Is it really ignorance? I've seen the pictures of Chickens in cages. I'm aware of the industrialized meat business. I'm aware of the shitty conditions a lot of animals are put in. It just doesn't make me feel bad about eating meat.
I am aware of all that as well and it doesn’t bother me either, because they are food and food is something I need to survive. Whether it’s higher order life or lower order life…for you to live, something else has to die.
That’s purely subjective. It’s just how you’re choosing to view animals and thus doesn’t absolve you of moral responsibility for how they are treated or for their killing.
The same species of animal may be viewed as food, companions, workers, pests, etc. Again these designations are entirely subjective. The suffering of a living being is not excused by virtue of the category we choose to place it in.
Sure, it’s subjective. However, you realize that I am not an outlier here right? For all of human history, it’s been universally regarded that some animals are food
That’s not true (e.g Hinduism), but even if it were, the fact your views align with the views of other people alive or dead does not make them correct, nor does it absolve you of the moral and ethical responsibility to consider their consequences. At this stage in human development, eating meat is a choice not a necessity. Many other customs that were once as popular are now seen in a much different light.
Not sure that calling out a single homogenous religious group as an example (which even within itself is not fully vegan), when literally almost every other culture on earth has and has had meat as a part of their diet is going to do much to convince me that vegan or vegetarianism is the default dietary behavior of the human race.
Your morals and ethics are your own, I do not need absolution for nor am bound by your dietary ethical standards.
This is the thing I don’t get. Yes, those animals are exploited for food, but it’s not like you need to eat animals to live. You could very well thrive on plants exclusively, but you choose not to. Why, and I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity, do sentient beings have to die for your diet?
I'm not OP but I'll reply, because I'm also a meat eater.
> animals are exploited for food
Animals are not exploited for food, animals are food, you are also food.
> it's not like like you need to eat animals to live.
You do need to eat animals to live. You can live without, but you have to take supplements. because again, you need to eat animals to live.
> You could very well thrive on plants exclusively
Thrive is a strong word. energy wise, meat is cheap-ish and more filling. The word exclusively here is paramount, because meat consumption has been subsiding somewhat, but this is not enough, for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming.
> I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity
I don't believe you here, unless you were born in a vegetarian cult of some sort, you know why people eat meat. Its the natural thing to do, I'm somewhat a conservative, mostly because whenever an unnatural solution is developed, there are always unseen consequences. prove to me in 500 years that humans don't need to eat meat and I'll believe you, we'll both be dead. but I'll believe you then.
> do sentient beings have to die for your diet?
It's not like plants are not completely unsentient either, they have defenses (an aspect of organisms that don't want to die), they do chase water (thirst).
With all that said, I have reduced my meat consumption and have been trying to have an all veggie day, I've been unsuccessful, mostly because the only dish I can make is fried food, and fried food is super unhealthy to me.
> Animals are not exploited for food, animals are food, you are also food.
I take it you would take offence if I ate your kids, though?
> You do need to eat animals to live. You can live without, but you have to take supplements. because again, you need to eat animals to live.
This is mostly a myth, by the way. Reading up on nutrients and where to get them can get you a long way. You don’t need „animals“, you need a mix of different nutrients and you can absolutely get those from a variety of sources. Meat contains plenty easy energy, but just because it’s easy doesn’t mean that’s the only way.
> for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming.
Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? The protagonist learns the cheap food their whole society is nurtured with is actually made from deceased people. They are horrified by it, and obviously wouldn’t consider eating it again. Please don’t immediately dismiss this: It really feels similar to really understand what it means that your food had dreams, hopes, and feelings. This isn’t just some fancy lifestyle change, but a shift in moral values.
> prove to me in 500 years that humans don't need to eat meat and I'll believe you, we'll both be dead. but I'll believe you then.
I mean, it’s not like a vegetarian diet is new or something? There are many cultures that did, and continue to, eat pretty much exclusively vegetarian. Just ask a Hindu or a Buddhist…
> It's not like plants are not completely unsentient either, they have defenses (an aspect of organisms that don't want to die), they do chase water (thirst).
They don’t have a central nervous system however, or pain receptors, or even a brain, for what it’s worth. So, by all practical means, they don’t feel pain, or experience being alive as we do.
You know, I’m well aware I need carbon from somewhere, something has to die so I can live. But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to reduce suffering of others just for my pleasure.
Maybe enjoying cooking really helps, though. I can conjure up a lot of tasty stuff that just works well without meat, so it’s not like I’d miss anything.
> I take it you would take offence if I ate your kids, though?
Uhhh what? like... Is that a threat? Are you a cow? did I eat your kids? Are you planning to? Do you mean like sperm? are you coming on to me? Do you mean in a plane crash where you had to eat each other to survive... in which case, yeah, I'd probably feel bad about the whole thing clearly. Or maybe I'd have to call the cops... or for a reservation IDK.
> This is mostly a myth, by the way. Reading up on nutrients and where to get them can get you a long way. You don’t need „animals“, you need a mix of different nutrients and you can absolutely get those from a variety of sources. Meat contains plenty easy energy, but just because it’s easy doesn’t mean that’s the only way.
Mostly is key here, if its an unavoidable eventuality, then you can't treat it as a spectrum. This is a binary thing, its either a myth or it isn't. You will have to take supplements.
> Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? The protagonist learns the cheap food their whole society is nurtured with is actually made from deceased people. They are horrified by it, and obviously wouldn’t consider eating it again.
I have not seen the movie soylent green, and yes, morality is key here, morality can be made and unmade as society wishes. Would I eat a dog or a live octopus? no. But if I was born in a society where that was acceptable I would. the fact that the people were horrified was a failure of that society itself, they should have been educated from the start about it.
> Please don’t immediately dismiss this: It really feels similar to really understand what it means that your food had dreams, hopes, and feelings. This isn’t just some fancy lifestyle change, but a shift in moral values.
What dreams does a fish dream of? swimming? what has value here? anything thinking? should we try creating braindead animals? would you eat nonthinking meat? if we're talking movies and hypothethicals, would you be okay via removing the animals brain and it being kept alive in some sort of matrix?
> You know, I’m well aware I need carbon from somewhere, something has to die so I can live. But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to reduce suffering of others just for my pleasure.
Speaking of buddhism, life is suffering, and it seems to me that if you want to remove suffering, then death is by far the only solution.
With all that said, most counterarguments here were mostly trollish, and thanks, I'll probably read up on hindu recipes... though I doubt I have any of the spices.
> for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming.
Of course, because it’s often underpinned by a subjectively moralistic worldview. Frankly this is a turn off to me as much as the diet itself. I could never be a vegan because I enjoy meat too much, but also I wouldn’t want the association with that movement and the reputation it has.
I don’t pass judgement on what vegans choose to eat, but that doesn’t mean I want to be associated with a group that is well known for being judgmental
> You could very well thrive on plants exclusively
Survive, yes.
Thrive? No, not really.
And it's absolutely not the case that everyone can even survive on a pure vegetarian/vegan diet. Some people have medical conditions that make it impossible. Many, many, many people do not have the money to buy the unquestionably much more expensive food required to maintain a nutritious vegetarian or vegan diet.
The ability to do so is a privilege of the abled and well-off.
You’d be surprised to learn that several cultures across the world do eat no or almost no meat. Meat consumption increases with wealth, so reality is contrary to what you’re hinting at: eating meat is a privilege of the well-off.
I don’t see how that relates to my point. Universal vegetarism is practiced already, without issues, since hundreds of years, by a rather large populace.
The brutally honest answer is… they taste good and I don’t want to eat plants exclusively because I don’t have to as an omnivore.
As for sentience, it does not factor into my equation, in the same way a lion isn’t concerned about the impala’s feelings. If plants are shown to have sentience one day, would you allow yourself to starve to death out of concern?
No. If I’m starving, I’m going to take a puppy, rip it’s heart out, and eat it raw. But… I’m not starving. None of us is. So to me, this all comes down to having a conscience, and being considerate.
You answered the question quite well — you simply care more about yourself than anyone else. If that’s okay for you, carry on.
Yes, I certainly care for myself more than chickens, deers, cows, pigs, ducks, fish, and many other animals that have found their way to my plate over the years. I don’t humanize them, because they are not humans, their food. You referred to them as “anyone”, which indicates you blur that line.
One difference between us…I would never pass judgement on someone who chooses to eat a plant based diet. However, being well experienced with vegans I have come to expect that moralistic evangelical aspect of folks that choose that lifestyle.
It’s not about humanising, it’s about recognising other sentient beings as having a subjective existence, thus, being someone.
I don’t pass judgement on you, by the way. Choosing not to eat me is, for most, a different mindset, not just a dietary change. I guess this is something everyone has to learn for themselves, and this discussion won’t really lead anywhere, so let’s cut it at this point.
