Except this is completely anti thetical to the idea of stand ups which are supposed to be peer to peer as opposed to a more expert to non expert relationship.
What you’re really looking for is office hours.
If you’re self conscious about asking questions, how is it easier to do it in the moment with your entire team also listening in, as opposed to a direct IM, or email if you’re worried about disturbing the busy expert?
And how often do people have questions for experts? More often during the beginning of a project, then there’s a lull, then maybe some more questions as you find things you hadn’t thought of, then another lull, and then more questions towards the end where you are trying to close all the loose ends.
Daily standup requires you take up the expert’s valuable time in equal amounts during all those periods. And you have a bunch of people listening in who have no reason to be in that conversation. (A single 15 minute standup with a team of 8 is straight up 2 hours down the drain. And that does not include any of the context switching costs, or the cost of interrupting someone doing deep work).
Wouldn’t it be much bette to setup a 1 hour meeting on day 1 of the project with the expert (doesn’t stand up add a whole role, scrum master, whose only purpose is to direct people to the correct experts, basically? Well, use them if you don’t know who the expert is...prior to scrum we simply went to our team lead for situations like that). A 30 minute follow up at the end of the week.
Then another 30 minute follow up a week later and a 1 hour meeting a week later close to the end of the project.
That’s 3 hours worth of time from the expert in a span of 3 weeks, but the expert gets to hold forth for those entire 3 hours, without having to waste 12 out of 15 mins listening to useless crap. That’s a straight up 20% saving over the stand ups, gets you a full 3 hours from them, as opposed to 20% of the time, gets their attention in decent chunks of times, where you can have a real discussion, interrupts them 4 times over 15 working days as opposed to 15 times, and only includes those who are directly relevant to the discussion as opposed to everybody.
That's a great point. And here is a real example that happened recently at work. One of my teams needs to create the ability for their low-level code to be able to respond to HTTP requests for command and control. So they have all immediately started trying to figure out how to do this. Except I happen to know that another of my teams already did this exact same thing in another project, packaged it up and published it...and the source code is already sitting there on github waiting to be re-used. There is zero overlap between the two teams (two totally different departments) except for me, so in this case I (as a lowly engineering manager whose coding days are long behind me) am able to solve a problem and save time/wasted effort Now, if we didn't do dailies, of course this would come up at some point but we'd have lost a week of productivity or more.
> stand ups which are supposed to be peer to peer as opposed to a more expert to non expert relationship.
Right - I'm taking the assumption that everyone will have their own area of expertise, and "the expert" for a given issue might be any one of your peers.
> If you’re self conscious about asking questions, how is it easier to do it in the moment with your entire team also listening in, as opposed to a direct IM, or email if you’re worried about disturbing the busy expert?
Because there's a specific time at which you're expected to do it. It's very easy to keep putting off an IM/email, thinking you'll just spend a bit more time trying to figure it out yourself first. And the expert has already been disturbed, so there's no need to feel guilty about interrupting them.
> Wouldn’t it be much bette to setup a 1 hour meeting on day 1 of the project with the expert (doesn’t stand up add a whole role, scrum master, whose only purpose is to direct people to the correct experts, basically? Well, use them if you don’t know who the expert is...prior to scrum we simply went to our team lead for situations like that). A 30 minute follow up at the end of the week.
No, having experienced both approaches. You're so much more productive if you have direct, daily access to the expert. On day 1 you don't know what questions to ask; most of what a programmer spends their time doing is exploring the problem space. If you've got a daily iteration cycle where you ask a couple of questions, try things out, and then come back the next day with some follow ups based on what you've learnt, you get a whole lot more done.
> That’s 3 hours worth of time from the expert in a span of 3 weeks, but the expert gets to hold forth for those entire 3 hours, without having to waste 12 out of 15 mins listening to useless crap. That’s a straight up 20% saving over the stand ups, gets you a full 3 hours from them, as opposed to 20% of the time, gets their attention in decent chunks of times, where you can have a real discussion, interrupts them 4 times over 15 working days as opposed to 15 times, and only includes those who are directly relevant to the discussion as opposed to everybody.
It doesn't end up being "useless crap"; everyone is part of the same team delivering the same product, so it's important to have cross-pollination about what's everyone else is doing.
Of course if someone has particular expertise that warrants holding forth for an hour on the subject, it might be worth scheduling a time for them to do that. But there's definitely no substitute for having everyone available every day, at the same time as the rest of the team.
> It doesn't end up being "useless crap"; everyone is part of the same team delivering the same product, so it's important to have cross-pollination about what's everyone else is doing.
And in the same breath, it is a pipe dream to believe this can be achieved in 15-30 minutes every day. That's part of the controversy behind daily scrum: as a status update tool (which, yes I know, it "isn't supposed to be"), it is too long and there are better methods which can be automated. As a tool to actually share things, it is far too short. In both cases, it is incredibly disruptive and goes against most existing theories on flow and productivity. Planning an hour session later is a mitigation tool, though it is arguably an extremely poor one.
>But there's definitely no substitute for having everyone available every day, at the same time as the rest of the team.
And you know that based on an experiment which has been going on in an extremely informal manner for 20 years? Remote work was deemed "impossible" and "no substitute for real work", but many of us seem to do just fine. Let's not count our chickens before they hatch.
> goes against most existing theories on flow and productivity
There's no contradiction; the whole premise is that those are measuring the wrong thing, that the cost of misalignment and building useless things dominates those concerns. That matches my experience.
> Let's not count our chickens before they hatch.
Look, if you've got some magic way to make things work then great. But an hour at the start, thirty minutes each week, and an hour at the end, is absolutely no substitute for having someone in your daily standup; I've done both (or pretty close to it) and it's night and day.
What you’re really looking for is office hours.
If you’re self conscious about asking questions, how is it easier to do it in the moment with your entire team also listening in, as opposed to a direct IM, or email if you’re worried about disturbing the busy expert?
And how often do people have questions for experts? More often during the beginning of a project, then there’s a lull, then maybe some more questions as you find things you hadn’t thought of, then another lull, and then more questions towards the end where you are trying to close all the loose ends.
Daily standup requires you take up the expert’s valuable time in equal amounts during all those periods. And you have a bunch of people listening in who have no reason to be in that conversation. (A single 15 minute standup with a team of 8 is straight up 2 hours down the drain. And that does not include any of the context switching costs, or the cost of interrupting someone doing deep work).
Wouldn’t it be much bette to setup a 1 hour meeting on day 1 of the project with the expert (doesn’t stand up add a whole role, scrum master, whose only purpose is to direct people to the correct experts, basically? Well, use them if you don’t know who the expert is...prior to scrum we simply went to our team lead for situations like that). A 30 minute follow up at the end of the week.
Then another 30 minute follow up a week later and a 1 hour meeting a week later close to the end of the project.
That’s 3 hours worth of time from the expert in a span of 3 weeks, but the expert gets to hold forth for those entire 3 hours, without having to waste 12 out of 15 mins listening to useless crap. That’s a straight up 20% saving over the stand ups, gets you a full 3 hours from them, as opposed to 20% of the time, gets their attention in decent chunks of times, where you can have a real discussion, interrupts them 4 times over 15 working days as opposed to 15 times, and only includes those who are directly relevant to the discussion as opposed to everybody.