The sentiment here on HN is to never connect the TV to the Internet and instead use a digital media player or external streaming device. I wholeheartedly agree. But then several people mentioned wanting to update the firmware. If you'll never connect it to the Internet, then you should never update the firmware either. It goes against conventional wisdom, but updating the firmware in this situation is more likely to cause problems than to bring you desired improvements.
The firmware update might have stricter DRM controls; it could have a tricky new way to exfiltrate data out via your streaming box; maybe the firmware update itself contains some static ads; perhaps in the near future we'll have public wifi or free Google community wifi, and the new firmware will have the smarts to use that and bypass your wifi.
And these days, once you update the firmware, you often cannot revert back to earlier firmware.
Firmware updates may resolve HDMI compatibilities, though, and in my mind it's always worth the risk even if there's a 10% chance of improvement because HDMI reliability is terrible.
When I mounted my TV, I embedded a single HDMI cable, a single cat5e cable, and a single optical cable in the wall. Conduit wasn't an option due to the age and construction of the wall, so changing it would require power tools and drywall mud.
I have a sound bar rather than a receiver because it makes my wife happy. The sound bar works best with ARC. Optical works too, but power and volume isn't synchronized.
I have an NVIDIA shield mounted behind the TV because the TV's software stack got too lethargic, and the TV's built-in decoder has silicon bugs that break video in Netflix, and break surround sound in everything but Netflix.
Surprisingly, everything works reliably about 95% of the time. It's unfortunate that I consider that a win. I just added a 4-1 HDMI splitter with ARC passthrough in order to get a Blu-ray player back in the mix, and it was boring!
I wish I was in your shoes! I also had no issues with HDMI until recent years--but HDMI-eARC is so buggy on Samsung TVs, especially when being used with surround sound or a sound bar. I had no problems before I moved to a surround system/beyond ARC, but with eARC I need to reboot the TV at the wall once every two weeks or it will "forget" it's plugged into a sound system, it's very annoying. It was far worse when I first got the TV and updates have improved it somewhat, but it's still very annoying. I don't hold out hope for Samsung updating the TV for much longer, my last one from them they abandoned it after the first year. :/
I have a 5 year old samsung 4k with a samsung sound bar. ARC does not work reliably. It did but just stops working. I have to power cycle the TV. Change HDMI cables etc. All the normal I am an engineer, made check list, swapped parts in controlled manor stuff. Even tried another soundbar that works fine on another set. Googling tells me other have this issue and samsung does not care as it is to old (it is likely sw issue). TV is going to be replaced with much more expensive Sony as they still seem to take pride in their product quality. Oh as to the ads, never hook TV up to internet. I use an AppleTV and it just works.
I want ARC/CEC to work as I want a single remote. You loose that when using optical.
If optical works reliably, you could possibly leave both HDMI and optical plugged in to the sound bar. CEC volume control and power seems to still work with my sound bar when set to the optical input.
My setup currently has an audio drop out every few minutes. It seems to happen over both ARC and optical, though, so it's presumably just the Nvidia Shield being buggy. The UI bugs out too lately. I've had various forms of audio drop outs on that TV since at least 2020. It could be the TV corrupting the passthrough I guess. I'm not going to buy a whole new TV just to test that hypothesis.
From what source though? Antenna broadcast? Otherwise it’s better to route through the set-top box if at all possible, and that can output directly to the sound bar.
OP said they have both an Nvidia Shield and a Blu-Ray player so there is no single set-top box. Running from the TV means you catch all audio output no matter the source.
Yeah, the only device with a "passthrough" is the TV itself, via ARC. If I had a 4k capable receiver instead of the sound bar, then it could act as the hub and output everything to the TV.
Previously I did have a receiver, and no Nvidia Shield device. The TV has Android TV built in to it, so I still relied on ARC most of the time. The TV's built in functionality got too buggy (borked video, audio dropouts during loud scenes) and slow to use day to day, so I added the Shield. My receiver didn't support 4k, though, so I plugged straight into the TV and used ARC still. I since replaced the receiver and all the mid-size speakers with a 5.1 wireless soundbar to free up shelf space in that room. Since I know you're curious, the receiver got paired with a 1080p plasma TV in a guest house where it can retire with dignity, and the speakers got moved to a bedroom, connected to a pre-HDMI receiver and a cheap Bluetooth dongle.
Me too. I just put a digital TOSLink cable between my TV and the soundbar. Works a treat and it's funky knowing that audio that was produced, recorded digitally, sent across the internet, decoded by my computer, pumped to a TV and then re-encoded into laser light before being turned back into a digital electrical signal and then converted into an analog electrical signal and then played through speakers is pretty amazing.
Sure, the "DVI" subset of HDMI generally works everywhere, although I've had signal integrity issues from cheap cables in the past.
It's all the other stuff that's supposed to seamlessly integrate your components. Audio Return Channel so sound makes it to the speakers regardless of where a source is plugged in, Consumer Electronics Control so you can use one Bluetooth remote for everything, automatic power synchronization, etc.
Even 4k is a little weird, with different HDMI versions supporting different frame rates. I have a Yamaha receiver from 2014 or so that doesn't support 4k, but claims to "support" it; all you have to do is turn off the receiver and it will pass the signal through!
This thread has motivated me to try and tackle my current audio drop out problem. Every 5-10 minutes, the audio drops out for a second. I'm currently updating the firmware on my soundbar as a shot in the dark...
Well, I tried a new HDMI topology and that didn't improve things. I tried intentionally mis-configuring the TV to break ARC but still have CEC power and volume control of my sound bar, but the sound bar still defaults to ARC on power up rather than SPDIF.
I've given up on ARC completely in my setup. The Nvidia Shield remote can control sound bar volume via IR. I just successfully watched a full movie without any drop outs. Also, I may be imagining it, but the Shield feels more responsive. It seems like it must be the TV's fault. Don't buy a Sony I guess.
I learned this with my router. I updated the firmware thinking it was the smart thing to do, security fixed and all that, but instead I was greeted with ads for their other products and them wanted to shove their stupid phone app in my face to interact with the router.
I then installed OpenWRT and said nuts to using proprietary router firmware.
> perhaps in the near future we'll have public wifi or free Google community wifi, and the new firmware will have the smarts to use that and bypass your wifi.
Xfinity WiFi has been around for at least 8 years. Amazon sidewalk has been around for over a year. Wanna bet those are or will be used by your smart TV producers to connect them to the internet via wifi?
What makes me think this will never happen is that
- Open Wi-Fi networks are a thing of the past. There hasn't been any around me in a residential area for a long time now. Businesses and workplace lobbies, more likely, though.
- No one is going to just give Samsung free Internet except the hapless consumer by supplying Wi-Fi credentials.
- Samsung might make a deal with providers, but it would have to have unique credentials embedded in its OS and firmware, and I doubt Samsung has the ability to keep that totally secure.
Think about it. If you could get free, anonymous Internet with credentials in a Samsung TV, crackers would be all over that - they'd be searching every crook and nanny for exploits, desoldering NAND and sniffing busses for encryption keys, connecting with Chinese friends to get original datasheets, etc.
Even if Samsung embedded an LTE/5G SIM, eSIM, whatever, it would be hacked to bits. "Get model X of samsung TV, get free Internet with this Linux application". It's not realistic for there to be a network connection that you don't know about, pay for, and have your name attached to.
Of course the p2p network interface that shows up on the Netflix diagnostic screen is concerning, though.
Now if cellular providers start selling TVs, such as AT&T, Verizon, etc. bundling Internet with them, then it can happen.
> No one is going to just give Samsung free Internet except the hapless consumer by supplying Wi-Fi credentials.
I think it's implied that Samsung would pay Amazon for Sidewalk access.
> Samsung might make a deal with providers, but it would have to have unique credentials embedded in its OS and firmware, and I doubt Samsung has the ability to keep that totally secure.
I don't think this is as hard a problem as you're making it sound. Each TV ships with a serial number, let's suppose; it tries to handshake with the Sidewalk network. Sidewalk phones home to Amazon, Amazon talks to Samsung, Samsung says "yes, we sold that S/N recently and it has never connected before, here's its public key".
So if I can spoof communication with that serial number on another device, I get free Internet. Same concept as MAC filtering not being really secure because I can just change MAC addresses in my packets.
Find a remote vulnerability, or find the device on the circuit board where it's stored, connect a reader to it, and dump it. Not trivial, but not impossible. The TV software just has to have one mistake, and TV companies aren't security experts.
All of the popular embedded platforms have had scores of vulnerabilites - Qualcomm, Android, WebOS, etc. - patched over time, new ones found etc.
Heck, it even took Microsoft more than one try to start to get it right. An interesting story is Microsoft attempting to protect its first game platform--the original Xbox from the early 2000's. There were numerous security protections and all were bypassed - from encrypted boot code to a device-unique hard drive key stored in EEPROM.
Microsoft got better and smarter with the 360--this time with unique keys and eFuses in the CPU but it was still eventually bypassed--not after the effective lifetime of the platform though.
Honestly I do not think Samsung would be concerned about the single-digit number of people who manage to get free internet this way.
If you really wanted it to be secure, you could use a TPM instead of a private key in memory, but that's overkill IMO. Who wants to take their TV apart in exchange for free crappy internet?
Every TV ships with a non-unique secret key and an agreement with some major internet service provider which specifies that accounts using that key will gain network access but only to a specific list of IP addresses that host or proxy firmware updates and advertising content.
[edit - to be clear, I'm not saying that this is what Samsung is doing, I'm just describing a plausible way how this might get done]
Everyone has said stuff like this but there has been zero proof of TVs connecting to wifi like this on their own. If you have that proof please share it.
>> Wanna bet [Broad Company Wifi Networks] are or will be used by your smart TV
> What makes me think this will never happen...
The comment suggests that the behavior of auto-connecting to wifi is infeasible for technical reasons. My comment and the one below it show that this is technically feasible.
I've been to two medical facilities and a large regional hospital in the last week where there were open wifi networks with no portals. My apartment building operates an open wifi network for guests so we don't have to bother giving out passwords to visitors. An airport I visited last month has wide open wifi. A see ads on transit buses all the time stating that the bus has wifi. I suspect that is wide open because the transit agency didn't want to deal with tech support.
It's pretty common for public networks to still have a captive portal to get the user to view an ad or click "I agree" before actually granting full connectivity.
Fully open wifi that didn't require posting to an http or https endpoint was never common in the first place.
Consumer routers are now shipped pre-configured with a password on the network so random joe who bought his router at best buy or got it from his ISP doesn't accidentally provide free wifi to his 20 closest neighbors.
Meanwhile out of the box every single xfinity provided modem/router combo provides by default an open network with no password that allows any other xfinity subscriber to access the internet via your device. They have 18 million such hotspots throughout the US. Give the expected usage of a few MB per year this would seem to be an easy ask and easily sold the end user as a feature not a cost.
Likewise nearly every major business that serves customers food refreshments or produces to buy on site provides wifi that requires only that you push a simple response to open it up. This can be and in fact is already automated on your phone for example.
Instead of referring to open wifi I would redirect the discussion to negotiable connections and they are everywhere.
And by "residential areas," I assume you mean "the very specific residential area where I live in my neighborhood, in my city, in my county, in my state, in my nation" since there is simply no way for you to have made a detailed assessment of the availability of open wifi for the entirety of the rest of the planet, or even for the small subset of its people who are on HN.
But thanks for informing me, and the 300 other people who reside in my building that we don't live in a residential area.
I'm sure there's something in the water that's driving my neighbours towards protected-by-default wifi, and not the defaults with which their ISP-provided routers are shipped with.
Yes! There's less focus on crypto part of it, and more emphasis on connecting people and communities as a WISP, but underneath it all, Althea is doing just that.
> Even if Samsung embedded an LTE/5G SIM, eSIM, whatever, it would be hacked to bits. "Get model X of samsung TV, get free Internet with this Linux application". It's not realistic for there to be a network connection that you don't know about, pay for, and have your name attached to.
Kindles and cars have had those for years and people haven't torn those apart to come up with free internet.
Your connection could be limited to receiving ads and firmware updates, incredibly slow,and be limited to a key stored in hardware both near impossible to retrieve and nearly worthless if you retrieved it. This connection would only be used if a primary connection was unavailable.
You could basically use 10MB per 10 customers per year and the only question is do you make more ensuring everyone gets ads to justify the peanuts paid to people like comcast or at worst the cost of a chip that has a cellular modem vs just wifi.
The problem is that we're at a point in the evolution of TVs where robust support for HDMI-CEC (especially in combination with ARC/eARC) isn't guaranteed; but might be something you can get later through a firmware update.
When you finally decide to shell out for a sound bar, and after hooking it up, your TV now suddenly takes 30 seconds to flicker to life from sleep, you'll really want that firmware update.
(It's similar to where we were ~5 years ago with motherboards and NVMe boot support. The motherboard had the M.2 socket; but whether the NVMe device showed up in the boot options was up to chance. Often it'd only work in legacy mode but not UEFI mode. But, after a few-months-later motherboard firmware update, things would begin to work the way you'd expect.)
This is good advice. I kept my 4k Vizio offline until updating the firmware on a whim. The update broke the ability to run 1080p@60hz from my PC, making it effectively useless for normal use. The annoying part about the panel is that it was advertised as 4k but only works at 30hz at that resolution. Cheap, so should have figured.
Not a TV, but my monitor is 3440x1440. However, it only supports 30Hz at that resolution over HDMI since it has an older HDMI version. It only supports 3440x1400 at 60Hz over DisplayPort.
So, if your TV has any other inputs, might want to try those too.
Do you have links to blogs that show this happening, I see plenty of hearsay, but I know my LG doesn’t attempt to my honeypot wifi, I’d love to see proof.
Samsung (Dacor) discloses this behavior in their fridge manual; it says it will mesh with Samsung TVs to better target ads.
I’m not about to buy a Samsung set to find out what it actually does in practice. The fridge has deep learning object classifiers and internal cameras; I assume that is a big part of its ad targeting capability.
Note that the fridge has demand response / energy use time shifting features that don’t work unless it is connected to the internet.
You know all those stories about weird little shops run by suspicious characters but filled with incredible items that end up being cursed. That's every single shop right now. All of our technology is cursed. They will bring you great things, as promised, but always at some hidden price because those items exist to serve a dark master.
Maybe the targeting works the other way around. Those refrigerators have cameras. Maybe a little bit of machine learning to figure out what you buy and play targeted ads based on what's in your fridge or what used to be in your fridge but isnt currently.
>demand response / energy use time shifting features that don’t work unless it is connected to the internet.
I don't understand. What extra info does it need from the internet to keep the food at the right temperature, other than just the current temperature inside the fridge?
Maybe not straight up arrested, but I think I recall a case in the past where legal action was taken over someone using a restaurant's free WiFi everyday while not being a customer (he used it in his car in the parking lot). Like the network is open but technically you need permission to connect to it (a sign at the airport saying that free WiFi is available at this SSID, or the restaurant stating that WiFi is available to all paying customers counts as permission). Obviously very few of these cases will be prosecuted, but I would be very concerned if my smart devices were connecting to open networks automatically without my consent.
So far, my experience with Samsung products is that they're really badly put together in my experience. In the past, I've had multiple Samsung Note Smartphones (changed every 2-3 years because they would stop functioning), two Samsung smart TVs (latest one that's still in use is one whose wifi module stopped functioning after a firmware update), and a Samsung 27-inch monitor (unstable connectivity to computer).
All the Samsung products were poor experiences one way or another.
I've replaced my last Samsung Note with an (my first) iPhone (that has lasted 6-7 years since and is still going!); and replaced the monitor with a Dell one (none of my current or previous Dell & Philips monitors ever gave issues!).
Hearing how some Samsung TVs now comes with ads feels like a new low for the user experience. I'm personally avoiding Samsung products until things change.
I stay on top of device firmware updates in order to stay current on security patches, lest bad folks come crawling through the connection. I assume that's the "conventional wisdom" spoken of here. But if the TV never goes anywhere near a network...
If it's not a networked device, then the FW update better have enhancements that benefit me, the user, and not Samsung. Otherwise, GTFO with your crab bucket of new bugs.
Aah, the ever-present, nebulous and unlisted "bug fixes and security enhancements".
...oh, and more ads (not mentioned in the changelog).
...and feature removals (not mentioned in the changelog).
...oh, and you can't downgrade (not mentioned in the changelog).
Firmware updates are fine, but it should definitely be illegal to not allow a device to be returned by a consumer to the precise functionality it had at the time of purchase.
I can't believe people have been brainwashed to accept this as normal.
I'm stuck in a similar boat. Expensive TV now trying to steel my attention when I turn it on because my 12yo thought they were being helpful by connecting to the internet. Was just thinking about trying a factory reset. 30s of "look at our apps" followed by 30s "update your software." I love the picture quality and HATE the "smart" features.
Obviously most users won't be able to do this, but this is exactly the type of reason I use OpenWRT on my RPi-based router. I have a firewall rule that prevents the TV from communicating with anything in the WAN zone. I can still have the TV on the Wi-Fi and still use features like Airplay.
I disable the firewall rule if I want to try updating the TV firmware.
That breaks the built in chromecast, right (since the TV is the one fetching the stream), but I suppose you could plug in a regular chromecast dongle if that matters to you.
Google may well be violating their privacy policy which specifically claims they don't do that, but I don't think it's likely; they run a pretty tight ship RE legal messaging, and _someone would have noticed_ since all you have to do is watch a video on a non-google property and watch the network traffic.
> my cable provider clT out refused to give me the PPP / etc details or I have to go find an RPi with adsl io.
In the USA and perhaps other countries the cable provider is required to let you use your own DOCSIS modem. The list of modems that work with their system has to be on their web site.
They don't want to do this because they are all shitheads and also because they want to charge you "rent". But TBF I imagine it's also because it's easier to debug customer support calls when they manage the whole connection (e.g. GF's kids complain that "WiFi is down" when they mean the cable connection is down).
Sadly, enforcement of this directive is up to each country's own regulator, and as the map in the above link shows, only a few countries have actually enshrined this in their national laws.
You can chain routers. disable the isp router's wifi, or just ignore it. Then place your router of choice on the LAN side of the ISP's router as the its Ethernet client. Make up a new subnet of your choice on your router's LAN side and use its wifi and DHCP.
See if your cable modem has a pass-through mode. This disables the NAT, DHCP, etc and passes the IP address of the cable side of the modem through to one of the ethernet jacks. Then you plug your own router in to that and do your own NAT, DHCP, firewall, etc. I know Arris used to have this, haven't checked recently.
My current ISP has the cable modem completely locked down. No control over DHCP, no punching service ports through the NAT for home servers. Also they've got me double NATed.
Add a second router and put it in your ISP router’s DMZ. You shouldn’t have trouble with double nat since all traffic will get forwarded on to your “real” router.
Hmm I like just buying 4k displays with no smart features at all. 65 sceptre works great.. is just a display (does need a sound bar as built in speakers are poor).
Sure, but that’s not a very high-end panel. When Samsung and LG make almost all the best panels, it’s tricky to avoid if you aren’t willing to sacrifice picture quality.
I also considered maybe trying to import a TV from the EU - do they have stronger privacy laws that would prevent this? Panasonic makes some VERY nice OLED TV's out of the country
I had a Panasonic TV about ten years ago that refused to play any content off my home server unless it could talk to its own servers over the internet first.
And that sentiment is soon going to be obsolete, once 5G is everywhere and your smart TV can connect to the internet without asking for your wifi password.
I have an untrusted segment of my network I connect my tv to. If I streamed from something else, I would have to put that device also in an untrusted segment and dedicate it to that task but that means more time spent admining a device that no one is paying me to admin.
This has been discussed previously and one of the major issues is that many devices require internet connectivity to complete initial setup before they can be used.
A piHole fixed issues I had with my Samsung smart TV. No more ads in the homescreen, and there’s a way to disable analytics deep into the TV’s setting menu.
I'm not so sure. I've been using a projector as a TV for something like four years straight: no TV at home, only a projector. As a bonus the living room becomes a home cinema. I didn't see much downsides. Zero issue. No ads. Cheaper than a TV for a much wider diagonal and a more "cinema'ish" picture too (I hate it when movies look like cheap sitcoms on modern TVs).
And as many of these are made to show slides and whatnots in corporate settings, ads are a big no-no.
I think more people should seriously consider that option.
EDIT: well I remember one issue... I decided to fix it and it took longer than the time it'd have take to hook a TV. But I did it exactly once, used some fishtape to pull HDMI cables in the system ceiling and family was good to go for years.
> I hate it when movies look like cheap sitcoms on modern TVs
This really is the trope about LCD TVs that will not die. I blame the manufacturers.
Yes, it looks terrible. It’s called motion smoothing (or something like it) and it’s often switched on - for reasons I cannot possibly fathom - when TVs are in demo mode and/or in the showroom.
And it is absolutely trivial to disable. Most any modern TV is either fully capable of playing 24p / 30p and 60p at native frame rate, or playing 60p at native, 30p at half-rate and 24p at 3:2 pulldown, in each case without any interpolated frames muddying the native presentation. It looks perfectly great (while 3:2 pulldown is perceived as juddery by some, that’s an issue any projector incapable of either 120hz or native 24p would also share).
There are loads of legitimate reasons to prefer projectors over flat panels (and vice versa); motion smoothing is not one of them.
I've been using a projector in my bedroom because I do occasionally want to watch something while laying in bed, but don't generally like a TV in the room.
Potential problems, all fixable:
Can't see it during the day or when using the lights.
Had to run power and data to the ceiling.
Lower resolution for the price.
Can't use the wall for anything else or need to install a screen; paint choice a potential issue (bad color, too glossy). (Also need a wall without windows that is large enough.)
That said, the pros vastly outweigh the cons for me and projectors have gotten cheaper and better in the near decade since I installed mine.
You sound like somebody going on about how vinyl is better than CDs. Sure, projectors give you that "authentic" cinema look, in the sense of bad color reproduction, especially being unable to show dark blacks like OLEDs can.
The "cheap sitcom" look is objectively better. With the right filters you can reproduce the cinema look; but nobody who isn't already used to it would want to to that, unless you are going for a specific "old school" style.
The "cheap sitcom" look is objectively worse, but it can be disabled on every TV I've encountered so far. If I bought a TV that didn't allow me to disable it I'd return it as defective.
>I hate it when movies look like cheap sitcoms on modern TVs
That has nothing to do with "TVs" in general and more the software smoothing settings that are on by default. Properly configured (takes literally minutes or less one time) using a website like rtings.com for the optimal settings, a TV will look better than a similar quality projector every time, and in greater lighting situations. There's a reason why projectors aren't popular and it's not because people forget about them. Movies on my OLED TV look incredible, better than a cinema frankly.
Since we're talking Samsung, there's a picture mode called FILMMAKER (weirdly all caps I know) that promises to not do any 'smart' fuckery. And I guess there's an alliance of other manufacturers too who offer the same mode with the same name.
A big cons for me is that it's useless on bright room, as who prefer bright room. Darker room is fine to watch movie sometimes, but I just buy a TV to cover all use case.
Not 100% silent, but lots of new projectors are based on LED/laser lamps, which produce a lot less waste heat.
Plus there's now ultra-short-throw projectors that sit in the front of the room, rather than above / behind you.
Ultra-short-throw also has the advantage that you can use from-below lenticular screens. This means that ambient room light affects them a lot less, since they refelect light mostly coming from only where the projector is.
Sadly, "smart TV" has infected projectors as well. But maybe not as bad as normal TVs. Most projectors still have dumb inputs that work fine.
I got one of these from work, it's not a great solution. First, they're more expensive than regular TVs. Bigger issue though is that there's no remote so changing the volume can be a pain in the ass.
Just give me my Netflix, Disney+, Amazon Prime, HBO Max,...
All of which are available on an AppleTV, and I assume other less-intrusive devices. TFA comes to that conclusion in the last paragraph, but just in case anyone didn't make it that far. And then, as everyone on this page is going to say, never let that TV anywhere near a network connection. Why anyone would go to the effort of dicking with a pi-hole cat-and-mouse game is beyond me. Plug in a box, remove network access to the TV, watch your shows.
...even if it duplicates all the streaming app functionality in the TV itself.
I don't know, Samsung's fuckery aside, does anyone seriously think that using the duplicate app on the Samsung is going to be anywhere nearly as pleasant a UX as the AppleTV? IOW, use the AppleTV (or Roku, or whatever) regardless just for the better experience.
> IOW, use the AppleTV (or Roku, or whatever) regardless just for the better experience.
I've never used AppleTV. Does it come with ads and a bunch of data collection too? Roku collects massive amounts of data and has ads. For example:
"Roughly twice per second, a Roku TV captures video “snapshots” in 4K resolution. These snapshots are scanned through a database of content and ads, which allows the exposure to be matched to what is airing. For example, if a streamer is watching an NFL football game and sees an ad for a hard seltzer, Roku’s ACR will know that the ad has appeared on the TV being watched at that time. In this way, the content on screen is automatically recognized, as the technology’s name indicates. The data then is paired with user profile data to link the account watching with the content they’re watching." (https://advertising.roku.com/resources/blog/insights-analysi...)
I only exclusively use AppleTV and have for a number of years. No ads, and you're asked whether you want to share data for analytics on setup (like any apple device).
I'm not aware of any intrusive data collection like screenshots you mention even if you do opt in to share data.
>Does it come with ads and a bunch of data collection too?
Even with AppleTV+ it contains ads for other content on other services that you have to pay for. You might be able to buy it through AppleTV and watch it there I guess. I don't know I've never tried.
Sort of. First, you can turn off a bunch of auto-play previews and the fact that it shows you stuff you haven't added to your "Up Next" list via the System Prefs. I have done this successfully and I no longer get any animated previews of videos I'm not interested in.
The AppleTV app (which you don't need to use) itself shows what shows you're watching and if you scroll down or across the categories at the top shows you what shows are on all channels it knows about. That's significantly less problematic than showing ads for arbitrary products. It does know what you've watched because it does stuff like launching the apps for you, and I wouldn't be surprised if they use that data internally. I've never seen an outright ad on my AppleTV other than when watching videos on an app that has ads (YouTube, for example).
I have found the ability to see all shows on all channels at once very useful for deciding if I want another service or not. I also sometimes see a show is available on service X, decide I don't want that service, and check to see if I can buy or rent just that one show (or movie) on iTunes. The answer is yes as often as not. Very handy!
The main menu/home page does not serve ads. It just lists your installed apps.
Using the Apple TV app (which aggregates listings from most services, Netflix being the notable exception) will list shows on services you might not already pay for. But, you don’t have to use the Apple TV app - you can just go straight to the apps you know you want.
> The apps are actually mostly identical from experience.
What's bizarre is that the YouTube app on a Google Android TV is markedly worse than YouTube on the Apple TV. For example, switching Google accounts doesn't work properly and takes more clicks even when it works!
Similarly, subtitles in several apps in Google Android TV have eye-searing maximum HDR white brightness, and this cannot be altered. The NetFlix app for example has this issue. On Apple TV the NetFlix app subtitles use a normal level of brightness.
The Google TV UI is 1080p upscaled to 4K so it is blurry. It's also so dark that it is difficult to see during the daytime. This cannot be adjusted. The Apple TV interface in comparison is gorgeous.
My impression is that Google doesn't have a single employee in their entire organisation that cares about product quality or consumer needs in any sense. They just want to control televisions to shove their ads down your throat. They have no business interest in anything else. The second they achieved control and could start selling ads, the mission was accomplished. The rest doesn't matter.
Expecting anything else at this point is a lot like a battered wife saying "deep down he loves me".
>What's bizarre is that the YouTube app on a Google Android TV is markedly worse than YouTube on the Apple TV.
It's a longstanding thing with Google that its iOS apps are better than its Android apps. Google Voice for iOS, for example, got certain functionality years before Android did.
I also just use the Apple TV remote for my tv and it works fine to turn the tv on and off and to adjust the volume, so I never have to touch the TV remote. However, even if I did want to do something like change inputs often I could exclusively use the TV remote and it also works just fine to control the Apple TV.
Mileage may vary. My tv is older but does seem to have good CEC support and the newest Apple TV supports CEC.
Some devices do not support CEC and it seems others only partially support CEC so when that happens one thing, like the power on and off command, doesn’t work and you end up having to use a second remote anyway, which defeats the whole point.
On top of that, people who used the old Apple TV remote with the touchpad might not even realize that there's a new one that fixes all the bad design issues of the old one.
I have an AppleTV connected to my Samsung TV, and almost never use the Samsung remote. The AppleTV remote's on/off button switches everything together (through CEC I believe) so in everyday usage I only ever need a single remote.
What's the second remote for? ATV remote drives everything.
Even if you have, say, an PS5 or Xbox Series X plugged to same TV, the ATV remote screen button causes TV to take over from console and turning on a console controller causes it to take over from ATV.
At which point I'm personally content to go read a book (on my network-connected Amazon Kindle, of course). But I'm one of dozens, unfortunately for the rest of you because Samsung won't care about cranky old men and their books, they don't spend money anyway.
We have a 45" from ~2013, I used to connect it to the internet in the early days when I didn't have a Chromecast. The UI is underwhelming, and the only times I've used the smart TV features was when a streaming device wasn't working.
I've gone through 4 streaming devices, and I think that even if I get a new TV, I'm likely to continue with streaming devices, unless that TV runs stock Android TV. Even then, it'll reach a point where the firmware is no longer updated.
Yeah good luck with that. I did the same. Then all the streaming devices stopped working suddenly. Turns out that there was suddenly an HDCP compatibility issue which obsoleted the TV instantly.
", does anyone seriously think that using the duplicate app on the Samsung is going to be anywhere nearly as pleasant a UX as the AppleTV?"
I in general think the Apple UX experience is pretty awful across all their products with Apple TV being the worse of all. I have used the Samsung interface and it is bad but I still dislike the Apple TV more.
I can't really imagine what you believe is so bad about the Apple TV UX. It's a basic grid of available apps and videos, with an easy swipe to access video settings (subtitles, language, etc). Not complicated at all.
Most streaming boxes have the same basic interface... my usual issue is when one is laggy (e.g. TV built-in, Roku, Chromecast, etc). The Apple TV is buttery smooth, fast to scrub through videos, and never feels limited by its CPU.
It suffers from the same issue as all Apple devices, a lack of discoverability. It is even worse on the Apple TV given the lack of buttons on the remote.
I much prefer my Roku TVs and don't have any issue with lag which bothers me.
Yesterday's news. ATV4K remote couple years now has all the buttons and no track pad (well, you can swipe in middle of the round OK button, but you wouldn't).
I like Apple TV. The one thing that consistently frustrates me is pressing the mic button at the wrong "screen" will take you out of your current app and bring you to the Apple TV+ search container. Yes, it's not hard to navigate back to where you were but it's quite simple to accidentally press the mic button at the wrong screen.
As you can see from the other replies, you are wrong to not love the locked-down Apple way of doing things from the bottom of your heart. Science has proven that people who are given options are less happy than those who never had options to begin with.
I too am in the wrong group, like you. I was finally talked into becoming an owner of an Apple device for the first time in my life about a year ago (an iPhone), and I have hated its interface with increasing passion every day since. I hate getting rid of electronics before the natural end of their lives, because I'm cheap and I'm environmental and I'm obstinate, but I may actually do it in this case.
But anyway it is all right, everything is all right, the struggle is nearly finished.
That feeling of absolute helplessness when trying to deal with any issue on your Apple device, you must embrace. It is by design. Your helpless feeling will some day be transformed into a warm feeling of being nannied, which will eventually feel maternal, and that will eventually become love.
We will win the victory over ourselves, and we will love Big Brother Apple.
You're probably in the minority with that opinion. Apple UX is wildly renowned for being great and Apple TV is no worse than any of the competitors. The TV input interface is just awkward in general but being able to use an iPhone to automatically fill in passwords, authenticate purchases, or just use as a second remote is smooth as butter. It's another example of how Apple products are better together within the ecosystem. But even if you don't have an iPhone, the newest remote is extremely good. One of the best products they've made in recent years.
The Apple UX on all devices lacks discoverability which annoys me to no end.
I can use my phone to fill in passwords and as a second remote on my Roku TV without needing to be locked in to the eco system of a single vendor. Haven't used the current remote but the previous one was an atrocity.
The only hidden gestures left on ATV4K are tap-tap home to show carousel of recent apps, and swipe up to force quit (same as iPhone gestures on iPhones or iPods w/ a home button). Everything else in ATV UI is giant buttons on screen, real buttons on remote.
> use my phone to fill in passwords
Also, 1Password (among others including keychain) works great on ATV, and happily fills in passwords for, e.g., HBO+, from your laptop logins. Any input field, you can input from another device and 1Password into those on the device which inputs it on ATV.
>Yet Apple devices are usable and enjoyed by both young techies and old grandparents and all groups in between.
And many of them don't know the features they could be using and enjoying but aren't because they aren't discoverable.
>I can use my phone to fill in passwords and as a second remote on my Roku TV
>Mind explaining how?
The Roku app allows you to fill passwords via your phone and use the phone as a remote for your Roku. I can also use Roku's private listening feature to redirect its audio to my phone allowing me to listen using the headphones connected to my phone. Roku also has a remote available with a wired headphone jack which automatically redirects the audio to it when headphones are connected to the jack.
For comparison, you can access the remote from anywhere within iOS by opening Control Center and a notification with a text field automatically appears when there is a text input on the Apple TV or you need to authenticate with Face ID. No app required. You can also output audio to AirPods and it prompts you automatically if you are watching something and you put them in your ears. Works seamlessly. Is this lock in or is this 1+1=3?
My Apple TV is happily showing me ads when watching Amazon Prime Video. So it's up to the app anyway - if Amazon wants to bundle LOTR:ROP with ads, they will do it on any box/platform.
I own this exact model -- the QN90A, though in a smaller size -- and have had exactly the same experience.
The most maddening advertisement is the one that is forcibly inserted in the menu between the apps and the settings. Using the remote, you must literally click past an ad to switch inputs.
You ... must ... click ... past ... an ... ad ... to ... switch ... inputs. Every time.
Unbelievable for a TV that costs this much. I almost returned it, but as the author notes, the alternatives have worse picture quality and often aren't any better in the ad department.
Likewise. I used to mostly buy Samsung. My latest TV was an LG OLED. Not only I find webOS infinitely more usable than anything I've seen on Samsung TVs, but the image quality is excellent and even the built-in speakers are acceptable after I disabled the crappy AI-assisted stuff that makes it all sound like it's reverberating in a dumpster.
I have a soundbar since before I bought this TV. It does sound better than the built-in speakers but it started acting up recently (volume going up or down every minute or so for no reason). I tried resetting it, re-flashing it, etc but nothing worked. It doesn't happen always either and I haven't figured out a pattern.
I decided to stop using it and started looking for better soundbars. Eventually I will get a 5.1 or 7.1 system but for the moment the TV speakers are more than acceptable for everything I do - movies, TV, games -- I don't use the TV for music. For now though, the speakers are sufficient. They don't sound too bad. To be fair, there's not much reason they should since there's enough space where they're mounted for decent sized cans.
I'm pretty sure I have ads on my LG C1 on my input switch screen. Maybe there is a way to turn it off, but I tried (for all of two minutes) and couldn't find one.
Corporate slogan of the 21st century: Why settle for some of your customer's money when you can get all of your customer's money (and monetize their data too)?
Microtransactions, ads, selling customer usage data, up-front costs, PPV, subscriptions... I'm shocked we as customers can actually afford to obtain and use any of these devices anymore.
A lot of things are sold cheaper than they would be otherwise (including at a loss) because they can make part of the money through ads/add-ons instead. It's customers who have shown they prefer those cheaper on the face of it options rather than those with much bigger up-front cost (which still exist but have been mostly left to business products since only there are enough of their customers fine with it).
Yep, this I think is implicit in the author's frustration. He didn't buy the cheapest possible TV, he bought something near the top of the range. Premium customers deserve premium treatment.
I would wager the story is the same for the absolute most expensive TV's as well.
What I haven't seen here in this thread yet is the usual suggestion of looking into "Digital Signage" displays, which in addition to being "dumb", some of them come with a place to chunk in an RPI board!
This would be much more interesting if they had to quantify it.
When Amazon sold the "ad-supported" Kindle, with a corresponding full-price unit, it made a pretty direct statement of the lifetime value they expected out of advertising.
I suspect both consumers and investors would be fascinated to know how much value the manufacturer expects to get out of these post-sale bleeds. Would their investors be comfortable with a firm that's willing to compromise their brand equity on halo-tier products to extract an expected $35 lifetime ad revenue on a $3000 set?
> It's customers who have shown they prefer those cheaper on the face of it options rather than those with much bigger up-front cost
I question the "much" - I'm sure the price difference isn't as big as those who are spying on us would have us believe (and coincidentally they are also keeping their costs secret).
But more importantly, how can you attribute this to "preference", when the hypothetical price difference is front and center, while the ads and spying are hidden, and there is not an equivalent TV without the ads and spying being sold next to the ad-infested one at an unsubsidized price?
I worked for Samsung for ten years and will never buy a Samsung product. It's pretty simple, their product support is shit. I will defend the people I worked with in Semiconductor to my dying breath but nope out on the consumer products like they're lava.
Their UI/UX is also pretty atrocious across the board, so I can imagine what their TVs are like.
I have a big 2022 Sony Bravia smart TV and while there are some suggestions on the home page, I would not call them intrusive at all.
> RootMyTV is a user-friendly exploit for rooting/jailbreaking LG webOS smart TV. It bootstraps the installation of the webOS Homebrew Channel ... At the time of writing (RootMyTV v2 - 2022-01-05), all webOS versions between 4.x and 6.2+ we tested (TVs released between early-2018 and late-2021) are supported by the new exploit chain.
I was so happy with this until I updated my firmware because I had a weird issue with Dolby Vision content. Unfortunately this doesn't work with the latest firmware.
Some years ago I sold my TV because of its annoying UI and ads. I use a large PC monitor instead to watch stuff.
Went back to pirating everything so I dont have to worry about whatever DRM garbage comes next or ads or streaming subscriptions etc.
Zero regret. I waste way less time consuming media in general. I watch more youtube (with ad block and sponsor block ofc) and I go more to the cinema (expensive but I enjoy it way more than a streaming subscription).
I buy merchandise form stuff I like and I go to concerts if possible and that's it.
Like the TV will take a screenshot of what video you're watching via HDMI and upload that for content ID. Or it'll turn on the microphone to listen in on what you say.
Samsung calls that shit "Viewing Information Services". I guess because it informs their headquarters of what you are viewing.
I left my Tizen based Samsung with my ex wife when we got divorced. This was a subtle troll because I am finally free of the fucking thing and she's not.
The last decade of ownership has been hell. Slow laggy equipment, HDCP problems, working but forcibly obsoleted hardware, bugs galore and ads stuffed in your face.
I now no longer own a television and will never own one again.
never, ever give a TV an internet connection, wifi password or dhcp lease.
I realize there are ads on the homescreen of an xbox series x, ps4 pro, ps5, etc but I would much rather deal with those than whatever shoddy operating system TV manufacturers put on their thing.
I have a thousand times more confidence that microsoft and sony will keep their OSes patched and up to date (they have a strong financial/self-interest incentive to do so, for anti piracy reasons) than the junk running on a TV.
Bought a samsung and a roku tv. I don't know which one it was - but, for one of them, I refused to install internet. And it had a red light that flashed like every 30-60 seconds. I looked up why? "Its the no internet" light and it couldnt be disabled.
I had to cover it up with a sticky note on my nice tv until I finally gave up.
> never, ever give a TV an internet connection, wifi password or dhcp lease.
The problem is that it’s becoming unavoidable. Right now the only oven with a good Consumer Reports rating requires a Wi-Fi connection, so it’s either get that model or another one with a significantly worse rating.
Or find a reviewer who values the same things you do?
I have to think there's an acceptable oven on the market that doesn't have a Wi-Fi requirement. I bought a GE Adora oven a few years ago and it has been exactly as perfectly uncomplicated an oven as I've ever wanted; it was even easy to replace the handle when I broke it off in a moment of poor judgement. It looks like those are still available, and don't require any Wi-Fi access.
> Right now the only oven with a good Consumer Reports rating requires a Wi-Fi connection, so it’s either get that model or another one with a significantly worse rating.
I guarantee you Wolf, Sub-Zero, and Viking do not require Wi-Fi connections.
> Right now the only oven with a good Consumer Reports rating requires a Wi-Fi connection
Is this some weird American only thing? I keep hearing on HN how everything requires wifi now, but in Australia, I couldn't find any major oven that had wifi at all, and only 14 out of 504 fridges on a popular appliances site (Appliances Online) had wifi at all.
I'd be interested to know what the options look like in other countries.
One thing I hate is when things like input switching are part of the TV OS. It can turn something that should be fast and easy into something slow and glitchy.
I want to skywrite this comment above Samsung's offices for a year.
I bought their brand-new-tech Quantum Dot OLED. I LOVE the screen, it's outperformed my every expectation... EXCEPT... switching inputs is a nightmare! How is that possible?!?! I still have no idea how to get to an input select screen. I use my Harmony remote to direct-select an input (impossible with the stock remote) or wait for the TV to say, "no signal, choose another input"
I'm completely flabbergasted at how ridiculous it is to do.
In many smart TVs, when you press the input button, it doesn't immediately pop up a mini OSD. It loads a program that can take as long as it does to load a streaming service's app. This program shows you ads, sometimes even inserts ads for streaming services in between the input sources you have to click over. This is before the time it actually takes for the input to change. With my TV, if I am on TV/Antenna, it takes me about 10 seconds from the time I first press the input button to when I can press the OK button on HDMI 4 which sends the command to switch inputs. The actual switching of the input takes about 1 second.
But not all. So, clearly it doesn't have to be below the OS level. I agree it needs to be quick, responsive and reliable, but that doesn't preclude it from being implemented in the OS.
To be fair I used the word "should", as in I believe that it would be best practice, at least from the perspective of user experience, to operate below the OS. If that were the case, input switching wouldn't be dependent on the speed or reliability of the OS. As you point out, it's not strictly necessary if the OS is responsive enough and reliable enough to begin with.
The fact that I have to wait for my TV to boot so that the 'input' button works in order to switch to the device I intended to use when I turned it on.
Mine takes 2-3s to come up, and at that point switching inputs takes pretty much only the time it takes for me to choose it. So, again. The problem is not that it has to be below the OS. The problem are crappy OSs and/or hardware.
Input switching on my TV doesn't even cross the Doherty threshold, or at least not in any way that I notice. And believe me, I get as irritated as anyone with laggy TV menus - which is one reason I refuse to buy Samsung at this point.
The speed and reliability of the OS. I should be able to change inputs even if the TV OS is unresponsive, which is not uncommon on some smart TVs. If the smart TVs you're using are fast enough and reliable enough that you aren't having issues then I don't think there would be any benefit to you.
On the contrary, I absolutely love the WebOS that came on my TV, and I use it (connected to the internet) regularly. I've often found myself watching YouTube and even browsing NPR and HN (using a TV remote as the only input device) on the TV rather than using my laptop, desktop, or even my iPhone. It's also open source [0] and you can develop your own software for it [1] without needing to submit that software to their app store [2] (though you can do that too [3]).
I bought an LG C2 earlier this year. The ads are impossible to remove, but sufficiently avoidable that I do not regret the purchase.
There is an option to run as a dumb panel, but I haven't tried using it that way.
Setting the TV up normally requires accepting a disconcerting number of EULAs. You can choose to decline some individual terms at the cost of disabling features like voice recognition, but others are required.
The TV's home screen is rife with advertisements, mainly in the form of pre-loaded apps and mandatory content sections like "Top Picks for You" or "Sports Alert." The Verge has screenshots at https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/11/22223767/lg-webos-6-tv-so.... These cannot all be hidden or moved below the fold.
The home screen ads really bothered me when I first unboxed the TV. It was new, and I wanted to explore everything it could do. Once the novelty wore off and I stopped giving a damn about the smart features, it stopped being a problem. For example: you never have to see the home screen. If you're not hooked up to cable or an antenna, the TV boots into a screensaver (a Rothko-esque slideshow by default) from which you can summon an app switcher and jump directly to Netflix / YouTube / etc. This skips the home screen altogether, so you never see those ads. System menus are free from ads to the best of my recollection.
I remain vaguely concerned about background data collection and telemetry.
Most (all?) of the ads can be disabled in the settings. The built-in web browser even includes ad-blocking and cookie blocking options.
General -> AI Service -> AI Recommendation: turn off "Who.Where.What?" and "Content Recommendations" and "Network-Based Personalization Recommendations"
General -> Home Settings: turn off "Home Promotion"
General -> Additional Settings: turn off "Live Plus" and turn on "Do Not Sell My Personal InformationA
General -> Additional Settings -> Advertisement: turn on "Limit AD Tracking"
My vizio runs so much better without a connection. It used to semi-regularly get into a state where the screen was blank even though the tv was on. Because it was a smart tv, powering it off wouldn't actually power cycle it. I had to pull the power cord to reset it.
Now I use a chromecast plugged into it for streaming. before that I used a ps4.
My previous Vizio tv botched chroma functionality for pc monitor for 2 years before getting it fixed. It doesn't allow downgrade. Never connect to wifi again.
My TCL will blink that if the WAP is up but the internet is down, but it takes a while for it to start blinking. I just put the TV on the slowest network i have, and i rarely use the TV anyhow. 90% of media consumption is on a 4K PC monitor, and 9.5% of the remaining is on a 720p projector. I wish that 1080p or 2k projectors were cheaper, but at ~$350-$500 a 720p projector is a really hard price/feature point to beat.
On the wall i painted with Silver Screen Behr paint, the pixels are about 1-2mm.
There's ads on consoles now? Wow... I feel like people would not have tolerated that 10 years ago.
I remember reading memes about how you have to "pledge" to the Mountain Dew or else you can't turn your console on... and that was comically exaggerated but we're certainly getting close...
+1. I bought a samsung premiere projector, and it's a very good product. But the first thing it did was prompting me for the wifi, and hell no.
It's offline, plugged to a real computer that has internet access and I skip the projector home page as quickly as I can to get to the laptop mirrored displays.
It's so frustrating. For some consumers, you're dropping multiple paychecks on a TV that you want to just _USE_ - but you can't because Samsung, LG, whoever decided to take money from various companies and shove their garbage advertising down your throats and you can't disable it.
I don't feel like browsing various commercial signage websites for TV's that don't have any advertising in and I don't feel like we should be punished for paying more for this either!
I just want a TV I can turn on - and it doesn't need to load an operating system - it doesn't need to delay displaying actual TV because the computer needs to reach out and upload telemetry, download advertisements, and take pictures of what you watch. It just needs to take an HDMI/RCA/whatever ports, and output the signal on the screen.
There's no expectation of privacy anymore in society - some company somewhere has eked out a slice of the market share, and are pounding their customers with ways to extract more wealth out of you while you sit and take it - the 2 or 3 second delays eating up your life for advertisements you'll never buy things from.
It's depressing - I just want a TV. A plain TV. I'd rather not pay more for a commercial display-tier TV that doesn't have any of this smart crap built in.
There are plenty of plain TVs around though, just like there are plain operating systems, plain phones, etc but consumers still give their money to Samsung, Microsoft, Google, etc. Most people don't care, you are not the target audience.
Seems to be the way of it. When you start wanting things like 4k, good HDR, or (heavens forbid) low latency for games, the selections get a lot tighter.
Actually, my employer tried to get a Sceptre as a reasonable accommodation for someone with low vision (needed everything to be huge). That panel was so unusable not even the legally blind want to look at it.
I run a pihole on my network for exactly this reason. The amount of network traffic the TV attempts, even when on standby or watching over-the-air broadcast is astonishing.
Meanwhile the OP post is so full of ads you’re basically scrolling past a full-screen (on mobile) ad for every paragraph. Then when I came across a chunk of text without ads and thought it was over, an ad got dynamically loaded into the middle of the text pushing what I was reading down off the screen.
Yes in this case I didn’t pay to read the content so they need ads, but the user-hostility of ads everywhere is just insane lately.
Even with ad blockers and NoScript, the website layout is awful due to the constant blank spaces where the ads used to go, paired with a miniscule viewport for the actual text.
I've started to use Reader Mode a lot more lately, and it has been surprising how much more pleasant the Web is when consuming articles this way.
Maybe we should Invent a protocol for marking up text documents and sending them over the Internet or something? Maybe call it Actual Text Markup Language?
The other reason they are inexpensive is that they forego some physical robustness. Like you have to be more careful than normal taking it out of the box and mounting it on your wall. Or if you have kids and things sometimes go flying you better hope they don’t hit the screen.
It is a trade off you have to be willing to make ;)
I have an LG C1 OLED 48 inch which I use as a monitor. Its a really beautiful screen although a bit reflective.
But it must be the most fragile feeling device I have ever owned, the bulk of the screen is like 2mm thick and I basically have to get myself into a state of extreme focus, meditation, stretching and so on before I dare to move it. There's no easy way to grip it without putting some pressure on the thin part, even with two people.
I seriously wish they didn't go for the brownie points of making a screen this thin. Sometimes just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Seriously, make it like 20mm thick, robust, easy to move.
I cannot imagine that any other screen, budget or otherwise, could feel more fragile than this.
I own this tv, and I had it connected to the internet for a short while. Not only does it have ads everywhere, but the menu is SLOW. Taking it off the internet not only got rid of the ads, but also made menu navigation faster.
I think this whole thread is very indicative of why programmers shouldn't design a product. I've been reading through the article and comments trying to figure out what "ads" were being referenced and then I finally realized people must be talking about the ads for TV shows and movies...
I think the average consumer would much rather have a TV that they simply connect to their wifi and then get Netflix, YT, Disney+, etc as opposed to hooking up some sort of computer or streaming box via hdmi to get the TV to work. I also think the average consumer doesn't find ads for TV shows and movies that show up on their TV intrusive. I mean, that's essentially what every streaming app does already isn't it? It just shows potential shows and movies. Why would they get upset that their TV does the same thing?
What I do think is intrusive and disgusting is the fact that Samsung will happily take screenshots of what you're watching and send telemetry. The random ads for movies that show up are the least of my concerns.
I ditched cable and went 100% streaming starting with Netflix because they had zero ads. Many of my friends did the same. I consider ads an assault on my psyche and will avoid them as much as I possibly can.
My suggestion is buy a Roku, don't give the TV an IP address, and run Netflix, Amazon Prime, Plex, Hulu, and whatever you want out of one of the biggest channel catalogs out there on the Roku. It's way nicer remote, supports RF (so no pointing at the TV), and even supports using earphones (BT or wired from the remote).
Sorry, you’re right. I was thinking of the TV itself. Yes for a box it’s a little more complicated. Personally I go with Apple TV. Much more polished UI than a Roku and certainly no being bombarded with ads.
Just plug your laptop to an HDMI port, and use a wireless mouse/keyboard set. I've been doing this for over 10 years, and since 2020 I'm also working from home. Nothing beats a 70 inch "display", my workspace never felt better than on my TV. Using the TV remote to consume content is soooo annoying, and not having the ability to block anything you want (i.e. using Ublock Origin) are absolute deal breakers to me. It surprises me that the average HN user doesn't do the same as I do. TVs are just glorified PC monitors, nothing more. No internet for them.
When I was a kid, the most frustrating technical challenge around TVs was how to get the VCR clock to stop flashing. How the world has changed since then!
I went through this process - we bought a "TV" and found it impossible to fight off "watch this" trailers appearing and enticing our little one.
The only solution is to buy "business or gaming monitors" - no built in TV, just connect up a apple box and be done with it.
Even then you can tell Apple is moving from "here is a button to press" to "let us decide what you are interested in"
(Tangent but it's noticeable that the stuff I have bought from Apple Itunes like a kids movie is several clicks away, but the latest movie that I have not bought but will need to pay for is right there on the home screen. No. That's the wrong way round. If I reach up to my bookshelf and the bookshelf needs me to climb a ladder and reach over the books for sale to get to my own darn book, the bookshelf is not doing it's job.
Unlike other brands, my LG allowed me to decline all the crap ware ToS so it's pretty much just a normal non smart TV. It does give a text add for new apps at the bottom usually when a new firmware update comes out.
Same. I had to click No a bunch of times. And, dig through the menus to make sure I didn't miss any defaulted-on crap. But, with that done, my LG TVs UX has been great for years.
For many years now my answer for "What TV to get?" has been "Last year's LG OLED." The screens are gorgeous. The UX is good. The differences between yearly models have been minor. The current year is naturally expensive. The previous year is nearly as good and much cheaper. And, the model from the year before that is actually often more expensive because leftover stock is low.
That's only the problem you know about. The problem you don't know about is your TV is watching (and listening) to you. Put a cheap computer between your TV and the internet. Always buy the dumbest TV available. But dumb TVs now cost more than smart TVs. Dumb TVs make it difficult for the manufacturer to make money off you after the sale.
I don't understand why anyone would like to connect such a thing to their WiFi. An external device gives you flexibility and control. The built-in firmware gives you ads and tracking.
Yeah, buy smart TVs for their display panels and image processing, not for their smarts. First thing when setting them up is disabling the wifi and bluetooth and not plugging in ethernet, followed by hooking up an Apple TV 4K/Nvidia Shield/PC.
Also worth factoring ability to update firmare without an internet connection when making a purchase decision. Sony TVs for example typically allow updates via a thumb drive.
I use my Vizio tv for integrated apps. YoutubeTV, Netflix, Paramount+ and Prime Video all work great, except Prime Video will buffer a lot lately but the other apps never do. It's also very easy to enable/disable Viewing Data and Advertising under Menu/Admin & Privacy.
My dad runs Apple TV since his screen is older, and it's marginally better than my Vizio because most of the time YoutubeTV continues where it left off when turning TV back on which is nice.
The funny thing too is that a lot of TV/Cable providers' set top boxes _already_ include built-in apps, so now you've got your TV that does Netflix, Hulu, etc. - then you _also_ have your set-top box being able to do the same thing.
It just makes things so much more frustrating when you're providing support for the less technically inclined.
You underestimate how many people buy that ~3k TV on credit and for whom an extra ~150 bucks for an Apple TV is actually non-trivial money.
In fact that's the reason these ads are there - a lot of people can't be convinced to use an external device to escape them. If everyone used Apple TVs/etc, there would be no built-in ads because it's just not worth the trouble.
If I were in that position I think I'd buy a TV that's lower priced but still quite good ($1.5-$2.5k) and spend the difference on a good streaming box. The value per dollar is much better that way.
It's not just the money. I bought a new LG OLED last year. I didn't care that it had integrated Netflix, YouTube, whatever because I had a chromecast.
But the experience of using the integrated apps is just better. It all just works out of the box, there are basically no ads (some "recommended content", but it's pretty unobtrusive) and I don't need to use my phone or worry about why youtube or netflix have randomly decided not to see the chromecast.
I like having only one remote with my TV. I get minor anxiety when at other people's houses and they have 3-4 remotes or more, and usually only one person knows what they all do (the one that had to set it all up).
With the Roku stick, you can set up the remote to control TV power and volume. I stuck the TV remote on the back of the TV with velcro so it won't get lost, but in ordinary use the Roku remote is all you need.
Cheapo 4k 60hz Spectre tv from walmart. Best purchase I've made in years. Plug in my favorite streaming device and when it gets old and slow I just chuck it and buy another $20-50 device instead of having to buy a whole TV.
I mentioned this before, the hackers of the world need to try to get linux onto smart TVs, not sure how it would get flashed, but Samsung is being truly obnoxious, and they aren't alone.
They know you have no options, so they can be as obnoxious as they want once you get the TV, and they know everyone else is as bad.
But if there was a way better OS to flash on? Sign me up.
Knowing the TV makers, they likely will have that locked down tight with signed code. But if there is a way to update firmware over the air, maybe there's a way to intercept the update and swap in a different firmware
If you are comfortable with configuring DNS settings you can use NextDNS, it works with LG smart TVs. Pi-hole is an alternative but it is a bit more complicated to setup.
I just got a Sony flagship television with Google Android TV.
I'm fully expecting it to be automatically broken by a software update about 1-3 months after the warranty expires and the new models are released. I plan to disable updates around 1 year in to mitigate this risk.
Think about what it says about the entire industry that this is what customers expect: multi-thousand-dollar products being purposefully remotely broken by the vendors.
Same boat. Sony has great embedded software engineering power but they are just not that good at these upper layer applications. Look at PS Store web, it's a hot mess. PS App is also terrible. Xperia has some fancy photography/videography apps and that's it. But that also means you get zero of the LG/Samsung nonsense.
Dumb question - How does one go about (cost effectively) getting just a monitor that has:
* Same size/resolution range as the comparable TV
* Same price range as the comparable TV
* X display ports (combination of hdmi, usb, etc)
* Wifi (and bluetooth too?)
* Audio + ports
* Fine infra-red too for remotes
* Other absoulute hardware essentials i might have missed
Absolutely no inbuilt players or software or bloatware or adware or any of that crap! May be an app (inbuilt or for the phone) to configure presets perhaps.
The magic words you are looking for here is 'commercial display' and it will always cost more than a comparable sized TV -- smaller volume of production & sales and the manufacturer is forgoing the revenue stream all of that adware and crapware on the standard TV offers them. It may have audio ports but is unlikely to have more than toy speakers because a commercial installation knows to keep the audio and video separated.
tl;dr you can get something close to what you want but you are going to pay 2X or more for the unit compared to a similarly sized TV.
Yes it was a pretty rhetorical q. Why should a dumb display cost more? Are they really subsidizing a "smart tv" with all their bloat/crap ware? Does that even make economic sense?
I actually ran into this problem buying an Nvidia Shield Pro; they had just changed the UI to be packed with ads, so I was left wondering what was so great about it (from previous reviews).
Currently a Steam Link (old hardware), and Raspberry Pi running Plex/Kodi are pretty much my setup. Cast things to Kodi, use yt-dlp to download YouTube stuff, or remote into my PC with the Steam Link.
My next "TV" is just going to be a conference room monitor. Dell has some for like around $1K for a 55 inch and $4.3k for a 75 inch. Not sure about other companies, but my experiences with Dell have always been positive so I'm okay paying a bit of a premium absent better alternatives.
I've been very happy with Sony smart TVs. They are Android based, and don't have "ads." (They do highlight promoted content.) It's very easy to go directly to Netflix, ect. Even the remotes give the services dedicated buttons.
Somewhat related, ever since I upgraded from old Chromecast to Google TV I'm having issues simply casting from HBO Max or Netflix. First I need to cast once, it would turn on the TV and open the annoying Google TV "app browser". Then I'd have to stop casting and start casting again to actually enter the app I want. Maybe my stick has some hardware problems and/or I'm paranoid but things like these feel like they are just trying to get me to use the Google remote and their app so that they can show me ads and recommend other streaming services (of course Amazon Video is always the first app offered eveb though I never used it).
I’ve been using Chromecast for 7 years now. A lot of these built in UIs are a pretty miserable experience to muck around in.
To me, your phone is the only thing that should be controlling your TV or sound system. It’s nice, it’s clean, and I don’t have multiple remotes to flop between.
Who wants to deal with gimpy little Linux OS’s built into their tv? They’re getting too smart in a hyper 1980’s sort of way. They provide far more than anyone asked, my TV doesn’t need a browser. I can’t help but think TVs would be cheaper without them, but built in smart boxes are so run of the mill now that I’m sure it’s at most $50 extra.
Incase I come off as a luddite, I think smart ovens are a great idea.
I have a Mi TV. I created rules for everything it was randomly sending in my Pi-Hole. I don't use traditional TV so I have no experience with smart ads. Next to the common apps we make heavy use of Kodi, mostly to properly access all the TV channels online catalogues. I use alternative apps without ads whenever possible (Smarttube, some weird Twitch app I found on the store, ...)
The only thing i couldn't 'fix' yet are the extensive ads when using YouTube via cast.
Edit:// Samsung botching Android to something ugly with shit UX is nothing new. Really just avoid buying Samsung devices
If Software Freedom Conservancy win their lawsuit against Vizio for GPL violations in their TVs, you will probably be able to install open source Linux distros with KDE Plasma Bigscreen or Kodi on any Vizio TV and soon afterwards lots of other smart TV vendors including Samsung will likely be similar. Allowing the vendor operating system to remain on the device after you purchase it basically means ads/spyware these days.
Besides complaining on the internet, what can consumers do about this? All the TV brands do the same thing, and those that don't simply haven't gotten around to pushing out the firmware update that enables ads.
A few people have mentioned ARC problems. If you are having problems with plain ARC, as opposed to eARC, try using an HDMI cable with ethernet.
Plain ARC is supposed to work over any HDMI cable so you should only need an HDMI with ethernet for eARC, but after years of never being able get ARC to work with my Denon receiver which is from 2013 I happened to notice that in the manual it said that for ARC to use a “Standard HDMI cable with Ethernet” or “High Speed HDMI cable with Ethernet”. I switched to a "with Ethernet" cable and ARC worked.
The smart tv interfaces are abysmal across the board and it has mostly to do with the prioritization of ad space over functionality. I have an old Plasma with an Apple TV I use for most of my tv watching and then a modern new smart tv for games and the occasional movie in another room.
Roku is also a fine cheaper alternative to the built in interface of new TVs though it is also ad supported so you are just replacing one bad ad supported interface for a better, ad supported interface. And while it functions and is generally quick, it isn’t the most attractive UX.
Consider getting a digital projector instead. I got a relatively cheap one (Dr J mini projector, 1080p) for $60. It...is not like a TV. Works only in low lighting conditions and has some focus issues, but if you just want a big screen with decent resolution, absolutely worth skipping a TV for this. And NO SMART FEATURES.
I'll be upgrading to a better, eventually 4k projector, but it seems like the ad and spam smart crap hasn't hit projectors yet....YET.
Well don't buy a Samsung then. Sometimes things are that simple. They're pretty well known for bloatware and why would tv be any different? I have a Phillips (not really Phillips but some vague company licensed their brand), basically the cheapest option in the 70 inch 4k space. I don't have issues with ads. Just the standard yt ads because I'm cheap and don't have yt premium.
My Samsung TV included anti-virus software! Why does my TV need that? Sure it can install apps, but they’re all from Samsung’s own TV app store.
I only learned this because the UI had gotten soooo slow, like five seconds to respond to each button click on the remote control. Turning off the virus scanner mostly fixed the problem. Thanks, TV software update!
We've had a Roku TV for years and have been extremely happy with it.
The UI is great and it's nice to have everything right there without having to work for it. And as someone without cable, I even come to enjoy some of the internet channels they offer.
My takeaway would be manufacturers do not do good user software. This is true whether it's tvs or cars or fridges.
Aside from not giving it a network connection, my LG C1 also became a lot less obnoxious when I declined the privacy policy, at which point it disabled most so-called “smart” features. All the image processing stuff still works. Also felt like it starts up more quickly, although I’m not game to re-enable anything to actually measure it.
I have the same TV and have literally never thought about the ads on it except when reading articles on Hacker News.
It seems like a huge benefit these days to be the sort of person who just isn't bothered by ads, like you can enjoy products and have more options available and don't have to do a ton of work to enjoy them.
>I have the same TV and have literally never thought about the ads on it except when reading articles on Hacker News.
>It seems like a huge benefit these days to be the sort of person who just isn't bothered by ads, like you can enjoy products and have more options available and don't have to do a ton of work to enjoy them.
You work for Google. Of course you have no problem with ads.
Well I don't work on ads or on any product that has or will ever have ads, but...
It's really the other way around. I work at Google because I have no problem with ads. It's another example of opportunities available if you are okay with ads!
I wonder what TV units big corps buy for conference rooms, etc?
Imagine you are Google and you buy LG Spy TV, or Samsung Spy Panel. You put it in your conference room, where you meet regularly to discuss next Pixel phone with the Samsung's remote control AI listening to you. Eh?
i am using a C1 for a desktop monitor, this advertising stuff is crazy i turn it on and it overlays a message about getting Disney plus for x per month....
even worse it auto updated and it force me to go through a TOS and privacy policy.... now why the hell do we need all this on a TV
I also own a samsung smart tv and hate the ad in the source screen, but more infuriating is their tv app always reappearing in the source menu as the first option… I always delete it but after a while there it is again..
also, it’s very ironic that I got a samsung ad on this site…
That's what you get for not doing research prior buying TV. By now everyone should already know to avoid Samsung smart TVs. Just read reviews/experiences prior buying or try it on your own and if you don't like it return it.
Funny, I got a Samsung TV which comes with Samsung TV+ which is their internet streaming service for free. Although I'm fortunately enough to not get ads everywhere (hopefully this doesn't change), the channel are actually pretty good.
TVs also seem to consume way more power. I have 48" full hd Sony from 2016 that consumes max 58W. None of the TVs on the market come even close, some consume 3x as much! What happened? Is 4K really that inefficient?
for smart tv's in general... can we make a public OSOS, to replace shit like this... just make it a Linux box tied to a some ubiquitous AUR equivalent... or are the unique hardware features too varied to overcome?
"There are a few guides on the web to minimize these intrusions, which include not only digging into the Samsung Tizen UX to chase checkboxes and mess around with settings, but also having to go into your broadband router's configuration and block lists of ad serving domains.
You can also use Cisco's free consumer OpenDNS service to do this and override the DNS settings within the TV without messing with your router, which is what I ended up doing. But that requires the ability to update your dynamic IP from your router, so you may need to refresh OpenDNS's settings on occasion."
Or you can put your own router, a computer you control with an open source OS of your choosing, in front of or in place of the ISP's router. Then you can, through various means, control the TV's access to DNS or other servers.
Maybe the OP is stopping some ads by using OpenDNS, but he is not stopping data collection, commercial surveillance and data sharing with third parties for commercial purposes. Under OpenDNS's extremely permissive "privacy" policy, anyone, including TV manufacturers like Samsung, can potentially get the DNS lookup data from Cisco.^1
"It's ridiculous that you can spend this kind of money on a product, cut cords, and pay extra not to have ads on certain services, and then have them forced down your throat in the TV UX."
You may pay extra to stop ads, but it will not stop the surveillance, data collection and sharing and use of the data for commercial purposes.
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The firmware update might have stricter DRM controls; it could have a tricky new way to exfiltrate data out via your streaming box; maybe the firmware update itself contains some static ads; perhaps in the near future we'll have public wifi or free Google community wifi, and the new firmware will have the smarts to use that and bypass your wifi.
And these days, once you update the firmware, you often cannot revert back to earlier firmware.