> What outliners do you know which allow end-users to feed their data into formulas for processing it without using general-purpose programming languages?
Bit of a pointless constraint, the talk is about outliners, not no-code-datamangment. Which tool today does this even offer on a useful level?
But you can look at leo editor (https://leoeditor.com), which is active for 20+ years, fully scriptable and extendable. Though, it's a hot piece of garbage for laymen. It's offers a bunch of features and plugins even for non-coders, but I'm not sure it would satisfy you for this area, if you can't code. Obsidian is probably better than, even if it has more limitations at the moment.
But I'm not sure if there ever is a tool which will satisfy everyone with just a no-code-approach.
> Bit of a pointless constraint, the talk is about outliners, not no-code-datamangment.
The point I'm making is that those are both aspects of the same substrate, and modern knowledge tools are exploring the gap between those two - as well as expanding them in new directions.
Yes, certainly Leo is one of the closest tools on which to build a system like that, although it still relies too much on Python programming (and its usability leaves a lot to be desired, even if the concepts are solid). I expect that the next popular tool in that space will grow either from online notebooks like Jupyter or from desktop linked note-takers like logseq.
(BTW I can code, but I don't want to; remembering the syntax details of the needed APIs does not come natural to me, so it's usually not worth the effort). I still believe that it is possible to grow a programming tool similar to Excel but with structured hierarchical content, without requiring coding more complex than spreadsheet formulas and filters.
> and modern knowledge tools are exploring the gap between those two - as well as expanding them in new directions.
Do they? As I see it, they make it worse. We have all kind of specialized languages. Each function coming with it's own limited DSL and API. Often with poor documentation. Is this actually better?
Yes, each language has on it's own less complexity, but all in all they have more problems and limitations than a proper general purpose language with a good API. I don't think that this is really a good future. But it's true that it might lower the bar for new people.
> BTW I can code, but I don't want to; remembering the syntax details of the needed APIs does not come natural to me
So the problem is not the language, but the support? More autocompletion, documentation, automation, etc. That's a concern of mine too. Things are complex, but there is no support for the casual users. Actually I think if obsidian had been build ontop of VS Code and gained instant support from all the fancy developer-tools, it would gain significant benefits.
Another solution could be integrating an interface like Node-RED offers it. This seems to be quite accessible for casual experts.
> I still believe that it is possible to grow a programming tool similar to Excel
That may be because your development needs are well served already if you're a developer, so you won't see the value in such system. For people who rely on others to build every single piece of automation they need, being able to create their own small automatisms would be priceless.
> all in all they have more problems and limitations than a proper general purpose language with a good API
End users don't need a general purpose language with a good API - at least not as someting that they will handle directly. They need small, self-contained domain-specific languages that they can expand in areas where they fall short, but without the full power of a general programming system (which would overcomplicate the development environment and provide too many opportunities to shoot themselves in the foot).
> So the problem is not the language, but the support?
For me yes, partially, because I already know programming. I could work with a programming environment with complex syntax that autocompleted the required syntax to match my thoughts (something like GitHub copilot works in that direction). But that's still two points of complexity above the system I envision as possible.
Something like the classic Hypercard could be a good starting point for the mental model of such tools. A simple data model, integrated storage, and interactive processes using a programming language with minimal syntax. Expand it with hierarchical storage, expanded integration with other systems and a modern declarative language, and you're set.
Someone today pointed me to a system like this[1], Lepiter, which looks a lot like the solution end users could manage to create on their own on top of their knowledge systems: like a browser with separate cells, where each cell can run a different runtime, hyperlinked and with a simple storage mechanism.
> More autocompletion, documentation, automation, etc.
Those are good things but not enough. What end users are lacking the most is the possibility to create their own automated processes; most tools only allow them to choose among a library of predefined ones, without allowing them to grow the library.
> Another solution could be integrating an interface like Node-RED offers it. This seems to be quite accessible for casual experts.
Unfortunately, graph-based flow visual tools have proven to be useful only for a small subset of automation tasks largely consisting on data transformations using pre-defined functions. The most promising results in End-User Development point out that reactive, rule-based runtime environments like the spreadsheet seem to be better abstractions for allowing users to define their own computations.
> And Excel has good access for new users?
Yes, spreadsheets have a low learning curve and high ceiling. And compared to imperative programming languages, they're like walking up the slope of your house vs. extreme rock climbing.
Bit of a pointless constraint, the talk is about outliners, not no-code-datamangment. Which tool today does this even offer on a useful level?
But you can look at leo editor (https://leoeditor.com), which is active for 20+ years, fully scriptable and extendable. Though, it's a hot piece of garbage for laymen. It's offers a bunch of features and plugins even for non-coders, but I'm not sure it would satisfy you for this area, if you can't code. Obsidian is probably better than, even if it has more limitations at the moment.
But I'm not sure if there ever is a tool which will satisfy everyone with just a no-code-approach.