> looks like your sampling has a bias error.
>If you don't live in Sweden any more, how do you make friends with the non-Nordics who moved to one of the Nordic countries and decided to stay there?
I live in Sweden and I upvoted bedobi‘s post. I came here with idealistic notions of what Sweden was supposedly like (also encouraged by the myths perpetuated by many expat Swedes that I met), and became disillusioned with the reality pretty quickly.
Now I hate living here but it’s too difficult to leave with a Swedish wife and kids.
I’d say three-quarters of the people that I’ve known through the years who moved here like me, have left by now.
Also I wish people wouldn't constantly be lumping together all the 'Nordic' countries as though they were an interchangeable entity. They have similarities and share similar languages, but the cultural differences are much greater than outsiders appear to think.
In the case of 'friluftsliv' the Norwegian concept is way more generally about hiking in the wilds. (Affluent) Swedes do often spend their summers in a cottage out in the country, but in my experience this involves a pretty static existence in rural surroundings, and physical activity is mostly restricted to going to whatever beach is nearby (either on the coast or an inland lake). I love walking or cycling in the countryside and I'll rarely meet anyone doing the same unless they're walking their dog close to their house.
When I was in Norway it seemed like way more people were interested in putting on a knapsack and heading deep into the forest.
> Now I hate living here but it’s too difficult to leave with a Swedish wife and kids.
Native Swede here. I felt the same way living in the US (minus the kids). Now having moved back, I realize that the problem was not entirely the US, most of it was my own attitude. I won't claim that every country is equal, but there are often good and bad things about most countries, and I haven't seen a perfect one yet. Being an expat in a country though you will notice every little flaw, or anything that's different from what you're used to. Things that annoyed me disproportionatly included paying rent with paper checks and the look and density of US cities. There were a million things like that, along with more serious issues like politics and healthcare. Meanwhile you are partially (sometimes completely) blind to the problems of your home country.
Try to be cognizant of this and try not to be bitter, it's not worth it.
>Native Swede here. I felt the same way living in the US (minus the kids). Now having moved back, I realize that the problem was not entirely the US, most of it was my own attitude. I won't claim that every country is equal, but there are often good and bad things about most countries, and I haven't seen a perfect one yet. Being an expat in a country though you will notice every little flaw, or anything that's different from what you're used to. Things that annoyed me disproportionatly included paying rent with paper checks and the look and density of US cities. There were a million things like that, along with more serious issues like politics and healthcare. Meanwhile you are partially (sometimes completely) blind to the problems of your home country.
Try to be cognizant of this and try not to be bitter, it's not worth it.
This is a sideline, but I want to be very clear: I don't hangout with expats (I'd say 90% of my friends are Swedes), and I have no illusions whatsoever about the faults of my original country (the UK), which I would never move back to. As a person who grew up in England with parents from Spain who were Basques, I'm actually very critical of 'patriotic' sentiments, and extremely aware of the personal biases that they involve.
I'm definitely not bitter - but I'd say it's typical of you as a Swede to characterize my hatred of Sweden in that negative way.
> I'm definitely not bitter - but I'd say it's typical of you as a Swede to characterize my hatred of Sweden in that negative way.
I just shared my own experience, which I would call bitterness. Basically, I couldn't appreciate the good parts because I was blinded by the bad parts. Maybe there's a better word than bitter, I don't know. I won't assume our situations were identical, so feel free to disregard what I said if it doesn't apply to you...
Then I'm curious, what country would be ideal for you to live in? And have you lived there as an adult? In my experience, you only get a true sense of a country if you live there as a working adult, even better if you have kids. As a student, or short term visitor, there's no way of knowing what it's like. That's why my image of Sweden was so rosy (and also because I didn't know anything else), I hadn't actually lived there as a working adult by the time I moved back. Likewise, my view of the US took a sharp turn for the worse once I entered work life there.
I and my spouse are US citizens living in Sweden. We enjoy it very much. I could think of moving to Norway; similar enough culture, and I miss mountains. My spouse could think of moving to Denmark, because of the better tasting food. Neither of us want to move back to the US.
As a difference, I didn't come here "with idealistic notions of what Sweden was supposedly like" because I visited the country for about 12 months in total, scattered over 7 years, before I decided to move. And I did long-term visits (up to 3 months at a time) in a few other places too, before deciding on moving here. Nor was my move because I fell in love with a Swede. (Though my spouse moved here after we got married.
The worst time for me was the lack of housing in Gothenburg, which made it impossible for us to find a place after we got married. (I had been renting a small room in someone else's apartment.) We moved to a small city without the nightlife or activities of the big city. I found it quite isolating. But for us, having kids connected us to a different part of the city.
Your situation sounds tough. I have no words of wisdom or insight. Kämpa på?
> Your situation sounds tough. I have no words of wisdom or insight...
I wish I hadn't said I 'hated' living here - that was an unconsidered comment that really doesn't properly reflect how I feel. Let's say 'dislike'.
There are other places I've lived that I'd prefer to move to, but I'm happy in my job and content with my home, and have a lot of good (mostly Swedish) friends, and to stay relevant to the thread, I love outdoor life (though to balance that, as others have mentioned, allemansrätt isn't as easy or all-encompassing as one is led to believe).
I think the disillusion is a large part of my problem. And the fact I haven't seen sunshine for over 2,5 weeks...
I'm 100% in the "dislike" camp, right there with you. And the sun. And the never-ending rain and mud this time of year. (7-8 months.) Almost never snow. sigh
Could you give us a list of some things that are so terrible in Sweden? I have a gut feeling that it might also be different depending on where you originally come from. As a German I am pondering moving to the Nordics, because there are many small things that would be different and appear better, but in general I expect it to be much more agreeable to me than say the USA.
Based on the years I spent there, I'd say it's more about expectations rather than anything else. Foreign media (as well as the Swedish media and politicians) has a tendency to point out Sweden as the perfect example of everything (until the pandemic, that is), but in reality it's just another European country with a majority culture derived from Germanic bronze/iron age tribes.
There are small differences, of course, but the main differences between living in Sweden, Denmark, or Finland is basically down to language differences (especially here in Finland) and different ways of managing various administrative tasks. Norway is a bit of an outlier, but it's not really _that_ different either.
I've never actually lived in Germany so I can't tell how different it would be for you, but it's not like there's any radical change in peoples' manners and culture if you walk from Flensburg to Padborg and the way I see it, it's more of a cultural continuum stretching northwards, rather than a bunch of separate cultures.
If you want to live in the Nordics then go for it. We like to bitch and whine about it, but there are few other places that are so delightfully average.
Native Swede here. I don't exactly hate it but I don't love it.
The thing is though, you are basically Swedish now. You stay for exactly the same reason most of us natives stay. It's bad enough to loathe but good enough to never leave. (Until retiring in Spain or Thailand.)
I live in Sweden and I upvoted bedobi‘s post. I came here with idealistic notions of what Sweden was supposedly like (also encouraged by the myths perpetuated by many expat Swedes that I met), and became disillusioned with the reality pretty quickly.
Now I hate living here but it’s too difficult to leave with a Swedish wife and kids.
I’d say three-quarters of the people that I’ve known through the years who moved here like me, have left by now.
Also I wish people wouldn't constantly be lumping together all the 'Nordic' countries as though they were an interchangeable entity. They have similarities and share similar languages, but the cultural differences are much greater than outsiders appear to think.
In the case of 'friluftsliv' the Norwegian concept is way more generally about hiking in the wilds. (Affluent) Swedes do often spend their summers in a cottage out in the country, but in my experience this involves a pretty static existence in rural surroundings, and physical activity is mostly restricted to going to whatever beach is nearby (either on the coast or an inland lake). I love walking or cycling in the countryside and I'll rarely meet anyone doing the same unless they're walking their dog close to their house.
When I was in Norway it seemed like way more people were interested in putting on a knapsack and heading deep into the forest.