> Maybe it's just me, but I don't get how any of that translates to a defense of the utilities' overall behavior.
It's not a defense of utilities, it's more about shining a light on regulatory actions.
I referenced the regulatory parts several times because that's the largest factor of what they can and cannot do. For example, in most states, an electric utility must first seek regulatory approval to raise prices even for emergency infrastructure repairs.
> Why can't they like, suggest to the relevant authorities, that it be refactored along more logical lines, where solar power generators have the appropriate checks for safety (before feeding into the grid), and are paid a significant fraction of the value their power adds to the network?
The resulting Kafka-esque bits were what regional grid operators and regulators jointly required _a long time ago_ as part of the transition to a "deregulated" electricity market (e.g. this was not enacted in response to solar).
Those bits effectively add up to "make sure your power source(s) meet these bullet points before connecting them to the grid because we don't want unreliable power... or we'll fine you heavily for non-compliance and/or revoke your authority to operate in our territory".
If you, as a private commercial entity wanted to build a large-scale solar farm (or what's more typical nowadays: a cogeneration plant), you would probably go through the exact same process you went through with maybe a handful of extra steps, but not many more.
> But if they recognize that there are perverse incentives, why aren't they pushing, however gently and tepidly, for natural fixes to the misalignment of incentives?
For a more detailed example that's relevant to your area, take a look at ERCOT's interconnection guide[1] and a review document from UT Law about the current status and legal barriers to greater adoption of renewable energy in ERCOT territory[2].
Yes, it would be ideal if the the regulators could make a carve out for non-commercial, small-scale generators and allow it at cost or a state fund to draw from (e.g. if you're the only one in your neighborhood doing net metering, then someone has to bear the cost of say, pole-mounted capacitor banks: you, the state, the utility, or some combination thereof).
> If you were in a startup that had fundamentally screwed up incentives that prevented the optimal solution, you (like most here) would probably at least start writing the document that outlines what the system should look like, and push a little towards its implementation.
There are a slew of investors who want things relaxed so they can enter these markets.
Currently, that battle is being fought (and won) by entities known as distributed generators. These tend to comprise of the folks who are selling PV systems to homeowners for $0 down in turn for you leasing it to them but the giant caveat is they keep 100% of the credits/revenue from net metering. (Think of SolarCity, etc)
And to address the primary hurdles with the startup approach are:
1. Regulators like large entities to deal with and enforce regulations, not several entities. They will push back to make their lives easier.
2. If you ask a large company (or group of investors) to fight on your behalf, they are going to fight for what benefits them not necessarily you.
There are consequences to going rogue in a regulated industry. Specifically, going against the grain is what caused Uber to be disallowed from operating its ride share services in Austin for some time.
> The resulting Kafka-esque bits were what regional grid operators and regulators jointly required _a long time ago_ as part of the transition to a "deregulated" electricity market (e.g. this was not enacted in response to solar).
That’s not the part I was referring to as Kafkaesque. I meant the part where the OP had to go though an obscured workflow and wait over months to receive slow replies just to get the process moving to be paid for their solar contribution.
If it was a long time because that was an inherent difficulty of complying with necessary safety regulations, I would not call it Kafkaesque. But here, it’s where there are obvious attempts to scare off all but the most diligent, just to get the super-watered-down version of being paid.
Ditto for stuff like “you can only trade energy within the same time bands because we have no concept of a conversion factor between different time bands”.
> I meant the part where the OP had to go though an obscured workflow and wait over months to receive slow replies just to get the process moving to be paid for their solar contribution.
This is the same workflow that commercial entities go through but employ an army of lawyers as expensive lubrication to keep the process moving.
> If it was a long time because that was an inherent difficulty of complying with necessary safety regulations...
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I think you're classifying regulations as primarily for safety reasons. The important part here is regulations determine not only safety, but who can participate, what are the required qualifications[1], who gets paid, and what they get paid[2].
> But here, it’s where there are obvious attempts to scare off all but the most diligent...
Yes, the regulations are fully meant to scare off anyone who isn't diligent (or the word they would prefer is "compliant").
> ...just to get the super-watered-down version of being paid.
This might be a bit of hyperbole, but it's probably because the end goal is to eliminate net metering[3].
The telecom industry went through the exact same thing in the late '90s, early '00s. Its version of net metering is called "reciprocal compensation" (based on call flows). Regulators and incumbent lawyers worked in tandem to chip away at this until the rates were so low it didn't matter.
> Ditto for stuff like “you can only trade energy within the same time bands because we have no concept of a conversion factor between different time bands”.
Hoo boy, look at page 4 and 5 of that TX PUC document[3] where the regulators make a decision to disallow the utilities from using meters that would allow for net metering due to time bands.
> This is the same workflow that commercial entities go through but employ an army of lawyers as expensive lubrication to keep the process moving.
And? How does that make it any more defensible in the context of the point I was making there? What is that replying to?
> Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I think you're classifying regulations as primarily for safety reasons.
No, I was referring back to your own claim[1] that some of them are for that reason:
>>> The primary things the utility (both transmission and generation) wants to avoid is backfeeding and islanding — the former is dangerous to linemen, the latter is dangerous to your neighbors’ equipment.
And then using that in a hypothetical to clarify what I would vs would not count as Kafkaesque processes intended to scare off solar users (vs satisfy an inherent domain constraint).
I don’t know what, once read in context, would give a different impression.
> This might be a bit of hyperbole, but it's probably because the end goal is to eliminate net metering[3].
Yes? That was my point all along? That rather than make token efforts to get the incentives in alignment, they’re just stubbornly fighting things that would benefit solar because “sigh, more work [as things currently stand]”.
> Yes, the regulations are fully meant to scare off anyone who isn't diligent (or the word they would prefer is "compliant").
You’re mixing two separate issues there. Yes, we want people to comply with regulations. No, we don’t want to trick people into not selling their solar because they failed to keep calling and escalating their tickets to an agency that ghosts them. I was referring to the latter, and for some reason you’re redefining the point to refer to the former, and then acting like I don’t understand why we’d want people who can follow regulations.
> Hoo boy, look at page 4 and 5 of that TX PUC document[3] where the regulators make a decision to disallow the utilities from using meters that would allow for net metering due to time bands.
I’m not sure what that means since it’s not a coherent claim, as I understand the original issue, which was whether you can apply credit for power supplied in one time to power drawn at a different time *on your bill.
So “crediting you for your power contribution” is an accounting-level concept, not a hardware-level concept. You trade energy at one time for energy at another time via accounting; you don’t need special meters for it beyond their ability to know when the power passed through. (Unless you’re saying that they prohibited meters with any awareness of time, which is doubtful since they still would need to use billing periods.)
> And? How does that make it any more defensible in the context of the point I was making there? What is that replying to?
> Yes? That was my point all along? That rather than make token efforts to get the incentives in alignment, they’re just stubbornly fighting things that would benefit solar because “sigh, more work [as things currently stand]”.
It's not defensible. I'm stating what exists today and it's uniform for GiantPowerMegaco who wants to bring on megawatts of capacity or the Doe who just wants to light up a few panels on their roof.
My overall points have been a) this is entrenched for a long time and b) the utilities are not the primary ones making the rules. Regular people may be noticing the friction now due to increased touch points via solar, but it's not in response to solar.
They did not calcify overnight. No, that doesn't make it right but it does make it harder to change. So things that are long entrenched but need change usually get the "sigh, more work" response and lots of push back.
> No, I was referring back to your own claim[1] that some of them are for that reason
> ...you’re redefining the point to refer to the former, and then acting like I don’t understand why we’d want people who can follow regulations.
I'm not redefining the point but I should have referenced that I was reacting to the callout of safety but the other aspects play into it just as much.
It's not my intention to imply you don't want people who can follow regulations -- it's more about clarifying that if one has to play in a regulated space you accept the whole pie and all its hangups, literal or figurative. Or not participate until the pie becomes more palatable.
The reason I mention law firms that operate in this space is they are generally ranked for their experience and ability to navigate around these confusing, slow, or non-existent responses from these agencies.
> “Crediting you for your power contribution” is an accounting-level concept, not a hardware-level concept. you don’t need special meters for it beyond their ability to know when the power passed through.
I guess my personal hangup here is on not allowing meters to rollback or "reverse".
The portion of the document I referenced is where the PUC says you cannot use a rollback meter for net metering but must instead use a meters specifically capable of measuring in-flow and out-flow.
They go on to state the reason for measuring out-flow is to determine when the energy was made available to calculate the wholesale market price at that given point in time.
It's not a defense of utilities, it's more about shining a light on regulatory actions.
I referenced the regulatory parts several times because that's the largest factor of what they can and cannot do. For example, in most states, an electric utility must first seek regulatory approval to raise prices even for emergency infrastructure repairs.
> Why can't they like, suggest to the relevant authorities, that it be refactored along more logical lines, where solar power generators have the appropriate checks for safety (before feeding into the grid), and are paid a significant fraction of the value their power adds to the network?
The resulting Kafka-esque bits were what regional grid operators and regulators jointly required _a long time ago_ as part of the transition to a "deregulated" electricity market (e.g. this was not enacted in response to solar).
Those bits effectively add up to "make sure your power source(s) meet these bullet points before connecting them to the grid because we don't want unreliable power... or we'll fine you heavily for non-compliance and/or revoke your authority to operate in our territory".
If you, as a private commercial entity wanted to build a large-scale solar farm (or what's more typical nowadays: a cogeneration plant), you would probably go through the exact same process you went through with maybe a handful of extra steps, but not many more.
> But if they recognize that there are perverse incentives, why aren't they pushing, however gently and tepidly, for natural fixes to the misalignment of incentives?
For a more detailed example that's relevant to your area, take a look at ERCOT's interconnection guide[1] and a review document from UT Law about the current status and legal barriers to greater adoption of renewable energy in ERCOT territory[2].
Yes, it would be ideal if the the regulators could make a carve out for non-commercial, small-scale generators and allow it at cost or a state fund to draw from (e.g. if you're the only one in your neighborhood doing net metering, then someone has to bear the cost of say, pole-mounted capacitor banks: you, the state, the utility, or some combination thereof).
> If you were in a startup that had fundamentally screwed up incentives that prevented the optimal solution, you (like most here) would probably at least start writing the document that outlines what the system should look like, and push a little towards its implementation.
There are a slew of investors who want things relaxed so they can enter these markets.
Currently, that battle is being fought (and won) by entities known as distributed generators. These tend to comprise of the folks who are selling PV systems to homeowners for $0 down in turn for you leasing it to them but the giant caveat is they keep 100% of the credits/revenue from net metering. (Think of SolarCity, etc)
And to address the primary hurdles with the startup approach are:
1. Regulators like large entities to deal with and enforce regulations, not several entities. They will push back to make their lives easier.
2. If you ask a large company (or group of investors) to fight on your behalf, they are going to fight for what benefits them not necessarily you.
There are consequences to going rogue in a regulated industry. Specifically, going against the grain is what caused Uber to be disallowed from operating its ride share services in Austin for some time.
1: https://www.ercot.com/services/rq/integration
2: https://utcle.org/elibrary/download/practice_area_id/32/a/51...