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Thank you, yes, this is where I arrive at.

Describing patterns observed from within space-time and ending up modelling a timeless universe seems incoherent to me!




Hm, that's not really what I was trying to say. It does not seem incoherent to me. I feel like I don't understand what you are saying though.


I'm very likely being the one who is incoherent!

My concern is something like this: observing and modelling patterns in the universe can only take place within time. If your models derived from the observed patterns then allow you to model a universe that does not have time, then there is something fishy with the model -- you've bootstrapped a timeless universe that is only intelligible from within time.


I found it interesting, even though I don't (yet?) understand it, that Sir Roger Penrose in this talk/debate with William Lane Craig talks about that "you can have a temporal order without having a time associated with that": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLtCqm72-Y&t=58m5s




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