Ask HN: Would you give up 100% more salary as a junior SWE/MLE?

[makedecisions]

I'm losing my mind over a luxury problem: Currently a PhD student in the south of Germany. A few month ago, I went through a difficult phase in life and suddenly considered not going for an industry career and missing out on the money to be a huge mistake. So I started to shop around for offers and recently got hit up with a very generous Junior SWE offer: 115k TC (currently 55k).

However, in the meantime I was also able to find my motivation again for continuing the PhD. My main project is dealing with the application of computer vision and deep learning. While not overly excited about the specific topic, I appreciate the freedom, the intellectually challenging work, even teaching. Most of all, I enjoy to really become an expert in a domain.

I'm completely lost on how to proceed now: My stomach feeling is to decline the offer. It is in an unrelated field, so I'd have to give up on deep learning which sucks a lot. However, it is also a fantastic salary for Germany. I'm waking up at night sweating bullets about giving up so much money, missing out on the kick-start of an industry career. But I'm also sweating bullets about not working in machine learning anymore. I've already put so much energy into machine learning and fear that, once I switch away, the path back to it won't be easy.

"Money is just a hygiene factor" seems like a good perspective once you already made bank. Have you given up on a good salary early in your career? What is your experience? What would you recommend?

[jraph]

As long as your salary is enough to live comfortably, do what best makes sense for you. You'll probably be happier taking the path that is the most meaningful to you.

Now, personally, if you got your motivation back, I'd advise to go ahead and finish this PhD! You'll have plenty of offers in the future, probably including more meaningful ones. We are in a field where job offers are not missing. You only have one PhD (usually) and you don't want to regret having spoiled it your whole life (of course, if it is not working out, get the hell outta there). Your PhD is (supposed to be) your personal work. Your rules and your ideas. At a level your job offer probably won't reach. You'll be able to try a software developer position later, there's no rush.

(as someone who did a PhD and is now working as a software developer).

(and yes, I did decline a job offer with a much higher salary that my current one, but I'm happy to have made this call: my salary is still decent, and I do something meaningful to me, and geographically close to where my friends are)

I wish you the best. There's no wrong answer. Relax and enjoy life.

[makedecisions → jraph]

> You'll have plenty of offers in the future, probably including more meaningful ones.

That would be great. I'm sure that one can and will find stimulating and interesting work without the PhD too - sometimes the ivory tower of academia makes it seem different though. What worries me more is the aspect of leaving machine learning for a different field, and then not finding my way back later on.

> (and yes, I did decline a job offer with a much higher salary that my current one, but I'm happy to have made this call: my salary is still decent, and I do something meaningful to me, and geographically close to where my friends are)

Glad to hear it all worked out for you!

> I wish you the best. There's no wrong answer. Relax and enjoy life.

Thanks mate! It sometimes feels so overwhelmingly difficult to navigate life in your early career. Appreciate it!

[jraph → makedecisions]

> I'm sure that one can and will find stimulating and interesting work without the PhD too - sometimes the ivory tower of academia makes it seem different though

I know, as a former PhD who is now a software developer :-)

I would not recommend a PhD to everyone, but your message reads like you are enjoying the field and the intellectual challenge, and that's what I'm basing my answer on.

[karmakaze]

I think your gut has it right. The grass is not always greener. You've been doing your PhD and know its pros/cons and you very much enjoy the aspects of continuing and becoming an expert in machine learning. There will be no shortage of demand for this. By asking the question, it seems that you are financially capable of passing the SWE offer and continuing your research. The missing out on income in a position easily filled my many others is FOMO, as mentioned in by others. Note that the F is fear, and you should decide by passion rather than avoidance. Fear is only good for planning and if financially viable to continue should already have been addressed. If you're comparing with others who are taking these well paying positions, look at it from the point of view from the future as you have outlined: what area would you like to be actively working in?

[makedecisions → karmakaze]

> you should decide by passion rather than avoidance.

This feels like great advice. Thank you for taking the time.

[jfim]

Have you looked into other opportunities that would combine your interests? If not, it's easy to have a "scarcity mindset" where there are only a few options available, and each option seems like a life-changing one.

For example, you mention that your career would involve giving up machine learning. There are definitely jobs in Germany where you could do both, here's an example of one: https://www.argo.ai/careers/open-positions/?gh_jid=3560509 (disclaimer, I work there).

In my opinion, there will always be opportunities for interesting work. There will be opportunities for work if you complete your PhD, and there will also be opportunities if you don't, so pick whichever route you think will make you happiest in the long term. Don't pick an option out of fear of missing out on a job, there will be more in the future.

[makedecisions → jfim]

> Have you looked into other opportunities that would combine your interests?

I did. I also got offers in "my" field, just not such good ones. Perhaps got carried away a bit by the other offer i received. I'll have a look at Argo, thanks for sharing!

> Don't pick an option out of fear of missing out on a job, there will be more in the future.

Feels like so much of the career discussion in CS is concentrated on TC optimization - it's good to remember that one can choose to optimize for different things too.

[jfim → makedecisions]

> Feels like so much of the career discussion in CS is concentrated on TC optimization - it's good to remember that one can choose to optimize for different things too.

It's easy to optimize for total compensation, since that's an easy to measure metric. If job A pays 20% more than job B, then one can easily evaluate that. It's harder to see that job A might be working on ethically dubious projects, may have longer work hours, more stress, or might just be at a company that's more successful than the one that has job B.

Best of luck on your decision, and feel free to reach out if you want.

[pxllh]

I've been in a similar situation, probably not as extreme but nonetheless. Some things I would recommend you considering:

a) Consider the take-home after tax, and compare that as it does make the numbers a bit more realistic.

b) It's not just money, it's time and energy. If you're not entirely sold on the idea (which it sounds like you aren't), then it's probably going to be more enjoyable for you to continue your PhD.

c) Offers come and go, and you've got an idea of what's possible. Maybe you won't get the same again in the future, but maybe you'll find something mid-way post-PhD which will give you satisfaction of work and better pay.

Don't focus on the money, focus on the fact that you're going to be spending the majority of most days doing this thing, and do what matters to you.

[makedecisions → pxllh]

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts! I know that you are right: I can always quit the PhD in the future. But realistically, it's pretty difficult to get an offer from one of the bigger tech companies with high salary as a Junior. So it's FOMO for both options and unfortunately I can't split myself in half. Painful to think about the opportunity costs the PhD has, but also painful to feel like giving up on the opportunity to gain more knowledge.

[throwawayarnty]

I would say it depends on how “good” (defined by academia) you are. If you think you’re a super star, then academia all the way. If you think you’re about average (especially at the phd stage), then industry may be more attractive.

Being a successful academic (eg consistent publications in top conferences or journals) brings a qualitatively better life style than SWE at a company.

You are globally recognised as an expert, can travel to meet like minded colleagues all over the world, and have full control of how you spend your time.

If however you’re struggling in academia, then it can be brutal because you spend more and more of your time trying to attract resources to continue your work.

[mellosouls]

There will be plenty of golden offers in years to come; the PhD is pretty one off, you won't be capable of doing it within a few years, or at least it will be far more difficult intellectually and energy-wise, let alone considering other life commitments you may have. Having a PhD will also be a significant differentiator for some of those golden offers.

That doesn't mean a PhD is right for you, or you shouldn't take a once in a lifetime offer in the unlikely event that is what this is, but FOMO can be a very strong and misleading signal - and fortunately you seem to be aware of that.

[cm2012]

If it's a brand name tech company, like faang, it opens up many doors in your future to have the name on your resume. It makes it easier to get grants in the future. You'll also get practical experience that will help your science work.

Just make sure to keep living on your PHD salary, put the rest to savings. If you start living on the higher salary you'll never be able to go back to your PHD again.

[jraph → cm2012]

I can't imagine getting back to a PhD after a few years in the industry. Maybe after a few months, yes, but that's probably not worth it and probably not a good look on the resume.

What's more, your current PhD topic might be outdated in a few years.

[makedecisions → cm2012]

Not faang but still brand name, like snowflake, databricks, ...

Grants are not really my concern here. I agree that industry experience could be great to increase productivity for a PhD, but I don't think that there will be a way back once I quit.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[bjourne]

Tough decision. No one would blame you for quitting your phd to double your salary. Money isn't everything but that is a hell of a lot of money! Have you worked as a developer before? Because working as a phd student is way different from working in the software industry. You may hate it. And returning to finish a phd is probably very difficult.

[erehweb]

There's a book I like called "Stumbling Upon Happiness", which says that people are generally happier with making changes than staying put - even if things go wrong, they are very good at rationalizing them. So that would argue for taking the SWE offer as a tie-breaker.

Re the money, you might well be able to command a much higher salary as a PhD in computer vision / deep learning, which would be an argument for continuing the PhD.

The part that gives me pause is that you are not really excited about your PhD topic. It's a long process, so I think you will want to have that excitement to be able to sustain you through doing a PhD.

[makedecisions → erehweb]

Interesting perspective, haven't thought about letting my brain manipulate me into thinking I did the right offer after I make my decision. Thanks for the book, I'll have a look at it!

> Re the money, you might well be able to command a much higher salary as a PhD in computer vision / deep learning, which would be an argument for continuing the PhD.

There are so many factors that influence that _might_: research topic, network, publications, ... It's a bet on an uncertain future. Though I tend to think similar.

> that you are not really excited about your PhD topic

True. But I am excited about deep learning, and I can appreciate the opportunity to learn so much more about it while working on this project.

[kurtbuilds]

There's a good chance 115k TC is significantly less than what you could be getting.

I'm currently building a network of domain expert mentors, where companies can connect with experts for advising their existing team to solve business problems. Think of it like very low commitment consulting. It might be a great way to get a better feel for industry (and the salary you can command) before making a hard commitment.

If that sounds interesting, shoot me an email. My email is <my username> at gmail dot com.

[physicsguy]

Finish the PhD. I didn’t think it mattered that much, but now I’m a few years down the line (UK), I’m glad I did it. In certain companies, having one really matters.

[d--b]

A PhD in deep learning could get you a job with comparable salary (or way more if you moved outside of Germany).

That said, there is always the risk that the space gets crowded, or research gets too expensive, or innovation slows down. I think this is particularly risky in vision-related AI.

I personally was going to go for a financial mathematics degree, cause that was interesting and lucrative in 2006. That field almost doesn't exist anymore...

[dqpb]

I considered going for a PhD and went into industry instead.

The salary has been awesome, I’ve learned more than I ever did at University, and I’ve largely been able to focus on the topics I’m interested in. And yet, my recommendation is that you probably should complete your PhD.

Ultimately, taking a job means selling your autonomy to somebody else. It’s very hard not to be ashamed of that when you really think about it.

[natalyarostova]

Try not to feel this is your one chance and you only have two options. You can get offers again. In addition, you could get work as a machine learning engineer in industry, either now or in a few years. You could spend another year doing deep learning, but dedicate 10% of your time to networking in industry and staying good at interviews, then reevaluate later.

[fancyfredbot]

I'll give a cynical view based only on money. The opportunity to obtain a phd is worth more than 50k. There will always be well paying tech jobs, but although getting a PhD later in life is possible, giving up the salary once you are used to it may be practically impossible. Meanwhile the PhD will likely open up options for you later in your career which might otherwise be closed. You should do it now because otherwise you never will and it'll cost you in the long run. So that's the money grabbing view. If you take into account the satisfaction of doing original research too, it becomes a no brainer to finish the phd, in my view.

[rootsudo]

Take the money and the career.

[faangiq]

ML is basically a meme anyway. Do something real with your time.