I wish apple would stop using/forcing IC manufacturers to restrict supply of components on their board.
The IRP provides parts, but when it comes to apple, the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown because of liquid damage, you have to replace the entire PCB, which for a MBP might be like $800-1200.
I feel like there is so much ewaste that wouldn't head to the landfill if this wasn't the case.
While that would be great, it's a pointless wish considering Apple has been steadily moving in the exact opposite direction for years. And now other manufacturers are doing the same following their lead. Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer.
>Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer
Why forget? We're talking about Apple, and it's a choice
Apple could make at any time. It took me a few years, but I am now pretty damn good with my hot air reflow station and can reliably work with pretty much any SMD.
If someone (who of of course has given informed consent that I am not Apple and they have no responsibility for this repair) wants me to try and fix their device, what's the good reason for Apple not selling me a component?
Because it makes no sense if your goal is to make as much money as possible. You'd rather sell them something new or capture as much profit as possible by selling your repairs.
I'm an apple customer only because I consider them the least worst option for me at this time. Nobody is king forever, and the second there's a viable option for me, I'm out.
what's the good reason for apple not selling me a component?
I have no personal insight into the content of Apple's contracts. That said, having had a bit of experience in that sort of thing previously, the "good reason" could be Apple's contracts with its suppliers. Maybe Apple gets different contracts since they are such a market maker, but for a normal startup, be prepared to not be able to sell those parts on to third parties. Full stop.
Many people sometimes don't read or fully understand the fine print in those contracts. ("Many people" being me and my partners as first time hardware guys.)
Not sure why suppliers do that? Maybe so that they can capture that markup revenue themselves? Or maybe they don't want you moving into that business at all even as a "parts seller"? But in dealing with component suppliers at a less larger scale, there are many things you have to agree to that would have made doing what you ask explicitly a breach of our contracts.
You would think Apple has better contracts though? I would think they would have far more flexibility. Just throwing out what we had to deal with and thinking "what if Apple has the same thing going on?"
> who of of course has given informed consent that I am not Apple and they have no responsibility for this repair
I think no matter the lengths you go to in explaining it there would in fact still be a lot of consumers that don’t understand what this means. And so Apple might see more customers blame them whenever a less skilled IRP changes some components without it fixing the problem.
They've already done it, but it was a Microsoft Surface Laptop with spot welds and glue.
>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” Ouch. That’s never happened before. The lowest scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro
I was appalled when I just tried to upgrade my Lenovo laptop's WiFi and was greeted with a BIOS message telling me the hardware I inserted was unauthorized and to remove it or it wouldn't boot.
What Microsoft did there takes the cake though...That is truly disgusting.
I think HP was actually the pioneer of this. Years ago I attempted to replace a failed (IDE) hard drive in an HP desktop. The (HP OEM) Windows installation failed because the drive (although comparable and perfectly suitable) was not an HP part. I dealt with their tech support for days, and even obtained a replacement (HP OEM) Windows disc. The troubleshooting folks were off their chart and could not help. (I went with a non-HP drive because I could get it more quickly, and it cost half as much as the HP part, and had a better warranty.)
I tried a non-HP Windows installation disc and everything worked just fine. So I was not allowed to install the Licensed and paid-for Windows OS because the hard disk was not recognized as an HP part.
I wasted so much time troubleshooting that it would have been cheaper to just buy the overpriced HP disk. Since that day I have never purchased any HP products, and I have recommended other brands to my clients.
I'm glad you mentioned that. so much time is spent attacking Apple for "not being repairable" but many people seem to forget just how common the practice is, and that Apple most certainly didn't pioneer it.
How many hours of specialist work would it be to find and replace a single tiny faulty IC on a large PCB? I can't imagine it's actually cost effective.
It’s not so bad if you can get enough customers and it’s all the same laptop. Lewis Rossman has a very good knowledge of the MacBook internals and he can very quickly identify which chip is dead because it’s often the same chips that fail and they give the same symptoms so with a few voltage checks with a multi meter you can work out what chip needs replacing.
The problem is the suppliers for apple have tightened protocols and they won’t talk to him anymore so what used to be $1 in new parts and $40 in effort is now telling the customer to throw their MacBook in the bin.
The economics also changes in other countries where the cost of a laptop far exceeds the wages of the people living there so having someone mess around with it for a few days is still more cost effective than getting a new one.
You are forgetting that many faults are from more or less design issues on the particular product revisions so there is a lot to be said for identifying the fault pattern once, then just applying it over and over again. Then, the cost you are competing with is the replacement cost for typically the entire logic board, which can easily be $800 - that buys a lot of hours.
That said there is a kernel of truth here which is that component level repair requires diagnostic acumen, creativity and some mechanical skill. That requires some actual expertise, training, .. in your repair business instead of hiring monkeys that replace full boards no matter what.
Not many. When you work with the same boards over and over, you tend to know the places to check when certain issues come up. Fewer dollars in man-hours than the cost of a board replacement.
Many times the same parts fail over and over, you do not start checking from A to Z. Honestly I am expecting somone to comment that he made a neural network that will detect the exact problem just from the error codes and a board picture, maybe an infrared one too.
Depends on the fault. If the schematics are readily available and replacement parts are there, it would take maybe 20-40 minutes of troubleshooting? Sure its complicated, but if you charge $150-200/hour, it can certainly be cost effective when the alternative is $1200 for a new PCB or $2500 for a new laptop.
Definitely not, but the way they probably calculate this is:
Total Bill of Materials = display + motherboard + laptop case + keyboard + trackpad + charger + cable
Then they figure out what percentage each subassembly costs in the BOM and then divide by the retail price of the product, maybe rounding up a hundred or two.
So if for example the motherboard is 40% of the total BOM of a $2500 laptop, you have a $1,000 motherboard right there.
For most manufacturers I agree, but Apple has the capability to disassemble and refurbish their devices in an automated fashion and incentivizes users to trade in their old equipment with discounts on new products. There is a lot less that gets sent to landfill as a result.
I would love to hear sources on that, I doubt that apple refurbs their 2-3 year old laptops and sells them to customers. Maybe they are doing this for iPhone lines, but I doubt they are doing it for their MBP/iPad stuff.
TBH, refurb stuff in my mind is basically remanufactured. When most devices go through that process at a manufacturer, many times they will get the guts pulled out and have replacement cosmetics redone.
I have never seen anything but the current gen stuff or N-1 laptops for sale on their refurb store, so call that into question.
the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown
If it can't be bought, how do you know it costs $4?
More to the point — I don't think Apple is focused on repair shops as competition. I think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the hands of their real competitors. The indy repair facilities are just collateral damage.
Because parts of similar make/capabilities by the exact same manufacturer are sold at that price. What Apple is doing is working with the supplier to roll a specific IC that is for use exclusively by them. The issue is that many of these components don't have any secret sauce (or if they do, its minimal) and are black boxes which can't be bought.
I'm even giving them a huge price hike, since on many of the things, for example a common DC-DC converter with multiple rails in a WLCSP or BGA package is more like $.20-$.35 at the volumes they buy.
They are definitely not doing this as a competitive thing against Samsung/Huawei, since Samsung/Huawei aren't competitors on laptops. This is specifically around their laptops/desktops.
These practices are definitely targeted at removing the capabilities to do component level repair. If they were not, you could allow your suppliers to sell those ICs to component level repair shops.
The problem is that Apple has a pattern and well established history of this type of anti-repair behavior. They have also been actively engaged in lobbying against these types of rights. They definitely don't get to have the benefit of the doubt on this topic.
Dont forget RPi foundation did exactly the same thing with rpi3 voltage regulator, and refused to sell replacements despite their shit design blowing them easily.
> think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the hands of their real competitors
How does that even make sense - the parts are shipping with the devices. And reverse engineering stuff from the device to the point of being able to repair (ie. reverse engineering to the point of a repair manual) should be fairly trivial for invested parties.
Apple independent repair is a PR stunt that is not at all about repair. It's apart of their fight to not provide repair while looking like they do so various governments won't regulate them.
If we always had to buy OEM dealer parts and only dealer 'certified techs' could repair, then only the rich can afford vehicles.
> If we always had to buy OEM dealer parts and only dealer 'certified techs' could repair, then only the rich can afford vehicles.
Assuming Apple even sells their "authorized independent repair providers" the parts or authorizes them to perform the repairs. From the sound of things, they can't do hardly anything more than replace screens and batteries. Rossmann has said he's not AAIRP-certified specifically because the program wouldn't allow him to offer many of the repair services he current provides.
The city I grew up in had 3 Apple stores within 10 miles, I took having access to in-person Apple support for granted.
Have a problem? Drive down to the Apple store.
Then I moved to a European country without a single Apple store.
Did you know that Apple will only replace iPhones under warranty that were purchased in the same country (EU is a single market)? [0]
Meaning, if I buy an iPhone in Europe, Apple won't service it under warranty in the US and visa versa. I have to mail it to the country of purchase.
There are a lot of locations in the world without an Apple store, and I help this makes it easier to get support locally.
I recently switched to the M1 from Lenovo's X1 Carbon line and one of the things I appreciated about Lenovo was having a global 3rd party support network with a massive footprint to service warranty issues.
If I have problems with my M1 I need to mail it somewhere.
I've personally had an iPhone 8 purchased in Thailand replaced under warranty in Sydney. I've had US-purchased Macbook Pros serviced in many other countries, including batteries (Canada, Thailand), mainboards (Germany, Singapore), top cases (butterfly keyboard in Thailand and Germany) and screens (Texas, Thailand). Certainly seems global to me, though countries without Apple stores are most definitely second class participants in Apple's repair network.
> Meaning, if I buy an iPhone in Europe, Apple won't service it under warranty in the US and visa versa. I have to mail it to the country of purchase.
Anecdotal, but I had my EU-bought hardware serviced multiple time by Apple in the US. In fact, Apple replaced my battery of my EU-bought laptop for free, even though my laptop was long out of warranty.
Additionally Apple US has fixed my hardware when Apple EU has refused to do so claiming it had no problem.
I Have Apple Care, if that matters.
People like to complain about Apple support all the time, but in my experience, Apple has been the only company where I've had a good warranty experience, though that was in the US. In the EU, it's a disaster.
That's the hilarious thing about Apple. You overpay on the hardware so that you can get gouged on the software, while overpaying for a subscription to be able to overpay for repairs.
while overpaying for a subscription to be able to overpay for repairs.
You might want to refine your talking points. This has been standard practice for electronics companies at least since the 1970's. Probably longer. You pay for an extended warranty. That's why it's called "extended."
I mean sure, many stores try to flog them. But Apple is the only manufacturer that tries to make them a thing, over here at least.
(Aside from them being ~useless, since manufacturing defects are covered by the Reklamationsrätt anyway, and accidents go under your existing home insurance).
Our taxes are stupidly insane, and often things at outright not available here, so we buy in other countries... need warranty? You are screwed.
I bought some RAM for example from US... It had an error in its ROM configuration, I told the manufacturer, they attempted to fix (and failed, the replacement had same error) and sent to me the replacement, government changed me import taxes on the product replacement, and seemly just to make a point made the taxes higher than the original price I paid in first place.
Because countries dependent on non-value-added exports typically have serious issues with balancing a competitive exchange rate with inflation.
Promoting the purchase of expensive foreign goods dries up the supple of foreign currency generally used as a reserve, which drives down the value of local currency, generates an inflationary spiral, and increases the cost of more vital industries to acquire foreign goods necessary for production.
Hence import taxes in a lot of these countries are used to prevent bank runs, inflation, and access to critical goods.
It’s an improvement but it’s not quite good enough IMO. Apple has a few weird and insane requirements that extend to independent repair stores.
If you want to get your battery replaced. The settings app must show that the battery health is at 80% or lower. If it doesn’t for some reason, the repair store is not allowed by apple to swap the battery regardless of what you have experienced or what you are willing to pay.
That doesn't even register in terms of the "insane" requirements of this program.
The primary benefit of going to an independent repair store is that they're local and can provide faster turnaround than mailing it off somewhere. But Apple serializes the batteries, so you can't stockpile them. The battery won't work unless it's programmed with the phone's serial, and independent repair shops can't do that.
So the customer has to go to the independent repair shop, have them open up the phone, write down the serial number, order the battery from Apple, wait for it to be shipped, and then call the customer back in a week so that the phone can be opened and actually fixed.
And if the customer at any point says "fuck it" and buys a new phone or sends it direct to Apple, then the repair shop is stuck with an worthless battery that only works for that specific phone.
And on top of that, the batteries are un-competitively priced.
It's a completely worthless program designed to provide them some political cover and nothing else.
Apple serializes the batteries, so you can't stockpile them.
My experience has been the opposite.
When I had my battery replaced at an independent Apple authorized service center (one that Apple actually referred me to), they replaced the battery the same day with one they had in stock.
I guess that's to stop repairers telling you 'probably worth changing the battery while we're at it' when that's not true - similar to many disreputable car mechanics.
That's especially weird as in the Apple Store, they will not do it under warranty but will replace your battery even if it's 80%+ for the usual rate. They heavily discourage it though (since if your battery isn't that degraded the system won't start downclocking).
There's nothing weird about it. Apple don't really want retail repair shop to be functional. The whole IRP is just a political move to avoid right to repair legal battles.
What part is serviceable on an M1 SoC? I returned my M1 MBA because I don't want to think on how to replace the SSD after two or three years of norm usage.
It's a great machine, but will buy it only after an official statement of Apple confirming what's the TBW of their ssd. It's 150? 300 or 600. Nobody knows.
I'm not sure you're clear on the difference between a SoC, and a System on a Motherboard. In the case of the motherboard, you are absolutely correct. However SoC means System on a Chip. For any manufacturer, if you put all the components into one IC, I'm not seeing how you can reasonably "repair" a component that's on that die? It's necessary to replace SoCs. But yeah, if you have an SSD on a motherboard, you should be able to replace it.
The IRP provides parts, but when it comes to apple, the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown because of liquid damage, you have to replace the entire PCB, which for a MBP might be like $800-1200.
I feel like there is so much ewaste that wouldn't head to the landfill if this wasn't the case.