But, as a European, I must say that the strong focus on masks on the other side of the Atlantic feels a little dangerous; over here the regions with a mask mandate have not fared significantly better than those without.
So here is the more complete CDC advice: "Wear a mask, stay at least 6 feet apart, avoid crowds, and wash your hands often."
"So here is the more complete CDC advice: "Wear a mask, stay at least 6 feet apart, avoid crowds, and wash your hands often.""
It is unbelievable that this list of behaviors does not include airing out or ventilating indoor public spaces.
Here in sunny California, where the weather in the Bay Area has been mild and warm through December 3, I find myself walking into shops or offices every day that have operable windows and doors: all shut tight.
Many of these spaces could be indistinguishable from the outdoors in terms of fresh air flow. For reasons I cannot fathom this simplest (and healthiest) mitigation is not practiced.
Yes, I should have been more specific, but the issue here is if they don’t even care to properly wear a mask to prevent accidentally spreading if they are asymptomatic, then probably aren’t staying at home, avoiding crowds, or even washing their hands as well as they should be. Not wearing a mask or wearing it improperly is a pretty good indicator that person is not taking covid seriously.
Good question, but in my experience (anecdata, sorry) this was not the case: in the Netherlands the government advice notably did not include mask wearing throughout the first wave (public transport excepted) and indeed very few people wore them.
Do you know what the actual compliance rates are? That does not seem like a problem with mask wearing, but rather a problem with the idea that it can be mandated.
Spain has been wearing masks for half a year with 99% compliance rate (I'm not exaggerating), but you can check the numbers yourself. Masks are definetly not some panacea so many want to believe they are.
You do not really need a mask if you are out for a walk and are maintaining social distancing. It has been proven time and time again that the main culprit is people crowding indoors without masks.
If you are downvoting, please provide evidence that wearing a mask outside while maintaining social distancing has any substantial effect.
I'm not downvoting, but you're limiting what OP is saying. They never limited themselves to "out for a walk and... social distancing".
I wear a mask outside while walking and social distancing and I'm not virtue signaling. I simply personally find it harder to futz w/ a mask when coming up on people or going inside a building.
Please be a little less reflexive when it comes to this stuff. I'm sure people are "virtue signaling" by wearing masks. But coincidentally they're also limiting the spread of COVID-19. Let's focus on the latter here.
I am responding to the complete CDC advice. The comment before that is the virtue signaling I am talking about. They focus on mask wearing only without also advocating for social distancing.
They're lamenting people wearing masks improperly, not giving advice or advocating for anything.
It really seems like you're just reflexively jumping on this stuff. Mask wearing is good! Even if you're not social distancing it's better than not wearing a mask and not social distancing.
It's also worth saying there's nothing wrong with "virtue signaling". It's indistinguishable from... actually having the virtue.
It's not virtue signalling, it's awareness signalling.
Wear the damn mask, and wear it properly. This tells the world that you get it, that you take it seriously, and that you're probably doing all the other trivial but necessary things also.
Yes, it's slightly inconvenient. But generally no more so for you than for everyone else. So get over it.
Also, use your turn signal, even if there are no other cars within 100 meters of you.
Also, don't leave your shopping cart in the middle of the grocery aisle while deciding which product to select, even if no one else is presently trying to get past you.
Do all the simple things that signal "it makes more sense to be courteous and clear, than to demonstrate disregard for others (whether purposeful or oblivious, because they are often hard to tell apart)".
In addition, it can be awfully hard to ensure that what started out as a well-distanced walk around the neighborhood remains well-distanced the entire time.
When I'm walking early in the morning, I carry a mask with me in case I encounter other morning joggers/walkers and can't easily cross the street at the time.
CDC specifically states that transmission occurs with prolonged (15+ minutes) contact in close quarters (less than six feet).
I would love to see confirmed cases of transmission from merely walking by someone when outside.
I seriously don’t get the pull up the mask thing when I walk by someone outside. I’m not going to do it and I have zero expectation the other person do that either.
> CDC specifically states that transmission occurs with prolonged (15+ minutes) contact in close quarters (less than six feet).
No, that's not correct at all. But if I may take a guess at what you meant to write..
Those are guidelines based on estimated inflection points where more time or less distance increases the likelihood of transmission.
They are presumed to be good-faith estimates, but they are based on difficult-to-collect data. It's probably reasonable to draw the conclusion that, if fully observed, the guidelines would drive R0 below 1.0 and the trendline would follow.
But that doesn't mean that no transmission occurs in other situations. People sometimes sneeze unexpectedly. It takes a fraction of a second to put on the mask that prevents that event from becoming risky, or at least uncomfortable. Cheap insurance.
It's also important to realize that "walking by someone while outside" can take many forms, so it's not clear that we're all talking about the same thing. Jogging on a narrow path is very different from strolling on a beach.
Different measures are appropriate for different cases, but it's never harmful to use the mask, it's a reasonable habit to get into, and it makes people around you more comfortable. What's the trouble?
Part of our current issue with covid is that you can find virtually anything to support whatever you want to believe. Myself included.
So I guess it’s 15 minutes of cumulative exposure over the course of 24 hours.
Indoors, sure wear a mask. I wear a mask where required indoors. But outdoors no thanks.
What’s the trouble? A behavior devoid of reason is nothing more than a ritual. Furthermore, it sets the expectation that the behavior does actually provide tangible benefit leading to a false sense of security and lead to riskier behaviors than what would have otherwise occurred. Finally, masks are not created equal. How do I know the mask “you” are wearing is actually worth a damn?
> A behavior devoid of reason is nothing more than a ritual.
Absolutely. But we're not in "devoid of reason" territory here, we're in "with complex and sometimes impossible to quantify reasons" territory.
So here are two people:
- Person A is an epidemiologist-statistician who has run the numbers rigorously for his part of his county, factored in the likelihood of inter-county travel, and concluded that there's no benefit for any party to be wearing a mask in the specific situation they expected to be in when they left the house this morning, and that that situation is perfectly aligned with the reality of the day.
- Person B is an average underinformed conspiracy theorist who thinks COVID is all a scam perpetrated by the medical establishment for more funding and to undermine Dear Leader and that it would go away like magic in the summer, no the fall, no the winter if only the media would stop talking about it and 5G.
Neither person is wearing a mask. Neither person is wearing a baseball cap.
How can you (random sidewalk passerby) tell the difference between these two people?
I wear a mask, no matter how smart I'm feeling that day.
(Note that this is not a response to why one should wear a mask, just a light observation of a positive side effect! But there is value in signalling, even if it's just to normalize the behavior so that the reluctant just stop bothering to protest about such a simple thing, and thereby get a jump on any asymptomatic spread that occurs semi-randomly in populations.. :)
If you were being at all honest about looking for evidence of transmission from incidental contact, here's an interesting study from Korea[0] revealing COVID-19 transmission in only five minutes from more than six feet away. Indoors, in this case, but an actual bonafide case that suggests airflow is airflow, and being outside might or might not be the magic we all hope it is.
Here's the conclusion from the study that was linked: "Droplet transmission can occur at a distance greater than 2 m if there is direct air flow from an infected person. Therefore, updated guidelines involving prevention, contact tracing, and quarantine for COVID-19 are required for control of this highly contagious disease."
Walking by someone is an interaction measured in seconds. If that person is infected and shedding via aerosol then a plain cloth mask does not offer much protection. The cloth mask would offer some level of protection if the infected was shedding via droplets from sneeze/cough/etc.
If there's direct evidence that wearing a mask on my walk around the neighborhood offers significant benefits then I will reconsider. To this point, I just haven't seen anything that supports this behavior.
CDC guidelines are about likelihood of transmission, not certainty.
It's considerate and respectful to wear a mask when around other people. If you're not going to do it, then all I ask is that you stay far away from me and mine.
How should I know what type of mask to wear to make you feel comfortable? Every mask is different, you know.
Because that’s ultimately what this 24/7 mask wearing is about - demanding others engage in specific behaviors to make yourself feel better.
I view this as personal responsibility and that’s how I conduct myself. I should draw boundaries for myself with what is and what is not okay and operate accordingly. I don’t expect anyone to change their life to account for my insecurities.
That's a really bizarre takeaway, and a huge switch from "I'm not going to do it," which is what I was responding to.
If I see a person wearing a mask, even one of those single-ply gaiters that seems to be much less effective than three-ply cotton masks, I still understand that they are not one of the radical science-denying people that make zero effort to avoid infecting themselves and others, and are therefore dangerous.
Personal responsibility sounds great, and is a good start. But also, we live in a society, so personal responsibility includes doing what you can to avoid spreading COVID-19 to others.
Epidemiology is not "insecurity." That's... wow, I'm not even sure how to respond to that.
Emphatically yes. It's always possible that your assessment might be incomplete, or that the situation could change.
If you can allow for that possibility, at low or zero up-front cost, then -- I don't know, maybe it's the adulthood speaking here, but -- why would one not do so? :)
The idea is to establish the habit, so that you do it automatically every time, including the relatively few times where it really matters.
It's easy, it's never harmful, frequently helpful, and occasionally saves lives.
I ride motorcycles, so I have had more opportunity to think about the importance of turn signals than others might. But I also drive cars, and I believe the benefits are universal and have zero negative consequences, so I include this as a minimal-effort suggestion.
I actually sort of agree with always using turn signals, if not really the other point. There are a lot of behaviors that make sense to do reflexively because, if you have to think about whether to do them this time you may forget or incorrectly decide not to another time. Presumably you wouldn't think it was OK for them just to go through a red light because they don't see any other cars around.
Call it whatever you want, but if I see someone who can't be bothered to wear a mask, I'm not going to just "take their word" that they have been maintaining social distancing.
If they aren't doing the bare minimum, that I can see with my own eyes, I have no reason to believe they are also social distancing.
Then it is literally "virtue signaling" but in this context it's entirely appropriate to require people to virtue signal.
It's also an interesting illustration of why things like virtue signaling are a sociological phenomenon to begin with. They're hard-wired into us, for good reasons.
I see a lot of talk about "virtue signalling" when it comes to mask wearing. The implication is that those who wear a mask outside do so to broadcast their left-leaning world view to others, and those who don't wear a mask outside are taking a neutral stance and not broadcasting anything at all. But I think the reality is that non-mask wearers are also wanting to send a signal: something like "I'm not a sheep. I think for myself. You can't tell me what to do". Is there a name for this kind of signalling?
People should just shut up and wear a mask. (And social distance. And wash their hands. And refrain from touching their face. And, and, and)
If there's even a 0.000001% chance that you could prevent the spread of a rampantly spreading disease that has hospitals in many regions at or above capacity, by putting a damn piece of cloth over your face, then just do it. It's not burdensome.
I think about past generations in the US that had to sacrifice mightily in the great depression or WWII, and then I look at today and how many people are whining over petty nonsense like this, and I shudder at what the country has become.
"Virtue signaling" is the all-purpose response to anything they don't wish to do solely because you wish them to do it. They don't have to engage with whether or not it's a good idea. They don't have to engage with whether you're being serious or not. It's just a two-word dismissal: if you care about it, it must be wrong, and no further thought is necessary.
For me, it has a convenient counter response: nobody using the term "virtue signaling" has anything useful to say, on any topic. It's "vice signaling", their call-out to their buddies that they, too, don't like anything you say solely because you say it. They're not listening to me, except for the purpose of rejecting it reflexively, so there's no point in talking to them.
I frequently see people walking off of the sidewalk for a few seconds to maintain social distancing. They don't seem to have any issue doing this, as there is usually enough space between sidewalk and car lanes to not have to walk into traffic.
edit - If you need to take a walk through downtown Los Angeles or somewhere where it is physically impossible to social distance, then yes wear a mask.
The sidewalks here in the UK are often so narrow your can only just fit two abreast. We seem to have quietly understood the need for one to step into the road to pass, these days. I am not sure I can even recall someone walking past me in close proximity.
hi - US Citizen in College Town with low covid19 and high compliance here.. One liners, either from Public Health Advocates, trendy social media people, or well-meaning neighbors who exercise control statements as a method of interacting with others, are not going to "fix" the problems of covid19 today.
As an avid bicyclist I do not wear a mask on long distance solo bike rides, and I get harsh or worried looks from seniors. However, I understand the details and am not exposing myself or others.
A major challenge in public health messaging is the intractable problem of lack of context and lack of intellectual effort by all parties. Mix in serious consequences and you have a recipe for conflict quickly.
So "virtue signalling" is a one liner, my post is a one liner (almost) and, public health officials face millions of inconvenienced, ill or panic'd people with their "one liner"
Please wash hands, be mindful of others, take it seriously and no, I do not wear a mask on my long distance solo bike rides.
I mean, yeah, wearing a mask whenever you're outside sends a signal that you're virtuously helping to control the pandemic. That seems like a pretty good thing to me! I'd argue it's actually pretty critical; strong signals that everyone else is with you make it a lot easier to observe painful but necessary restrictions.
It sends a signal that you don't want to risk asymptomatic transmission to others, even if the likelihood is low, because the cost to you in infinitesimally small.
Maybe true but tell me, is it really that bothersome to just wear the mask, even outside?
What bothers me more is not having clear rules/instructions. So I just resort to wearing the mask everywhere, doesn't hurt me or bother me and shouldn't be controversial.
I think it's inconvenient in a number of cases - if you have an injury on your face that the mask irritates, if you're trying to eat or drink while walking, or if you're wearing glasses which fog up.
The glasses thing is actually a pretty critical issue. I've seen people wearing masks and glasses by themselves in cars while driving with the windows closed. In that scenario fogging glasses makes wearing the mask more dangerous to people around you than not wearing the mask...
Of course, none of this is to say that in all these cases, even outdoors, that you shouldn't wear the mask if you can't social distance or need to go indoors. You totally should! But giving people the stink eye when they're 30 ft away from everyone else and outside and mask-less seems a bit much. It doesn't seem like there's any justification for that outside of shaming non-conformity.
Other commenters here are saying things like - if there's a .0001% chance this pre ents harm to you or others, then it's your duty to not do it. I'm a teetotaler; I wonder if these folks drink alcohol.
This is one of the few things I draw a line at. I absolutely wear a mask indoors in stores etc. And I'll pull up a mask/neck gaiter outdoors if I'm approaching other people, even if I'll be somewhat distanced from them, especially if they are wearing masks. But, no, I don't if I'm on deserted forest trails or if I'm 50 feet away from anyone else.
I've rarely eaten at an outdoor restaurant since March, I haven't eaten indoors at all, and have been generally minimizing trips to stores so I'm conservative. But I'm not going to do something just to send a signal that I'm a "good" person.
But, as a European, I must say that the strong focus on masks on the other side of the Atlantic feels a little dangerous; over here the regions with a mask mandate have not fared significantly better than those without.
So here is the more complete CDC advice: "Wear a mask, stay at least 6 feet apart, avoid crowds, and wash your hands often."