The weirdest thing about the Advantage is the hollow echo sound it makes. I'm using a $300+ keyboard but it sounds so cheap due to the hollow sound. It seems so obvious after first typing on it.
Besides that, it's an excellent keyboard and I'll never, ever buy a regular keyboard again. Everything else about the design makes sense, and it's completely programmable.
Couldn’t stand the small rubber nub function keys, and the as you mentioned the echo was off-putting. Also zero customizability in the split nature since it’s one massive plastic hunk…. Excited for the advantage 360 this summer as they finally are addressing this by going split and ditching the function keys
The rubber nub function keys were replaced with plastic keys in the most recent version, much more pleasant to use. I'm sad about their departure on the 360. It's a huge keyboard, I want more keys!
I used a piece of mass loaded vinyl to cut out that echoey twang. I also used some rubber o rings to dampen the key sound. Between the two, the keyboard is a lot better.
Yes, coders will never type 180 wpm with most other solutions but isn’t it about time we found other ways to let people enter information with computers.
I thought it was supposed to be out in December? Either way I have owned an Advantage and an Advantage 2 and they're the best non-gaming keyboards I've worked with, by a significant margin, so yeah I'm excited to get the 360.
Pre order was out in December, sounds like they are aiming to have the first keyboard drop in the summer. At least it was implied in their blog: https://kinesis-ergo.com/zmk-and-kinesis/
> Users of the Advantage keyboards tend to fall into two rough buckets: 1) people who suffer from pain when typing on a conventional keyboard, and 2) software developers.
I assume the second bucket is software developers who do not have RSI problems. What are the advantages of this keyboard for software developers? Is "software developers" just another way of saying users who want to customize how the keyboard works?
I'm a software developer with no RSI, who originally bought an Advantage (and then Advantage 2) to play Starcraft II better...
* it's just vastly more comfortable than any ordinary keyboard. I now consider any "ergonomic" keyboard without key wells to be a joke, including the cheaper Kinesis keyboards like the Freestyle.
* you can get a version with "linear" cherry mx red switches for gaming, which is what I did.
* no drivers, no autohotkey scripts, nothing.
* every key is easily remapped; press a key you want to remap, press the key you want it remapped to, repeat until done. Put that escape key on top of caps lock where it belongs.
* there's a crucial "keypad shift" function where you can make one of the keys a modifier that remaps all the other keys. The default functionality is to give you access to numpad and media keys while holding the kpshift key, but you can freely reprogram any of the keys to trigger macros, move hard-to-reach keys to a better position, etc. Basically doubles the available keys.
* as many profiles as you want. You can completely reconfigure the keyboard for each activity you do. The other day I wanted to play the original Diablo 1, which doesn't support changing shortcut keys, so it took me 2min to create a profile that moves the uncomfortable F5-F8 spell casting keys to the home row. Again, there's no alt tabbing or mucking around with GUI's or config files; you just remap keys on the fly while playing the game.
* other stuff like programmable macros, etc. I don't really use this personally.
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edit: I realized I didn't really answer the original question. For software developers specifically I would say at the end of the day it comes down to comfort. The key wells, thumb clusters, and wrist pads ultimately keep your hands in a comfortable position. And the programmability features ultimately work in service of comfort as well: having modifiers like CTRL/ALT/SHIFT available on the big thumb keys makes emacs chords much less of a stretch. Having Super/Windows on a thumb key makes i3/sway window management very comfortable. And the kpshift feature I described above makes it so you can move lots of functionality to the home row instead of stretching for it somewhere else.
I think so. Plus the thumb clusters which makes accessing modifiers like ctrl as well as home/end and page up/down easier than a standard keyboard. I personally never used home/end and page up/down before I got my Advantage 2 but I find I use them more since they are easy to access without going off home row. I also use the "numpad" more and I've taken a lot of common programming symbols like {},[],| off my pinky and onto the numpad layer. Although that's more a pain thing.
I've tried the thumb clusters, and I just mis-hit space too often with them. I'm sure I could get used to them, but I really do prefer a wide space bar with a large target area.
I also do this with my Advantage 2 (along with several other remaps), but I wanted to point out that the caps->esc remapping is now quite straightforward in osx.
I'm using a Freestyle (still) and it's a pretty great keyboard. I was very surprised to discover it uses membrane switches; they've got a great feel. I only wish I could (easily) replace the cable connecting the halves and move them a bit farther apart.
I've used an original Advantage for most of the last 10-15 years; it's a TANK of a keyboard and I love it.
I bought a KeyChron -- conventional style, but smaller -- to use with an iPad last year, but it's ended up being my go-to at my desk due partly to the great key feel and smaller footprint, but also because it turns out backlighting is a really nice thing to have.
This weekend I was working in the garden, having an epic battle with the bamboo infestation, and messed up my hands badly.[0]
The pain and soreness in my hands made me notice something: My thumb hurts when I use it to hit the command key! And my pinky hurts when I hit ctrl!
This, along with a generous bonus from my work, inspired me to cut the problem off at the pass and invest in a Moonlander keyboard. I love weird controls and input methods, so it doubles as a quirky hobby purchase for me as well.
That being said: I am absolutely ready for the day we have viable alternatives to finger typing. I would also love a way to interact with my phone better. I've looked at the "twiddler" one-handed chorded keyboard, but it seems like a gimmick.
I remember a few years ago there was a promising project that read your keystrokes through your wrists. Hopefully something like that will pan out in the near future.
0: Basically... i was using pruning sheers to cut through the bamboo by squeezing the shears really hard. I KNOW I AM AN IDIOT. I already ordered a hand saw for my next battle.
My "why didn't I think of this earlier" tip for the Moonlander is to associate the .bin files you download from configurator with the Wally app, so you can just download and launch flashing from your browser.
Also, pair that with sticking a "Reset" button on an out of the way layer so you can reset your KB without needing a paper clip or similar poking tool.
Could be something you can't do if you already use .bin files elsewhere in your system (embedded programming work perhaps), but if you can swing it, it was really convenient the first month or two I had my Moonlander. I often made two to three changes to my layout per day the first couple of weeks, then 2-3 changes per week the next month or two.
I personally love the clicky sound of the Advantage 2. I switched to it some time last year after having RSI related symptoms. Since the keyboard required me to retrain muscle memory I also ended up switching to Dvorak (wrote about it at https://geekmonkey.org/learning-to-type-dvorak/).
It took a significant amount of time to get back up to speed, but some time last month it finally "clicked" and I couldn't be happier.
Definitely wish the keyboard was a bit more portable for travel, but for short stints I can stomach typing on a regular laptop keyboard.
As for the Kinesis 360: I recently saw it in use on a twitch stream (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1422298932) and it looked fantastic. Looks like the general public will have to wait until later this year to actually buy it though.
I would've used something other than clips/o-rings to dampen the sound of the switches, since that generally muddies the feel of them.
I recently switched from MX Blue to Zilent 65g (https://zealpc.net/products/zilent?variant=5894817710118) on my Moonlander in preparation for bringing it to the office. It sounds like any membrane keyboard while retaining the tactile feel of a MX Blue/Brown.
Drive-by suggestion for Boba u4's. It's very much a personal feel, but in my head to head comparison of Zilents and Boba u4's on a Moonlander, I found the Boba to be more to my liking.
IMO, there was a stronger tactile bump on the u4 and they seemed a bit quieter to me.
I actually had to get used to the Zilents from MX Blues because I found I would miss a key occasionally (especially pinky), so a stronger bump would probably be a downgrade for me. The Bobas seem to also be sold out, and I got my Zilents in a few days from 1up.
Mainly got them because, and I quote my coworker, "When we were in offices and you were across from me, I sometimes closed my door because I could hear them" (only half-joking). Still wanted a tactile switch, and I tested it next to a standard ergo keyboard a bunch of coworkers have and it was about the same noise level, so I think it'll be fine for that purpose.
I did end up ordering a second Moonlander for the home office with Kailh Bronze, though. If I end up not liking them, I still have a full set of Blues. :)
Ah, I might have misspoke. I don't mean it took stronger force to press the key, but the resulting feel of the "click" was stronger. Like a stronger thump from the click sound.
But either way, glad you're enjoying your Zilents! I love the variety of choices now available, as you can find the perfect key for you.
Ah, fair! I know they exist, although they usually only include the really popular (like all MX or Kailh) switches, but I wish someone just made a huge sampler pack of all the top picks.
It's hard to commit to one when you're spending almost a (normal) keyboard's worth of money on just the switches.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I really like hot-swap keyboards. But you're 100% correct. It's hard to test so many switches when ordering a batch can be easily $40+ USD.
I've found with my moonlander I can get by with swapping about 10 keys on one side and using it for a few days as my test, but then I'm stuck with 10 keys that I might not like.
Luckily I recently got one of my friends into mech keyboards and we have similar but different tastes so he tends to like the keys I pass on, so I just sell them to him at cost if he likes them!
Might check around and see if there's a local keyboard meetup in your area (or close enough for travel) to see if you can borrow some switches to try or sell your unwanted switches.
Another ergo keyboard I am on the lookout for is the Glove80. Been happy with the moonlander but I am really interested in something completely wireless and not as expensive as the AM Hatsu.
After a week of adjustment and constant tweaking of the layout (Wally is so nice), I have to say my Moonlander fixed most of my shoulder, forearm and wrist issues.
When people asked about the price, I told them some days I spend more time on my keyboard than on my bed.
I just wish I could put a trackpoint right between YUHJ buttons and never use my mouse again.
Maybe not quite as comfortable, but you could - as an axample - configure one of the left thumb keys as a layer switch, and then define the corresponding layer such that the right hands home row acts to move the mouse pointer.
Off topic but this post will attract Kinesis users... Does anyone know how to deal with ghosting on the Kinesis Advantage?I bought a used one but quite often it repeats the letters that I press and that's not how it's supposed to work. I haven't used it in years but it would be interesting to fix it. I know it's possible to change the controller, but how do I know if that is the issue?
If you have an original Advantage, IIRC that was one of the known issues that got fixed in the Advantage2 (or perhaps one of the Advantage2 firmware updates). I'm having trouble finding a source now, but Kinesis' site does state:
> "The firmware of the original Advantage was developed prior to the advent of modern operating systems and USB 3.0. As a result, it is not uncommon for original Advantage keyboards to become unreliable when used on newer PCs and operating systems as they were not designed with these protocols in mind." [0]
If I press 'f' it can come out as 'ffffff'. They're not dirty, but they're probably 10-15 years old. I assume this is much harder to fix than changing the keyboard controller.
You can try increasing the debounce time to paper over this issue. Requires using a replacement controller like https://github.com/kinx-project/kint/ of course :)
I have 2 KA2's, one for my personal and work rigs, respectively. I've honestly never had a problem with their noise level, they sound pretty much the same as any other modern and commonly available mechanical keyboard.
For shits-n-gigs I bought a Dactyl Ergodox from Oh My Keycaps, I'm still waiting on it to be delivered but I'm really stoked. I would never go back to a typical keyboard.
Perhaps I'm just used to mechanical switches noise (I'm typing this on a Kinesis Advantage v1 and have used the older contoured model before that), but would like to ask - once you silenced the casing noise, what was it about the switches-noise that you didn't like?
It might be a recent change, but th Advantage 2 is available with "MX Quiet red" keys that are dramatically quieter than the default. I recently switched to this one after complaints from my officemate.
Besides that, it's an excellent keyboard and I'll never, ever buy a regular keyboard again. Everything else about the design makes sense, and it's completely programmable.