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> The trouble with digitizing analog mediums (especially vinyl) is how much your equipment can alter the sound. Given a different tonearm, cartridge, amp, etc, the same record can sound very different.

Would a scan done with a laser turntable[1] be better? The wikipedia article mentions that it produces a much better capture than regular tonearms, although they are much more susceptible to dust.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable




I was wondering the same thing! For the dust problem, I’d like to imagine that the machines could be modified with an air pump to blow away anything ahead of the pickup. One probably wouldn’t want that extra noise in a listening room, but for archiving, it wouldn’t matter.

I guess when you can get a ‘good enough’ traditional turntable for a couple hundred bucks but an ELP laser turntable costs over $14,000[0] the economics just don’t make a lot of sense. I wonder how much the IRENE systems cost.

[0] https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=elp+turntable...


It doesn't seem that hard to post process a laser scan of a record to remove dust and scratches with at least 95% success.

If you have two copies of the same record, even much better results should be possible.

This is such an obvious idea that I assume people have tried?


It's the equalization that had the kids thinking 78 was so obsolete & bad sounding compared to our 45's and the upcoming 33's back in the early 1960's.

Naturally it was all the fault of the RIAA.

By that time almost all new record players had the recent RIAA standard equalization built in, by compensation in the audio playback circuit based on the published RIAA engineering standard which had emerged.

Otherwise the 45's & 33's would have sounded nasty themselves since way less bass frequencies could be represented mechanically by the analog carving of the signal into the _microgrooves_ of the more-compact discs and not as many highs could be recovered at the slower playing speeds.

Compared to 78's which had plenty of space between the grooves since there was only one tune per side.

When they first tried to track smaller grooves more closely to get more tunes on a disc, the playback needle would jump out of the groove if more bass frequencies were not removed relative to 78's, before cutting the groove.

So almost all vintage record players which have speeds for 33, 45 & 78 [which is almost all of them] play everything through the RIAA circuit, so the 33 & 45 sound correctly equalized but the 78's are miserable because of the EQ even though they are turning at the right speed.

So 78's always sounded lousy since the beginning for me and everyone younger, even including a number of years older, and I was already a critical listener before The Beatles started making records.

78's had never been able to contain the full analog level of bass either, so their equalization had been engineered by each record company as best they could based on their advances in materials & electronics as the 78's were developed and had become popular. But there was no real standard and each record company made occasional improvements over the decades of 78 dominance.

To begin with a record album was a boxed set of these single-tune-per-side 78 records.

Then came the RIAA and an industry-agreed standard for equalization so popular music could continue to be distributed in audio form at prevailing prices on 45's & 33's, but at a cost of pressing closer to sheet music than 78 albums.

Plus there was going to be stereophonic sound with each channel on either side of the microgroove, fully compatible with monophonic by nature. Stereo 78's were never going be an actual thing, they had always been mono.

After RIAA, single 45's replaced the single 78, and 33's replaced the multi-78 albums with a single full-size disc.

Anyway by the time the 1990's came around I decided to do something about the EQ thing.

Firstly studying RIAA compensation using plenty of vintage 33 & 45 vinyl, as well as numerous other-peoples-circuits, then fully pursuing the NIH approach as if it had never been done before.

Numerous AM/FM/Turntable/8-Track combo players were being finally discarded, and they had come from various price-points in design & manufacturing, some very expensive consoles. A few times I was able to use a Dremel to simply saw out the audio portion of the PCB for testing, then later trim out only the RIAA sub-section for further testing in an otherwise all-reference rig.

Music CD's were already more popular than ever, so next had to design a flat analog circuit having less noise than a CD can reproduce. Could then fully confirm the best results would not be obtained using CD versions as references.

Then adding only passive components made my RIAA curve out of it.

Simply eating away at my excess gain & headroom willy-nilly compared to what I had seen and it came out great. Some EE's will probably relate to the math involved to select RIAA component values. The proof is in the testing. Much more testing than math & soldering.

Then came the 78's and no more math, just soldering & testing.

Sure had gotten a lot of pattern recognition done by then though, this was by design.

It was assumed the RIAA curve had been adapted from previous but disparate 78 EQ curves, so that was attempted to be reversed.

The best references were the ones by Elvis, Bing Crosby, Chuck Berry and a few other very popular artists who had simultaineously released new singles on 45 & 78 even after everyone knew 78's wouldn't be available for most releases after a number more years.

Some of the tunes could also be heard in vintage movies where they had sounded as intended, rather than ugly like 78's played on a late 1950's 60's or 70's turntable always did.

With numerous classical from US and Europe, some jazz, show tunes, pipe organ, and of course the 1812 Overture to go along with the pop music, another trend thought necessary was to make sure the Deccas came out good at the same time as the Capitols since they were often more numerous at the time.

During this reiterative process the best styluses could be selected.

When all was said & done what made people's jaw drop was The Tennessee Waltz by Les Paul & Mary Ford.

This was so popular a hit that the previous owner had obviously left it on their heavy-arm original 78 player for at least hundreds of plays, collecting little dust between plays but still the total amount of dust expected over that period of time. The music was about halfway scratched out of the groove and it was ugly :-(

Apparently they had never played the other side of the record though, it didn't have any words to the song anyway and you couldn't even dance to it at all. Record companies would never put a popular song (or even ones having popular potential) on both sides of the record, and Paul & Ford had already been on the air a lot. Nope, this was just Les Paul solo picking on some experimental electronic techniques at the time, using his own handmade equipment like nobody else had either.

This was also the harder phenolic pre-vinyl, vintage vinyl never sounded that good, even through the audiophile excesses of the '70's.

:-...\.


> 78's which had plenty of space between the grooves since there was only one tune per side.

Hence the appearance of the 12" 45 rpm disco single in the 1970's, which sounded a heluva lot better than the 45, especially in the base.

It was even better to score the "promotional copies" which had no bubbles in the plastic or other flaws. I don't know if the PCs were pressed on a separate line or were just hand -picked from the normal production run, but they sure sounded good.


The most high-fidelity record I know of is the direct-to-disc recording of Carlos Santana and Paco de Lucia in acoustic duets.

Unlike the others in the direct-to-disc series, there was supposedly no console between the artists and the input to the master record-cutting stylus, and no remixing after recording.

The difference was quite apparent, and I have always been convinced that the fewer electronic components between the artist and the listener would yield the best reproduction.


I've never even heard a simply amplified PA system sound as good as the acoustic instrument the mike is attached to. This is with high end pro equipment, not home audio stuff.


Wow! There's a book in here, waiting to be written.


I've been hesitating less, since Covid.

Hence the wall of text.


Here's a short video clip from ELP (Japan): https://youtu.be/W_4sooWCh_Y.


Literally the only advantage of a laser turntable is that they don't wear out the disc with repeated plays. They are worse in literally every other respect, especially sound quality, since they have no method of pushing dirt and dust out of the groove, so the record has to be perfectly clean, which is essentially impossible.


>They are worse in literally every other respect, especially sound quality, since they have no method of pushing dirt and dust out of the groove

How big of an issue is this? I imagine that the same peice of dust that can be pushed aside by the stylus can also be blown away with a blast of compressed air, so blowing the record prior to playing it should solve any dust-related issues. It might not be viable for everyday listening, but for archival purposes that might be worth it to get a better copy.


Laser players are pretty rare, but those who have them say it's a huge issue, and the noise from dust and dirt is very distracting. It's apparently very difficult to get the records to be sufficiently clean.


> dust

I wash my vinyl with liquid dish soap before playing, then air-dry them. It removes all hair, grease, dust, etc. Not a spec left.


Old 78 records were produced with equipment from recording to cutting and pressing that is long since obsolete. Even if you overcome the challenges of dealing with laser equipment (dust, tracking).. what extra information are you really getting?. that it is useful signal more than even a dB or two above the noise I think is very wishful thinking.




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