It is jarring to need to remember different keystrokes by the compositor if you use more than one computer, especially if they're not all linux. Why do you think its worth all this pain?
Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression. I hope someone makes x.org in rust
Which I could agree with you- I dislike change too, I fight systemd because I don’t see it benefiting me.
But this is a bit silly, you keep coming up with rotating surface level complaints but the main reason X11 was replaced was because it was architecturally broken not because they wanted to solve specific issues.
That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland.
Things like nvidia forcing people to use X11 have caused distro maintainers to do double the work to maintain backwards compatibility; which means it hasn’t had as much love as X11 over the years either.
Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux.
That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not.
>That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland.
Rust has plenty of naysayers, as does pipewire. People hate Apple stuff with a passion, but they are all good. Wayland works on GNOME, which is a fact. I even said if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME. The reason it has no community is because it sucks.
>Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux.
You don't get to decide what the direction of desktop linux is, or what people want to do with their open source software. I could say that the dolphin is the stupidest animal in the world, and nobody would take me seriously. Wayland sucks, if tomorrow x.org didn't exist, I would not continue to use linux. There is no benefit for most users in this thread. I even said I used it on a touch device to get rotation working on my touch tablet, but you ignored that because I have a different preference than you. Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression if doublespeaking as regression in features is going forward.
>That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
There is a new maintainer, I will continue to use the best tools for myself, which will not be wayland for any non touch computer. Wayland design is... good It's taken over a decade to add a fraction of x.org features, random plugins needed to make it imitate x11, and with less features it still crashes? If it such a required architeture change, why is it making everything worst? What does forward even mean, less features with more crashes? No thanks. If it was so great why does it still suck compared to the so called dire x.org?
>It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! Nobody wants to use crappier software with less features despite the dire "problems" of x.org, they made a rational choice, which bothers you so much. Why does it matter what I run? You look down on everyone's problem as invalid, calls our mentality wrong, and can't even define what forward is, or why anyone cares, because nothing you say is a benefit matters. Don't be suprised if wayland never gets used or doesn't ever gain traction, other half baked projects like btrfs that are inferior to even older software are not going to be used over better alternatives.
You are dishonest about screen tearing being an issue, and calling my custom hotkeys "stealing keystrokes", saying its fundamentally broken when wayland breaks more things, and instead of the project acknowledging user needs, they ignore it and somehow wonder why nobody want to use it.
I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken, it has less features, no gains to non graphics or productivity, no benefits and more drawbacks to most users, the wonderful future of the "forward thinking" design that strips useful features and ignores what people like about x.org is beneficial to everyone. No, it is inferior in every way except for gyroscope screen rotation and slightly smoother movements, something that is compartively worthless to the suite of useful x.org features.
> I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not.
The ecosystem around bicycles is much better than the ecosystem around trucks.
You are tasked with getting to and from work every day, in the beginning it's just you who travels, but over time you have more and more things to carry with you- shovels and such.
You buy a trailer.
You find that with your trailer it's more difficult to see what is coming up behind you, so you buy side mirrors.
You find that in the cold it's difficult to keep your hands warm, so you buy hand warmers, and lights on a dynamo.
Eventually your bike is quite heavy, you carry much and requires much more effort to operate.
But it has a lot of "features".
This is the sunk cost fallacy in action.
> Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise!
My userspace is absolutely not broken. Arguably it's less broken than yours but you've patched around the issues or are blind to them.
Sway crashes for me less often than Xorg did; but I understand that Xorg and Wayland are not the same, and that took some getting used to, and indeed it was uncomfortable in the beginning.
You are passionately arguing from a place of absolute ignorance, I have used both. I have used both professionally. I have used both for years.
Yes, I replaced a lot of my normal programs.
Yes, Wayland has issues, many of which could have been addressed if people weren't conservative. Not that I begrudge them for it, I believe choice is good.
But, it's absolutely ignorant to claim that X11 has features. X11 does not have features, it has people willing to hack on it and an architecture that allows disgusting and ugly hacks to work.
You might like that, I absolutely despise it- because malicious software exists (and I use it), things like Zoom which if given the opportunity would love to run as root and capture all my keystrokes.
Things like Teams which on Android devices managed to block 911 calls.
Things like Chrome which is attempting to be my userland.
Ultimately, I trust my windowing system more than I trust random programs I may run to bind my hotkeys.
> I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken.
Wayland is not "fundamentally broken" it's been working for me professionally for years. The "features" you cite so often are non-features "my cursor can change color!" which are not inherent in x.org at all.
Wayland "breaks" things that are designed to work exclusively with X11. Much like how graphics cards "break things" that are designed to work on a serial console.
> Yes, Wayland has issues, many of which could have been addressed if people weren't conservative. Not that I begrudge them for it, I believe choice is good.
Them the developers should do something about it, instead of calling a comparatively crippled compositor complete. If choice is good, respect everyone who says x.org is better, instead of trying to scare drums or use vague words like “progress”. Progress towards what? Lower Linux satisfaction?
If you think I’m a troll because I refuse to lie about how the useless wayland is actually good and don’t engage in an encho chamber of praise, you need to listen to complaints and respect opinions of others. Your analogy is of it being a truck instead of a bike, it’s hard to take you seriously unless you’re trolling, that is unless it’s a plastic toy truck. You bring up nonexistent threats like Android not calling 911, and demonstrate it’s being a no threat, and an irrelevant threat.
Don’t joyfully call everyone to switch from fine software and enjoy their new crippled and child proof space progress and applause the broken userspace for the sake of scaling, slightly smoother movements and colored cursors. Respect other people who don’t like the same thing you do instead of calling them wrong. You wouldn’t do this to a sexual preference, not Thor compositor.
That you can't steal keystrokes from other programs?
Screensharing? (which is an adoption issue for clients, not a "problem" with Wayland)
Your X11 programs (not hacks) already work as if they were X11 with Xwayland, but it has the same drawbacks as running it natively with X11. (with a small bonus that it's rootless... unlike X11 which is assuredly not rootless by default).
Do you honestly believe that wayland developers should reimplement all software that has leveraged and abused the X11 system? Seems asinine, what are your _real needs_ that Wayland isn't providing support for?
You call it "hacks and abuses", but it's actually extensibility. Which Wayland kind of lacks (you need support for all of this in the compositor, rather than 3rd party processes being able to provide it).
> Do you honestly believe that wayland developers should reimplement all software that has leveraged and abused the X11 system?
Most definitely not, but what they should do is just to _allow_ the continued existence of all the software which has leveraged X11 in their garden, if the garden is to have any kind of success. And not as 2nd grade citizens.
The analogy is not correct, because in the case at hand, it is _by design_ that X11 allows this -- the entire "mechanism not policy" thing.
And the problem with "it's potentially dangerous" is that you can use it as justification for removing any feature, so much that it doesn't really have any meaning left.
X11 definitely wasn’t designed for this. It’s a byproduct of its (poor) design and the fact you can directly interfere with the renderer.
It’s the same as the c64 not protecting memory addresses so you can poke memory to fuck with the video output, which people did, but the c64 is not a good computing platform in the modern age almost because of this.
You might be better served by actually looking how X11 works, with quirks and what it was originally designed for, I promise you that your hair will stand on end.
I should note: “potentially dangerous” is seriously downplaying a genuine problem linux had with keyloggers- it just wasn’t overly common because Linux is not a big enough platform for trojans to target, but it was known to be easy. Hugely easy.
> You might be better served by actually looking how X11 works, with quirks and what it was originally designed for, I promise you that your hair will stand on end.
You are confusing things. Where can you "interfere" with the renderer? What you can do is _replace_ the renderer. This is one extension point Wayland _forces_ on you, so what is your complain exactly?
Manipulating things around using the ways provided for things to be manipulated is not a quirk. The server allows other processes to render to windows they don't own because this is how you implement decorations and the like. The server allows you to read the contents of windows you don't own because this is how you implement screen grabbers and color pickers. The server allows any two processes connected to it to communicate in any way because that is how clipboards and things like that are implemented. This is all by design.
And that is the problem. If all of this was still possible with Wayland (WITHOUT having to patch the compositor), I'm certain there won't be as many complains.
But no; they tried to fix "security" (for some definition of security) at the same time and thus had to spend a decade to see any hint of adoption. And face a lot of resistance.
At least fetch the UNIX haters handbook if you want to see a minimally valid criticism to X...
> but it was known to be easy. Hugely easy.
Still is. Wayland or not. Therefore: Yes, I will downplay this issue.
You would need an even more radical design to make it not trivial on Linux (e.g. passing individual input device descriptors to the process owning the focused window or the like, and then make each process a different user or god knows). Basically: something like Qubes (which used to do it with X11). And then face all the "it's not working!" complains because you break even more things.
It is jarring to need to remember different keystrokes by the compositor if you use more than one computer, especially if they're not all linux. Why do you think its worth all this pain?
Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression. I hope someone makes x.org in rust