. If you have been very productive and have had lots of responsibility, that can go a long way to improve your resume. Update it, and start hunting. As someone else suggested, "Drop productivity, but no engagement", and use the extra time to job search.

One particular tip: if they put such ridiculous terms in the contract, you should probably do all job searching in your own hardware (phone, computer). Just in case.


> They hired me as "contractor", but promised I would be treated as employee, to facilitate things legally.

In the US this is both common and irrelevant; if you're treated like an employee you are an employee. This isn't helpful to you OP, but if you, dear reader, hear this at a future job, recognize this as problematic and (to my layperson understanding) illegal.

If there's nothing you can do to improve your work situation, or if you must continue working while you improve your work situation, it's really important for you to divest your sense of self worth from your job performance, for the sake of your own mental health.

You are not the sum of your work, these people cannot tell you how "good" you are; they've lost your trust.


I did contracting (one person s corp) and this isn’t uncommon and I didn’t even avoid it as long as my rate reflected all the factors.

It sounds like you may want employee benefits and if so, get an employee job and stop contracting. If you like the company ask to apply for a permanent position. If you don’t, go elsewhere.

That being said, I liked contracting and got my own benefits, planned my own vacation, etc and factored all that into my rate. As a contractor, I only got paid for what I billed. And I didn’t get raises, but I would renegotiate my rate every year or so or just include step ups after certain time periods.

I don’t think your client’s request are unreasonable but these are all things you should negotiate before accepting the contract.

Legally, there are things that clients can’t specify with contractors. Practically, I frequently accepted specific hours and equipment to use and reflected that in my rate. The alternative is usually just quitting and finding other work. Although there are some famous cases of contractors suing and getting benefits of employees [0].

[0] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2589538/it-personnel-m...


Why hasn't anyone mentioned IR35?????

I am in the UK - it seems the company you are working for is in violation of the IR35 regulations (but I'm not entirely sure of what nuances there are given you are in another country). i.e. you are a contractor, but are being treated as a full time employee with none of the benefits of such. e.g. they 'should' be paying the government for National Insurance etc.

I have been contracting for 10+ years so know something of IR35 but have always made sure the contracts I sign are quite clear about me not being an employee etc - no long term contracts etc. So I'm not an expert here.

If they are violating IR35, which I really think they are, then you have quite a lot of power at your disposal if you can play things right. You can either get them to start respecting you (but it doesn't sound like that is the best idea because staying is a __bad idea__) or sue them or just turn them over to HMRC.

In any case, you should talk to a solicitor - get everything you can documented and well organized, then any good employment lawyer can tell you the cost/benefits of turning them over to HMRC / the authorities. Google IR35 and employment law / solicitors ... pick one that has a well designed website. Talking to them ought to be free for the first 1/2 hour (I would think) or you should be able to send an email with a good summary of the situation w/o incurring any costs.


It's very similar in the US. Calling someone a contractor is an age old tactic of shady businesses to try and skirt taxes.

OP should probably be talking to a solicitor that specializes in employment and possibly the labor department. Unpaid overtime is a huge no-no.


It sounds like the first thing you need to do is to admit to yourself that you made a mistake in accepting this contract and treat it as a learning experience. This is actually good news for you because it means you now know of at least a few different ways that unscrupulous people can take advantage of you. You now have a better understanding of what to avoid and what to ask for when signing a work contract.

For what it's worth, many of us have suffered through terrible working conditions at the start of our careers, mainly because we didn't know any better. You're definitely not alone here.

The definition of an "employee" vs "contractor" varies between countries (and there are gray areas in all) but you need to know those differences before you decide to take on another contracting position. In many countries, contractors cannot be ordered by the client to work certain hours or from a certain place unless it's essential to the work being required (e.g., a security guard).

It sounds like your current contact is not salvageable and I can just about 100% guarantee that any major pushback or legal action is not going to make your client suddenly decide to treat you like an adult. Your best bet is to move on, either with full-time employment and benefits, or continue contracting/freelancing but paying extra attention to the terms of the contract this time around.

If you decide to keep contracting, remember that you are essentially in business for yourself, and that you have to juggle all of the things involved in that including setting rates that allow for the overhead of paying other professionals for business services such as tax preparation, health insurance, a lawyer for contract writing/review, etc.


Just get another job....poorly treated...unlikely to materially improve...

If you are a contractor, then you can decide your bill rate and hours. If you are asked to work extra say that you need to be compensated and if they have sign off for the expense. Then send a bill...part of the problem here is that you did not maintain good boundaries and asked to be respected and get paid.


HN is very US centric. Get yourself some UK advice. Here's what appears to be a free helpline for employee rights issues:

https://www.gov.uk/pay-and-work-rights


This! The UK in particular is quite hot on the distinction between employee and contractor.

Even if you were treated as a full time employee the description of the work environment sounds completely unacceptable. I’d try and find a new job ASAP anyway.


Before doing what other people suggest, make sure to set up a new bank account as soon as possible (unless you've already done this). All money from this contract continues with the current bank, but everything else is in your new account. You can make periodic transfers between your old and new banks as you get the money paid to you.

If things go bad and they decide to try to pull money back (it sure sounds like something they'd try), you need to continue to be able to pay the rent and buy food. Your bank won't be on your side.


Contractors shouldn’t live paycheck to paycheck. Contractors should be earning more to cover their in-between periods. If you’re not being paid very well, it sounds like the company has got a great deal - they pay you less money and you have no job security.

I’d be keen to know what kind of company treats people like this so I can make sure I never do them a favour.


Lots of people are advising you to quit and look for another job. I’m assuming if you took this one then finding another isn’t that easy for you - as you would have picked a less onerous job to begin with. I think lean into the contracting aspect, just work your stated hours, don’t do unpaid overtime. This restarts negotiations without a forced confrontation. Overcommitting is just another way to get free work, requiring them to pay for it tends to fix that. The private correspondence is very likely unenforceable so I wouldn’t even worry about that. Just don’t do personal stuff on work infrastructure.

Then if you can, raise your rates to compensate for lack of holidays and promotion - part of being a contractor is setting your own rates.

Your options really depends on how much value you add to their organization or to another prospective organization.

Even if renegotiation with your current job fails it is good practice for you.


Leave, get a job somewhere else. Seems like an awful work environment. If you stay here, you'll ruin yourself. I know.


I can't endorse this comment enough. Look for a new job, please. Don't let them abuse you.


In the US they'd call this co-employment. You could sue and likely win.

https://www.mbopartners.com/blog/misclassification-complianc...

(I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice)


I don't see anything in the OP's statement that made it sound like their situation is one of co-employment.


> will never get a raise, because contractors don't get raises.

Contractors get raises all the time, what kind of BS is that? Contracting rates change, prices change. The guy is just being an asshole.

Don't bother with lawyers and suing, you'll never get anything out of it. Just use your current experience to look for a better job ASAP. Once you have an offer lined up, quit. Until then, don't stress about any complaints they lay on you - if they were unhappy, they'd fire you. Instead they promoted you to have more responsibilities. That means they are happy with your work - but won't tell you that because then you'd ask for more money. So, look for better place to work.


Start looking for a new gig asap.


Others have given the much better answer, which is to leave and get a better job somewhere else but I saw the company is based in the UK so I wanted to mention the UK deemed employment rules which changed last year. In short, the company may be responsible for paying tax and NI deductions, where's they likely weren't before April 2021 - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fee-payer-responsibilities-under....


Start looking for a new job.


> I wanted to quit, but I am living paycheck to paycheck

They have you exactly where they want you. It's up to you to find an out.


Move to Washington State and then sue them as a permatemp :)

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2589538/it-personnel-m...


I suspect that many, many remote, international workers will find themselves in this situation. And many many remote-first companies will pursue these tactics. This is the downside of the coming globalization of white-collar jobs due to remote being more culturally accepted in the USA.


If you're in India, and you can work out of an office in Hyderabad, shoot me an email (my username at gmail) with your resume/CV, as I'll be interviewing for multiple, full-time employee roles (with an "enterprisey" non-tech company) in the very near future.


Sounds like it's time to look for another job. And probably tighten down your finances and build up a little bridge fund.

In the meanwhile, just continue to do your best at your current job, but don't allow it to get inside your head and stress you out. And save time for interviews :-)


You might be able to obtain some UK-specific advice at https://old.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/ .


Yikes. It's inconscionable how you're being taken advantage of. Sorry to hear it. I recommend finding a new job|contract ASAP. Good luck!


Quit. The market is damn hot, what are you still doing there? :-P

ps. As other said, first find another position _then_ quit.


This seems like an "If you can't change your company, change your company" situation...


Name the place for the rest of us.


> They hired me as "contractor"

> and work unpaid overtime

You're a contractor. Contractors are paid hourly. If you're working extra hours, you should be getting paid for the extra hours, you just have to make sure to keep track of them.


When I was a contractor at a big company and the project was behind, they asked people to start working weekends. Employees were salaried and didn't get paid for the extra time. As a contractor, I tried to submit a report with "3 extra hours for saturday" and it was rejected - they said "We only pay by the day. Please re-submit with 8 hours, even if you only worked 3 hours".

Your setup is backwards and it's up to you to fix it. There are many things in your contract which are negotiable, but that all depends on your negotiating power.


gtfo


Are you replaceable? Do you own any significant part of code? If you are there for a long time, and company has high turn over, you may have an advantage.

There is no point to negotiate, or to sue them.

Start job seeking ASAP. Do not quit, but work less hard. Insert delays into your responses. Before you commit code, take 30 minutes to study some subject or seek job.

Drop productivity, but no engagement (that is metric that matters). Still answer client calls at 4 am, pretend you work 12 hours a day etc... They will shout at you for a while, but after couple of sprints, requirements will adjust and be less demanding.


There's one thing to add to it. If they are treating the OP like that, they rely on him being desperate. If they sense that he's trying to get out, they will fire him just to make a statement.

So any drop in productivity must be accompanied by a plausible and pitiable excuse. Like "I can't sleep that well after that car accident" or something similar (but never "I'm burnt out" or "I stopped giving a fuck").


I disagree, business that fire people "to make a statement" don't last. And it seems OP is just good at what he does, hence he will always have more work.

My opinion is that the company likes having OP in a desperate state because in doing so he won't have enough time to look for a job elsewhere.


Oh, that depends. If OP is critical to their business, they normally would not fire him. Except if he sets and example for other employees, so their productivity starts dropping as well. Or if part of the manager's compensation is the right to treat reports like shit and fire them on a whim, as long as stuff gets somewhat done (i.e. a non-asshole manager would ask for more pay). Or if their entire business model is to churn through naive people by using them while they are still productive, and quickly disposing of them as they approach burnout.


I disagree. Some companies just torture people, there is no evil plan behind it.

Some pitable excuse would just paint target on OP's back. Burnout is normal in companies with high churn, they have process to cul weak members... And OP does not have any holidays or health benefits, tough sh*t..

The whole point is to fly under radar, until OP finds new job. Detaching from company politics, staying invisible. Some excuses and more communication push you deeper, in oposite direction.

Also company probably has no real way to measure productivity. People who understands code base left long time ago. Managers are just paper pushers. The only information management has is from OP. Some excuses would be admission of slow down.

Ideally this productivity drop would be spred over several weeks, maybe after major holiday, reorganization or reassignment.


I've had this happen early in my career- worked permatemp as a junior and finding out what I'm allowed to do as a 1099, so I decided to set my own hours. Co-founder of the company wasn't happy about it. He hired me as a contractor and didn't like that I established my rules as a contractor. Odd.

Wasn't just me at this workplace, but all the individual contributors were as well. We saw the writing on the wall, that the co-founders were not interested in full-time conversions and turnover rate increased.

It actually made me question the legitimacy of software careers for a while, because I was caught in this illicit operation.


I think they call this quiet quitting


The term quiet quitting sounds like the brain child of some morally deprived reprobate in middle management who wants to abused employees for more than they're being compensated for




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