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More Than Half a Million Health Care Workers Quit Their Jobs in August (newsweek.com)
45 points by johntfella on Oct 15, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 75 comments



Anecdotally, places like /r/nursing are full of stories of traveling positions (out-of-state temp work) offering as much as $10k/week for qualified personnel. If you're already unhappy with your job and management, and pulling say $70k annually for 80-hour weeks and 36-hour shifts, that has to be tempting. Even half that rate would be worth it for a lot of people. Texas, for example, is trying to stop people from doing this in-state[0].

[0] https://nurse.org/articles/texas-bans-nurses-from-in-state-c...


I thought Texas was the state of "freedom"? And now they are actively preventing the free market?


Lol. Texas is the state of freedom for only a select group.

Remember the argument how businesses were “private property” and could refuse service? Fair enough, I’ll go along with that. Except now, private businesses are not allowed to set rules on immunization.

Texas is the opposite of free market, just look at its recent energy crisis.


> About 534,000 health care workers quit their jobs in August, up from about 404,000 during the same month in 2020.

This article would be much better with a chart of per capita monthly attrition of health care workers going back years before the pandemic, otherwise it's hard to know how significant it actually is.


And what does quitting even mean here? The vast majority are probably simply changing employers, not leaving the industry. And of course mobility for all industries is higher in 2021 than 2020.

This article is useless clickbait sensationalist trash with zero actual data.


"And what does quitting even mean here?"

It means nothing. We have a specialized nurse in our family. He can get a job at anytime anywhere in the US. One phone call, hired. He will quit a job because the break room doesn't have enough light OR he just wants a month off. He often will go back to a hospital he quit four times: re-hired that day.


While we’re doing anecdotes, my wife quit her full time job to take a part time gig making care plans for a retirement center (office work). This is because she couldn’t deal with the patient load and stress from family members. This was pre-COVID. The job is bad enough without a pandemic.


[flagged]


1. “Retarded” as a pejorative is generally considered impolite to the actually retarded. [1]

2. I think you probably mean “too”.

3. Take a deep breath. It will be ok.

[1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/when-you-use-the-word-retarde...


> “too”

Got him


How does "Record-high numbers of Americans working in other public-facing roles also quit their jobs as coronavirus cases surged" tell you anything about whether they returned to the industry or not? It doesn't even tell you they quit because of Coronavirus cases surging, just that those two things were happening at the same time. Further, it doesn't even say whether people in public-facing jobs were quitting more frequently than people in non-public-facing jobs.


And how many are completely leaving the healthcare field vs changing jobs in the same field?


You'll want to partition this data again into movements into direct patient vs non-patient care. There are lots of positions which are in the the field of healthcare, require an RN, but involve no direct patient care.


“The poll showed the exodus is primarily driven by the pandemic, insufficient pay or opportunities, and burnout, according to Morning Consult.”

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/18-of-health...


Publications seem to be oblivious to the fact that they are read by an international audience. I was almost ready to google "Newsweek" to find out from which english-speaking country this is coming when I found a hint that cued me in that the article ist concerned with the situation in America, not Canada or Australia or GB or Ireland or something.


Conveniently, at the very top of the article, just above the headline (on desktop, not sure about mobile), it gives a category for the article: "U.S.".


Oh well, I actually missed that so I guess that one is on me.

Having said that, you have to admit that's not always the case and it's easy to miss after being nagged with cookie popups and newsletters and whatnot.


How many of those were let go because they didn't want to be forced into getting vaccinated?


> Tuesday's report showed that hiring slowed in August, while the number of jobs available fell to 10.4 million, from a record high of 11.1 million in July. The largest decreases in job openings were in health care and social assistance (-224,000); accommodation and food services (-178,000); and state and local government education (-124,000).

> The date on quits is likely too early to show the impact of vaccine mandates. It wasn't until mid-September that President Joe Biden on Thursday announced sweeping new federal vaccine requirements for as many as 100 million Americans — private-sector employees as well as health care workers and federal contractors.


I'm not sure why you're down voted for asking this. 10 nurses at my partner's job quit rather than get vaccinated. They also replaced all 10 very quickly with vaccinated nurses and gave everyone raises.


Because the question is rhetorical and meant to imply that vaccination mandates are the cause of the shortage.


I disagree, obviously if you ask a question you imply the answer might be true. If you want to know whether the mandate is the cause, you need to be able to ask the question.


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A subreddit that celebrates people dying is disgusting. The fact that you linked to it even more so.


Yeah, I don't think the subreddit makes the world a better place, but the broader point is true. Where I live, the director of the hospital has admitted that people have died because they can't get "elective" surgery because the hospital has been full of COVID cases for months now, and they're just maxed out.

I had an acquaintance pass away from COVID recently. She was fairly young and in good shape. She wasn't a raging, obnoxious COVID denier, but her husband didn't seem to place much stock in it and I don't think they got their shots. He's heartbroken, and she leaves behind two sons as well as friends and family. It's pretty tragic that this one stupid mistake took a person who was kind and sweet from the world.

Seeing that over and over and over again... there is no amount of money you could pay me to work in that field right now.


It's basically the same as the Darwin Award. Impolite, sure, but it's hard to feel bad for people actively making the pandemic worse, contributing further to all the death.

Compared to actually causing more deaths, simple mockery seems rather mild.


The obese also make the pandemic worse. Does that make fat shaming okay? Or only if they’ve been killed by Covid?


If I could catch fat through inadvertent proximity to fat people, maybe this would be a valid point.


Levels of degree, pal. Hospitals aren’t overloaded with the obese, they’re overloaded with the unvaccinated.


How many patients currently in hospitals are obese vs unvaccinated?


How many of the obese could get to a healthy weight with one injection in the arm? Are we bored of people answering questions with questions yet?


That's a non-sequitur. The claim isn't about what's easier to prevent. The claim is that unvaccinated are more of a burden on our healthcare system. Ok, I'm open to that, but let's see the data.

I'm not bored of questions, I'm bored of unsubstantiated claims.


I’m bored of lazy people who can’t be bothered to simply search for days and instead use lies and misdirection to further their misguided and ultimately self destructive world view.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-s...


Why don't you tell us?


It doesn't celebrate people dying, it celebrates people for dying, with an award. Many, many lives have been saved through their noble sacrifices and effective self-censorship.


Let's not sugar-coat things, r/HermanCainAward is a subreddit designed around schadenfreude and a sense of comeuppance. I am entirely serious when I say that I believe it is designed to make users internalize the idea that those people deserved to die.


> I am entirely serious when I say that I believe it is designed

This is entirely conspiratorial. Subscribers are subscribed to this not through some advertising campaign, but because they already believed those people deserved to die.


I don't sense what is so conspiratorial about it. Just spend some time observing the kind of material that gets posted there and the tone of the comments. It creates an atmosphere that reinforces the idea that these people "had it coming" so to speak. There is no shortage of mockery and contempt. I think if you spend enough time there, you really do start to internalize these feelings. Why wouldn't someone?

>"Subscribers are subscribed to this not through some advertising campaign"

Perhaps the subreddit grew entirely organically, but it does show up on r/Popular and r/All. It is entirely reasonable to think that a significant number of redditors saw it, wound up subscribing, and after being there for a while they have learned to dehumanize the people that get showcased there. Whereas before they were probably anti-anti-vaxxer but probably not giddy about seeing them suffer because of it.


> I don't sense what is so conspiratorial about it.

You're attempting to insert agency to account for natural repercussions of how we live our lives and the nearly 750k deaths we've already seen. That's what is conspiratorial.

> It creates an atmosphere that reinforces the idea that these people "had it coming" so to speak.

People are just posting what they believe. They believe that death after spamming facebook about the so-called danger is come-uppance.

> after being there for a while they have learned to dehumanize the people that get showcased there

I'm sorry, but I face an almost impenetrably large barrier to the belief that your average American (judging based on Reddit demographics and content of the sub) has to go through a process of dehumanization. Most people get up, try to avoid eye contact with the massive homeless population, ignore news about our empire droning children, grab some lunch, try not to think about us having the largest prison population in the world, and then call it a day.

The single defining political moment of my, and many other Americans lives, has been 9/11. The bloodthirst in the aftermath is that only political consensus I've ever seen. How does one reconcile higher covid mortality rates than 9/11 with calls to reopen Fuddruckers regardless of the outcomes? It appears this subreddit is one of many answers.


I think an important difference is that the subreddit doesn't post any random person who dies of COVID. They limit posts specifically to people who also used the last 6-12 months of their lives to obnoxiously post to their social media anti-mask and anti-vax messages, COVID denial, conspiracies, persecution victimhood, complaints about tyranny, etc. and then ironically died of the disease they were mocking. Big difference.

Just like Darwin awards don't just mock the dead in general, they mock people dying doing crazy dangerous things that they should know will kill them.


Imagine a subreddit dedicated to giving out awards to transgender suicides. Incredibly disgusting.


Not even remotely similar.

I am once again reminded of my favorite Dril tweet "the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: 'theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron'".

Loudly proclaiming ignorance (usually ideologically driven) of modern medicine while actively endangering those around you and then facing the consequences of your actions is a totally different beast than making a decision about your body (or affirming something about your body) and societal pressure around that decision fueling depression and resulting in suicide.

HCA is much more similar to looking at posts made by people who drive drunk celebrating their inability to drive sober and then that person dying in a single person car accident.

Really gross take.

[1] https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en



Man, this reeks of something I don't think the English language has a word for yet.

'What we do here is pretty terrible... BUT it is entirely the fault of the people we dehumanize. THEY are the ones who are responsible and we will continue to do what we do because THEY continue to do what they do.'


"Look what you made me do, Tina." -- Ike Turner


It’s not celebrating their deaths. It’s warning about what happens when you ignore modern medical science and start believing conspiracy theories.


No it isn’t. The only people who would read that subreddit are those who go there to bask in the tragedy.


Well, I've just disproven your hypothesis, because I read that subreddit, and I absolutely don't bask in their tragedy. What is happening to these people is a tragedy, not only for their deaths but for the sheer and utter stupidity of it all.


And you got downvoted for pointing this out. The decline of our society is both tragic and appalling.


Your offense is oddly selective. You should be offended at the attitudes and thought processes that lead to the existence of the Herman Cain Awards.


That's the thing. I am not being selective. IMO it does not matter why someone dies, it is never appropriate to laugh or make fun of it. It does not matter the cause, someone else is always suffering from the loss.

This has nothing to do with whether or not some made a smart choice. I never once said or implied I wasn't offended at the process that lead to it. You just made that up, really I have no idea why.

My point has always been and remains: It is not okay to make fun of someone dying. I do not care the reason of the death.

If you lose someone close how would you feel if people stared harassing you over the death of your loved one because someone wanted some fake internet points on reddit?


[flagged]


Hey that is a completely valid opinion to have. I have no right to tell you cannot think that. However at the same time I have a right to think its not okay to find it funny.

Out of curiosity where is the line for you? Do you find it funny when a smoker dies of cancer or a heavy drinker dies of liver failure? Do you find it funny when someone dies in a car accident (cars are extremely dangerous and they choose to get in it)? What about a soldier (they choose to enlist)? What about stunt people?

Should a healthy fit person be able to kick out a life-long smoker or an obese person from a hospital room?


Out of curiosity where is the line for you? Do you find it funny when a smoker dies of cancer or a heavy drinker dies of liver failure? Do you find it funny when someone dies in a car accident (cars are extremely dangerous and they choose to get in it)? What about a soldier (they choose to enlist)? What about stunt people?

This is a common-enough schtick among antivaxxers that it has a readily-available (and rather obvious) response: those people aren't contagious.


So are you saying that your line is when someone else is contagious with covid or something else? Seems extremely selective to me.

Second hand smoke has killed 30k+ in the US yearly for decades.

Drunk drivers and reckless drivers kill thousands of people yearly.

So yes they aren't able to give you covid but the are in fact very capable of killing other innocent people that did nothing wrong.

Also once again we are talking about whether or not is okay to laugh at someone dying. It has nothing to do with antivax stuff. This is the second time you have attempted to put words in my mouth. Please stop.


Given a hypothetical group of smokers who not only blow smoke in other peoples' faces on purpose but who loudly advocate that other people do so, claiming that it's all a big conspiracy and that secondhand smoke is actually harmless or even healthy, yes. I'd put them on the same side of the line as antivaxxers.

Same with drunk driving. Did the drunk driver own a chain of car repair shops that promoted their $29 oil changes by offering free shots of Jaegermeister in the lube bay? Well, sorry, pal, someone who didn't do that is ahead of you in triage. We could maybe fit you in next Tuesday.

Also once again we are talking about whether or not is okay to laugh at someone dying. It has nothing to do with antivax stuff. This is the second time you have attempted to put words in my mouth. Please stop.

Yet out of all the worthy causes in the world, you choose to take time out of your day to defend this one. Curious.

The antivaxxers have social-media heavyweights like Tucker Carlson and Robert F. Kennedy and Nicki Minaj and Eric Clapton speaking for them. You can take a break.


I think its curious someone who has admitted they think others dying is funny is trying to judge what I choose to defend.

Can you please provide evidence I only defend antivaxxers? Maybe go look at my previous post in which I say anyone making fun of someone else dying is disgusting. This is the third time you have put words in my mouth. Once again stop. You need to learn to argue without making stuff up to defend your point.


Don't want to be taken for an antivaxxer or antivax apologist? Don't argue like one.

Otherwise, the risk is that you'll come across as just another concern troll. You've pretty much nailed the main tropes.


>"These people make the world a worse place, so it's entirely possible that we're better off without them."

I'm not normally a slippery-slope kind of person, but I implore you not to let this line of thinking become acceptable, lest it apply to other groups of people. My fear is that if people can adopt this kind of attitude for Covid-Vaccine refusers, I shudder to think what other groups this can be applied to, too.


Always good advice, for sure. I do think it can be a valid reasoning process in zero-sum cases like this, where a clear dividing line can be drawn between patients who are there because they bought into whatever BS they were spreading on Facebook the day before, and patients who drew the short straw despite following the best available guidance.


I see where you are coming from, and I also want to make it clear that I don't think you are a bad person and I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I am particularly concerned at what I sense is an unchecked trend of increasing polarization and dehumanization. The refusers who are taking up ICU beds are indeed responsible for their actions but I fear people online are taking things too far when it comes to making examples out of them.


It is disgusting. The whole situation is disgusting. People refusing to take a vaccine and/or wear a mask to avoid being a burden to the healthcare system (or the morgues) is disgusting. I think the link is relevant to the context of the problem.


[flagged]


I have browsed the subreddit. It is filled will people celebrating other dying. It also was posting people private information causing the families of the deceased to get harassed. This recently lead the subreddits moderators to change the rules to keep this from happening so don't bother denying it.

It is no different than the anti-vaxers posting picture of people's social media feeds bragging about being vaccinated and then ending up in the hospital. Its disgusting and completely uncalled for.

Is it okay to celebrate when an obese person dies from heart disease? No it is not. Its a time to let their families and friends grieve their loss.


Sure thing, dude.

Here's a mental exercise for you: what percentage of the obese population would, if they could, take a vaccine that would prevent them from being obese?

Given the sheer amount of money spent on diet programs every year, I'm betting that the percentage would be absolutely staggering. Even most of those who are against taking the COVID vaccine would take it.

Now compare that to these people who don't want to take a vaccine because they (a) believe that they're nigh-invincible, and (b) believe that they're taking a political stand against tyranny.

Opening people's eyes to what the disease does and how it can be prevented is vastly more important than the feelings of the family members of gullible people.


These comparisons to obesity are so, so stupid. Obesity is a far more complex case, with much more challenging solutions. For people that become fatter more easily, it takes a lot of work every week to maintain a healthy lifestyle, and that basically never stops. Obese people are almost never proudly very overweight, and if a normal weight was just a couple safe and free shots away, virtually all of them would sign up.

In contrast, vaccination is widely accessible, free, easy, and barely consumes any time. You have to actively not want to be vaccinated at this point to avoid it.


Also, you can't spread obesity to the non-obese.

I know about network affect influencing obesity, but that's a process and involves actions on the other parties behalf and takes more than a few minutes. Don't try to "gotcha" me.


Network effects can cause the spread of obesity, as well as ideologies such as the anti-vax movement, so I don't see why it's not a "gotcha".


It's possible to resist network effects, not really possible to resist virus particles you unknowingly inhale.


You can socially distance and wear a mask.


These reduce the chances somewhat, but some people who do this will still get infected.


Because beyond ideology you can literally spread Covid, not just the incorrect ideas around the Covid vaccine. Like, I can be around someone with Covid and catch it and have Covid. That's a clear difference from obesity.


> It is no different than the anti-vaxers posting picture of people's social media feeds bragging about being vaccinated and then ending up in the hospital.

What a sad analogy. One group that can take one or two shots and can drastically decrease the odds of hospitalization vs one group that tried to do the right thing but still got COVID mostly due to huge community transmission contributed by the unvaxxed group.

> Is it okay to celebrate when an obese person dies from heart disease?

If only obese people could take 2 shots that drastically reduces the odds of heart disease.


>"If only obese people could take 2 shots that drastically reduces the odds of heart disease. "

In this analogy, if such a shot did exist and there were obese people who did not take it, would there be a subreddit giving out awards for when they die from obesity related complications?


If they could easily spread obesity to others and potentially get them killed as well, I don't see why not.


I'm not and have never been arguing about whether or not to take a vaccine. I am arguing celebrating people dying is disgusting no matter the cause. That is it. You can disagree and list why you disagree and I'll respond but, I have zero interesting in arguing about taking a vaccine or if taking 2 shots is easier than exhibiting self control.


Somewhat related is the r/LeopardsAteMyFace/ subreddit, of the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party. (https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/


No ones saying we can't leave lockdown because of the unvaccinated. Open up already! Pandemic ... over. It's what the right wants, freedom and less government oversight.

Its the left that wants to continue the narrative and pretend the pandemic is a bigger deal than it really is, that we can only survive with the big wise government who knows whats best for all of us. No burn out necessary, the left is just being overly dramatic to point fingers. Just open up if you're serious, its mostly the right who'll die.


> Just open up if you're serious, its mostly the right who'll die.

That's a surprisingly persuasive argument to convince someone on the left in advocacy of ending the mandates.




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