Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I believe that unless you put the inline pragma on the Lisp function, the compiler isn't allowed to optimize the recursion.

In general, Common Lisp doesn't favor recursive functions (as opposed to Scheme), and as far as I know, most implementations don't put huge amounts of effort into optimizing it.

I'd be interested to see whether the same written using the loop (or iterate:iter) macros would still be as slow.




If you make it tail recursive, its insanely fast in common lisp. (sbcl)


How would you code a tail recursive Fibonacci in LISP?


If you were a non LISP programmer and thought "Fibonacci using recursion", you might think you'd have something like fib(a)=fib(a-1)+fib(a-2), and scoff at its possible performance, and also wonder how that would be tail call optimized. But as a LISP programmer, you'll think of this in the way a Java programmer would think of a loop, and just treat this as a count over two values n times, adding along the way. And this is why I don't like LISP: because I have programmed assembly and built up from there, and doing loops using tail call recursion seems to be a lie. It is a faulty abstraction. It is a loop. You'd be better off doing it in a loop, in any sane language, and if you do it right in LISP, the code will generate a loop in assembly language. Just the fact that this thread devolved into how to specify compiler options so that it actually generates that loop shows how absurd the whole thing is.


Do "for" and "while" constructs also seem silly? After all they "compile to a loop" as well.

The purpose of all these loop constructs is to place constraints on some essential aspect of the loop up front, thus narrowing the possible range of effects of that wicked goto, by encoding common patterns. "For" loops guarantee the number of iterations. "While" loops guarantee the exit condition. And tail recursion guarantees what state gets modified in the loop.

It is strange the way you say "better off doing it in a loop". As you say, it is a loop. What construct would you prefer? GOTO?


I think the appeal of expressing loops with recursion is that it lets you to avoid mutation. But I agree with the point that Rust folks frequently make, about how being able to mutate things safely is a lot nicer than avoiding all mutation.


And where exactly is the problem with the compiler rewriting tail calls into a loop on the assembly level? Calling this a "lie" is pretty childish.


There may be a faster or cleverer way to do it but here's a basic tail recursive fibonacci:

    (defun nth-fibonacci (n &optional (a 0) (b 1))
      (if (= n 0) 
          a 
          (nth-fibonacci (- n 1) b (+ a b))))


WEB> (time (nth-fibonacci 9999)) Evaluation took: 0.005 seconds of real time 0.004520 seconds of total run time (0.000168 user, 0.004352 system) 100.00% CPU 13,120,881 processor cycles 4,716,256 bytes consed

20793608237133498072112648988642836825087036094015903119682945866528501423455686648927456034305226515591757343297190158010624794267250973176133810179902738038231789748346235556483191431591924532394420028067810320408724414693462849062668387083308048250920654493340878733226377580847446324873797603734794648258113858631550404081017260381202919943892370942852601647398213554479081823593715429566945149312993664846779090437799284773675379284270660175134664833266377698642012106891355791141872776934080803504956794094648292880566056364718187662668970758537383352677420835574155945658542003634765324541006121012446785689171494803262408602693091211601973938229446636049901531963286159699077880427720289235539329671877182915643419079186525118678856821600897520171070499437657067342400871083908811800976259727431820539554256869460815355918458253398234382360435762759823179896116748424269545924633204614137992850814352018738480923581553988990897151469406131695614497783720743461373756218685106856826090696339815490921253714537241866911604250597353747823733268178182198509240226955826416016690084749816072843582488613184829905383150180047844353751554201573833105521980998123833253261228689824051777846588461079790807828367132384798451794011076569057522158680378961532160858387223882974380483931929541222100800313580688585002598879566463221427820448492565073106595808837401648996423563386109782045634122467872921845606409174360635618216883812562321664442822952537577492715365321134204530686742435454505103269768144370118494906390254934942358904031509877369722437053383165360388595116980245927935225901537634925654872380877183008301074569444002426436414756905094535072804764684492105680024739914490555904391369218696387092918189246157103450387050229300603241611410707453960080170928277951834763216705242485820801423866526633816082921442883095463259080471819329201710147828025221385656340207489796317663278872207607791034431700112753558813478888727503825389066823098683355695718137867882982111710796422706778536913192342733364556727928018953989153106047379741280794091639429908796650294603536651238230626 WEB>


You may want to put extra spaces in front of those lines, and also manually break up that massive number.


Yep, that's how you'd do it. So long as your CL implementation supports tail call optimization, that will be on par with the same algorithm using loop or another looping construct.


SBCL doesn't optimize tail calls by default.

If I recall you have to set the optimization level prior to compiling the function using `(declaim (optimize xxx))` - where xxx is something I've forgotten. Perhaps someone can come along and point out what xxx should be?


  ; disassembly for NTH-FIBONACCI
  ; Size: 94 bytes. Origin: #x2264E531                          ; NTH-FIBONACCI
  ; 31:       498B4510         MOV RAX, [R13+16]                ; thread.binding-stack-pointer
  ; 35:       488945F8         MOV [RBP-8], RAX
  ; 39:       488B55F0         MOV RDX, [RBP-16]
  ; 3D:       31FF             XOR EDI, EDI
  ; 3F:       E8AC343BFF       CALL #x21A019F0                  ; GENERIC-=
  ; 44:       750A             JNE L0
  ; 46:       488B55E8         MOV RDX, [RBP-24]
  ; 4A:       488BE5           MOV RSP, RBP
  ; 4D:       F8               CLC
  ; 4E:       5D               POP RBP
  ; 4F:       C3               RET
  ; 50: L0:   488B55F0         MOV RDX, [RBP-16]
  ; 54:       BF02000000       MOV EDI, 2
  ; 59:       E8C2323BFF       CALL #x21A01820                  ; GENERIC--
  ; 5E:       488BC2           MOV RAX, RDX
  ; 61:       488945D8         MOV [RBP-40], RAX
  ; 65:       488B55E8         MOV RDX, [RBP-24]
  ; 69:       488B7DE0         MOV RDI, [RBP-32]
  ; 6D:       E84E323BFF       CALL #x21A017C0                  ; GENERIC-+
  ; 72:       488BF2           MOV RSI, RDX
  ; 75:       488B45D8         MOV RAX, [RBP-40]
  ; 79:       488BD0           MOV RDX, RAX
  ; 7C:       488B7DE0         MOV RDI, [RBP-32]
  ; 80:       B906000000       MOV ECX, 6
  ; 85:       FF7508           PUSH QWORD PTR [RBP+8]
  ; 88:       E99507DBFD       JMP #x203FED22                   ; #<FDEFN NTH-FIBONACCI>
  ; 8D:       CC10             INT3 16                          ; Invalid argument count trap
Looks like it's doing tail call optimization to me, this is without doing anything special with declaim. Note that where it returns to the top is with JMP not CALL.

http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Debug-Tail-Recursion


Ah, so as long as optimize is 2 or less you should get tail call recursion. I found when I tried it (several years ago) the default was debug optimize.

I wonder if different installs (or perhaps it's Slime) sets this value to different levels.

Something to bear in mind anyway..


Wow, that worked, thanks!!!

WEB> (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (speed 3)))

NIL

WEB> (defun nth-fibonacci (n &optional (a 0) (b 1))

      (if (= n 0) 

          a 

          (nth-fibonacci (- n 1) b (+ a b))))
WARNING: redefining LOBE/SRC/WEB::NTH-FIBONACCI in DEFUN NTH-FIBONACCI

WEB> (time (nth-fibonacci 9999))

Evaluation took: 0.002 seconds of real time 0.001887 seconds of total run time (0.001887 user, 0.000000 system) 100.00% CPU 5,476,446 processor cycles 4,715,760 bytes consed


Oh thats interesting!, we don't use that but use tail recursion extensively

https://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html#sec-2-2


I haven't looked at trying and don't really have time to, so I don't know, but with lisp, you can make anything fast as a general rule, very very fast. (at least with compiled sbcl)


If I absolutely had to write a recursive solution, something like this (should have all recursive calls in a tail position, may require trading debugability for speed):

  (defun tail-fib (n &optional (v0 0) (v1 1)
     (cond ((zerop n) v0)
           (t (tail-fib (1- n) v1 (+ v0 v1)))))


I don’t know much Lisp. Is that why I, except for syntax, see no difference from emptybits’s nth-fibonacci?




Join us for AI Startup School this June 16-17 in San Francisco!

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: