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Tell HN: Can't Leave Canada After Nov 30th, If Not Vaccinated
29 points by xil3 on Nov 30, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 51 comments
So, after Nov 30th (today), you can no longer board planes, trains, or pretty much any other type of transportation to leave the country, if you are not vaccinated.

The US has also blocked their border to the unvaccinated, so anyone not vaccinated in Canada is pretty much a prisoner.

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Not looking to start any fights, but I do think this is getting a bit crazy.

And if anyone knows of any other way to leave the country, I'm all ears. My family is strongly considering leaving the country to go somewhere else, where we're not treated like second class citizens.




> anyone not vaccinated in Canada is pretty much a prisoner.

They can't block US nationals, and they don't.

> U.S. citizens and Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) who are eligible to travel but are not fully vaccinated will need to provide proof of a negative COVID-19 test one (1) day before their flight’s departure.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/...

It appears for canada there are many exceptions to this policy. I noticed the "If Canada is Not your Final Destination" here

https://travel.gc.ca/travel-covid/travel-restrictions/domest...


Assuming that Omicron (or the next variant) is more contagious than Delta, then pretty much everybody who's not a hermit will either be vaccinated, recovered/recovering or dead in the next couple of years. Possibly more than one of these categories, unfortunately. That said, why not improve the odds for you and others AND reduce the ability of the virus to spread to naive hosts...

And if you don't like any of the current vaccines, then you're certainly not going to like the disease itself. The goal is to keep people out of hospital and to build up sufficient resistance to (hopefully) turn COVID into a bad flu or better. It seems too variable to go away at this instant - we've not gotten rid of flu but it's been less fatal.


Israel might be a safe country to go to. The Orthodox there would make it very difficult for that country to enact a vaccine mandate.


Israel has one of the stricter policies including "vaccination passports" that require a booster to be valid and must be presented at social gatherings like restaurants. International travelers to Israel must provide proof of full vaccination prior to being admitted.


For a while they allowed testing negative or recovery from a prior infection to count for the green pass. Did they change that?


Foreign travelers are currently banned altogether, but you are correct that a antibodies test was also accepted prior to the current ban.


Can you still walk across the southern border? Perhaps at one of the areas which is unguarded?


I can work anywhere, as I work completely remote. We have thought about places like Mexico; but how do we get there?


If Mexico is like most countries you'll need to apply for a work permit or long-term residency permit, you won't be able to go there and work (long term at least, or legally) as a tourist. So apply today, travel in 6-12 months when you have the permit and the travel restrictions are relaxed.


While that might be more or less technically true it is certainly not legally true.


You could charter a boat?

You could also take the ferry to Newfoundland and then one to St. Pierre and Michelon, ie France and fly out of there. I don't know if France has restrictions.

I definitely disagree with the situation as well, but it's a global problem, better to stay and try and change things.


I thought Newfoundland wasn't accepting anyone in, unless that recently changed? Chartering a boat was something I thought about.


Of course it’s horrifying, especially since these actions are supported by a majority of the population.

There are a few countries with little or no entry restrictions. Mexico in particular is fairly close to Canada and is open. If you are able to work remotely, I’d strongly suggest looking into it. Canada is not going to change its policies anytime soon, sadly.

I’m not sure what the restrictions are, but can they actually prevent you from leaving if you are flying internationally? What about for a medical or other “official” purpose?

Edit: seriously scary that this post is flagged. Not cool.


Yeah, this is some serious mass hysteria, and it's not getting better.

They are pinning one side against the other, and it's propelled by the government.

You can't even search COVID related terms in Google without it being regulated. Try searching anything related to anti-vax. They have pushed up all the government sites at the top of the rankings for any searching that have the word COVID in it. Things are bonkers.


Indeed. Any mild criticism is immediately flagged, downvoted, and deleted. I don’t care how serious the pandemic is, it doesn’t justify mass hysteria.

As I said, I don’t see this changing anytime soon. Your best bet is likely Mexico and/or a way into certain US states like Texas or Florida. Not sure if you can get a permanent residence card from abroad, but it may be something to investigate.


I posted this on here because I thought I can open an intellectual dialog, where we can have a mature chat. Instead, my post gets flagged, for who knows what.

Seriously losing all respect for this site - it's the same as every other place that is supporting this mass hysteria.

At this point, not sure what to do.


Try posting / searching here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/


Thanks, I've posted it there as well.


This is great.

IMO, selfishness and knee-jerk reactions to a very, VERY serious pandemic will only serve to prolong lockdown measures, however you feel about them.


Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. We're looking for more thoughtful conversation than this. Another way of putting it is that we want reflective comments, not reflexive ones.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


I never said it wasn't serious; but I'm also pro-choice.

We know nothing about the long term effects of this vaccine, or how it will affect our bodies when it comes to dependencies. I understand that millions have taken it, but that still doesn't show me any long term tests.

So I'm selfish because I want to protect myself and my family from something that I don't trust? I'm not anti-vax - we have all our shots. If after say 5 years, it turns out that there are no long term side effects, then I'm fine taking the vaccine.


If you don't trust mRNA vaccines despite a decade of delivery history and almost 50 years of research, then why are you not taking the J&J vaccine? It is a traditional platform and there are almost 90 years of history of large scale flu vaccinations using the same techniques.

How long do you plan to wait to get a 5g phone, or do you have one already and are just going to accept that it is safe because experts have told you so? If you have a 5g phone blasting "unstudied radiation into your brain" how is that any different?


What's going to happen the day you meet someone who doesn't want the vaccine or a 5G phone? Is your brain just going to combust, or something? Are you okay?


I see you have run out of goalposts to move and rebuttals to offer and have, as expected, degenerated into personal attacks.

When I encounter someone who won't use a 5g phone or get vaccinated because "the government" or "it is new" or "news max told me not to", rather than my head exploding I wonder how we got to a place where political loyalty trumps reason and how otherwise reasonable people can be so easy duped by conspiracy theories.

But hey go ahead and get buy best you can without getting vaccinated. Just don't complain about the ramifications as there are safe solutions. Hell go get infected and get an antibodies based passport if you really fear a flu shot based on 90 years of safe and effective delivery.


I didn't mention my vaccination status or any conspiracy theories, those are your projections. You seem triggered by this debate, so I don't think a productive conversation is frankly possible. If you honesty think rejecting new technology is only based in "conspiratorial" thinking, there's really nothing to talk about.


I don't really care about the 5g phones. The difference is that I can choose not to buy them, and it won't affect my life at all.


The point about the 5g phones was that like mRNA shots it is "new tech" that some people trust and use while other people fear. I would have thought that a cautious person like yourself would have waited a decade before accepting that they were safe. Setting the phone thing aside though...

What is stopping you from taking the J&J vaccine then? It is manufactured with traditional processes and is the kind flu shot that has been around for 90 years.

I see though from your comment that what might be the root of it is that you resent the mandate. I'll remind you that you have taken many shots much more required than this one. Like many countries, You can't get educated in Canada without a battery of them. They are part of a legally mandated social contract that people (like it or not) will man up and be vaccinated, not just for themselves, but for the good of the nation.

Is that not the very definition of a patriot and first class citizen?


Another user has answered those concerns last time it came up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29206305


Not sure if “straw man” is appropriate here but the answers from that user are on the verge of patronizing for sure.


Yeah, I read all of that.

We still have no definitive proof of what will happen in the next 5-10 years to people that have taken the vaccine. Just because someone said that there is nothing that can happen based on the science, doesn't mean it's definitive - it's just conjecture.


I get your point, but to uproot your entire family and existence over this is quite a stretch.

Nobody wants the vaccine, but we take it not for ourselves, but our friends, families, co-workers and people in our community.

The whole "I don't want the vaccine because I don't know what's in it" is a largely American theme that you find less in the rest of the developed world where people are more focused on the health of the community.

You want to move away to establish yourself in another community, but do not want to participate in the well-being of that community.

If this is where your heart is at you might do better to join some off the grid, eco living type community. It will give you more of what you are looking for.


> We know nothing about the long term effects of this vaccine

Or of the virus. Tho we do know the virus screws with a lot of important cellular functions in the short term.


[flagged]


Everyone has their own opinions. In my mind, it's not a 'small risk'.

This has nothing to do with other countries - I'm talking about Canada not allowing ANYONE (with very few exemptions) from leaving the country on flights, boats, trains. I wouldn't be going to other countries that don't want the 'unvaccinated'.

I don't blame you for being brainwashed by your own government into thinking one side is evil. All you have to do is listen to all the false news from the media outlets, and you'll be indoctrinated day after day. All governments and the media are doing is pinning people against each other, nothing more.

We should be able to have mature conversations without being attacked for a differing opinion.


Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how right you are or feel you are on a topic. It just makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


Just flag or delete the thread then. The parent commenter didn't say anything egregious or explicit, they were just correctly pointing out that countries have perfectly legitimate reasons for not wanting unvaccinated visitors traveling through them. If we aren't allowed to disagree with OP in the slightest, then what's the point of keeping the thread around?


The GP comment was aggressive and name-calling on an inflammatory topic. That's way over the line, not "the slightest".

Of course people have strong emotions about these things. That's natural, and the site guidelines are also very clear. For example: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


> So, after Nov 30th (today), you can no longer board planes, trains, or pretty much any other type of transportation to leave the country, if you are not vaccinated.

Even inside the country from what I understand. Free movement is no longer a right it seems.

Keep in mind that the current leader's father decided to suspend constitutional rights (because that's a thing over there!?) for dubious reasons back in the 70's. So it's not exactly new.


The FLQ Crisis was a real thing and members of my family in the Canadian military were impacted. At the time, the war measures act was supported by 90% of the population. Perhaps you should take a few minutes to read up on it and then imagine what would happen if Florida separatists kidnapped and then killed Ron DeSantis. How do you imagine the US would have responded?


Wasn't most of the evidence just planted there by the feds?

They ended up not being able to prosecute no?


Like the mail bombs and the dead Deputy Premier in the trunk of a car? No, that was not "planted" by the feds.

While most of those initially arrested under the war measures act were released without charges, more than 60 were charged and more than 30 with crimes serious enough to deny them bail.

Five of the kidnappers ultimately traded their victim for a ride to Cuba.


> Like the mail bombs

But the feds did admit to that.

> While most of those initially arrested under the war measures act were released without charges, more than 60 were charged and more than 30 with crimes serious enough to deny them bail.

That's not good. Arresting and denying bail is one thing (and apparently it was done for arbitrary reasons because why not), getting a real conviction to stand the test of court is an other one. I mean, sure, if you stop and frisk every black person at a busy intersection without cause you'll eventually find an "illegal enough" item to charge one of them.

> Five of the kidnappers ultimately traded their victim for a ride to Cuba.

Alleged kidnappers and alleged victims. The court couldn't prove anything. And honestly, Canada is playing the same games by keeping known terrorists like Omar Khader from getting extradited and tried for the murders they committed. For political reasons of course. So could these individuals really expect a fair trial with constitutional rights suspended? Don't think so.


But the feds did admit to that.

I would like to see your source on that because I can list a bunch that attribute the bombings that killed 6 people to members of the FLQ. https://www.cbc.ca/history/EPISCONTENTSE1EP16CH1PA4LE.html

That's not good. Arresting and denying bail is one thing (and apparently it was done for arbitrary reasons because why not), getting a real conviction to stand the test of court is an other one. I mean, sure, if you stop and frisk every black person at a busy intersection without cause you'll eventually find an "illegal enough" item to charge one of them.

I'm not sure what your point is here. The government arrested people they believed to be active members in a domestic terror cell. A group that was at the time threatening to kill a kidnapped British ambassador unless the Canadians released more than 20 previously convicted criminals. I would hardly call that "arbitrary". The US still holds people at Guantanamo for less.

Alleged kidnappers and alleged victims. The court couldn't prove anything. So could these individuals really expect a fair trial with constitutional rights suspended? Don't think so.

What are you talking about? The kidnappers published their demands and the government negotiated with them then the FLQ kidnapped (and subsequently murdered) the the government's most senior minister. The government effectively ended the Act in less then 3 months. It took the US more than 18 months to get a plea out of the "QAnon Shaman" with no trial. There was never going to be a criminal trial agaist members of the FLQ within the window of the Act.

With respect to Khader, who exactly would Canada extradite him to? The US had him for 8 years at Guantanamo then gave him to Canada. Are you suggesting that they want him back because if they do they should issue a formal request. Note that defendants in civil proceedings are not candidates for international extradition.

After his arrest, Jacques Cossette-Trudel negotiated the safe passage of FLQ members to Cuba in exchange for the British ambassador. Given that they had already kill a hostage, was reason to suspect they would do it again. These facts are not in dispute.

All cell members who fled to Cuba were eventually sentenced and served time in Canada for their crimes.

- Paul Rose sentenced to life imprisonment for kidnapping and murder

- Francis Simard sentenced to life for murder

- Bernard Lortie sentenced to 20 years for kidnapping

- Jacques Rose sentenced to eight years for being an accessory

- Jacques Cossette-Trudel sentenced to two years in prison (after returning from Cuba)

- Louise Lanctôt sentenced to two years in prison (after returning from Cuba)

- Jacques Lanctôt served two years in prison (after returning from Cuba)

- Nigel Barry Hamer sentenced to 12 months in jail (after returning from Cuba)

- Marc Carbonneau sentenced to 20 months in jail and three years probation (after returning from Cuba)

- Yves Langlois sentenced to two years in prison (after returning from Cuba)

I would say the courts clearly proved something.

You seem to suggest that the Canadian Government did something unexpected. What do you think the US response would have been if the Proud Boys kidnaped and murdered Pence on January 6th? Do you not believe the US would have rounded up and arrested anyone suspected of being a Proud Boy?


> I would like to see your source on that because I can list a bunch that attribute the bombings that killed 6 people to members of the FLQ. https://www.cbc.ca/history/EPISCONTENTSE1EP16CH1PA4LE.html

I'm sure it's in the best interests of the State Owned Media to agree with the State on these matters. So I won't even click or comment on that. Let's just say that they have a poor track record at producing any historic content https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/cbc-apology-story-of-u...

What I'm quoting is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_of_Inquiry_in...

Of course, that's what they openly admitted at the time. Who knows what else they did.

> I'm not sure what your point is here. The government arrested people they believed to be active members in a domestic terror cell.

Without constitutional checks and balances, you can arrest anyone you don't like. How convenient! Out of 500 arrest without due process they ended up with less than 10 convictions.

Also, if you look at the individual trials, you'll start to see a pattern:

"A Quebec government commission later determined in 1980 that Rose was not present when Laporte was killed, despite a recorded confession."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rose_(political_figure)

> Note that defendants in civil proceedings are not candidates for international extradition.

That's very convenient.


There is nothing in the RCMP report suggesting the government was responsible for the bombings, deaths, or kidnapping.

The government arrested a lot of people and let most of them go within a few hours without charging them. Is that unexpected? The US has arrested more than 10,000 BLM protesters most for curfew violations and surprise surprise almost all of them were let free soon after without charges

The Duchaine report concluded that one guy was probably not present when the killing happened. Not that there was not a killing. He himself admitted to the killing and all the Duchaine Report did was to suggest it was to cover up for others who had done it.

The civil proceeding are not "convenient" that is not how civil cases work. The people suing him want a share of the money he got for his mistreatment. They had 8 years when he was in US custody to sue. They have not even asked for his return.

From what I see, you put on a tinfoil had and basically made some crap up. Well done.


> There is nothing in the RCMP report suggesting the government was responsible for the bombings

"The cause of the McDonald Commission was accidental; a former RCMP member on trial for bombing a private residence offered in his defence that he had done much worse things while serving on the RCMP Security Service, including having broken into the press office used by left-wing Quebec groups to steal membership lists. In response to these allegations, the McDonald Commission was created to investigate and report on the extent of RCMP wrongdoing"

> He himself admitted to the killing

While illegally detained without constitutional rights. That sounds... Like great evidence.

> basically made some crap up

I wish.


John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute. Discussing vaccination restrictions has lowered your social credit score and you are now also banned from owning firearms. Oh wait, that's already the case in Canada. All joking aside, Canada is looking more fascist every day. I would be doing anything possible to leave, if I were a resident of that nation.


At least I'll be able to wipe my ass with all those violations.


Not sure why the post I replied to got flagged - he didn't say anything that would justify that.


I literally quoted Demolition Man - the irony that this comment was memory-holed is apparently lost on the moderators of this "hacker" board.


Yeah, it's a great quote given the situation. It's pretty much the direction we're going in.


> Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. Not looking to start any fights, but I do think this is getting a bit crazy.

I agree it is getting crazy. I think there's a big push by governments around the world to get vaccine passports introduced world-wide [0]. Perhaps it's part of The Great Reset as proposed by Klaus Schwab? I am not sure ...

Either way, the vaccine passports are pointless for various reasons. Also, even though the USA and various EU countries might want to force vaccines upon their citizens, at the same time there's very little concern on the vaccination status of illegal immigrants. At least in various countries in Europe and Australia there's been large protests recently against vaccine passports and forced vaccinations. You might not find much info about the protests in big media and YouTube, but you can find videos of these protests on alternative media.

I believe everyone that values freedom should take part in these demonstrations. Once governments have introduced vaccine passports, it will be extremely difficult to get back to a world without and it will limit the freedom of you and your children. These vaccine passports will be a major step for Western societies towards becoming totalitarian states like China.

I live in Thailand and as of yet things aren't too bad here, but once I see this country move towards forced vaccinations, I really want to leave with me and my daughter and I was considering Mexico as well in that case. My girlfriend probably would find it too difficult too leave, so in that case we'd have to make some hard choices ...

---

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_uAwsVn10Y




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