> yet as Muslims they self-identify as separate from the Han culture.
By all accounts they appear to be justified in doing so.
> The Muslim community has a very us vs them mentality which is not healthy for national unity that china CCP desires.
Perhaps the CCP should find a model for national unity that Uighurs would overwhelmingly give their enthusiastic consent to.
> China has a 5000 year old culture and a majority of people experienced significant hardships and starvation in the last century.
>This Uigher generation is suffering so the future uigher can fit into the society better.
What relevance does the historical suffering of the Han? population have to do with the current, actively manufactured suffering of the Uighurs, beyond bitter vindictiveness?
> They emphasize national unity (vs individalism) in a way western people cannot even begin to understand, but belonging to such a group is not entirely bad. This Uigher generation is suffering so the future uigher can fit into the society better.
"Prepare to be assimilated; resistance is futile"
"Surrender or die."
There's a reason the Borg were considered villains.
Nobody wants to read this on HN. If you disagree post why you disagree, an insult like this serves no purpose other than alienating alternative opinions. If I had the karma I would flag you.
Nobody is advocating genocide here. This is completely obvious, it is not his intention... you are exaggerating the situation. Who in their right mind would do this? And if you read his post it's obvious he is not doing this.
The chinese actions are atrocious but an accusation of saying that holocaust level genocide is getting advocated here is a huge difference.
You can tell him he's wrong because you believe that the chinese are conducting genocide. You do not start a witch hunt by accusing him of advocating genocide which he obviously is not doing.
And it's also possible China is completely in the wrong. I'm not even advocating for an even sided situation, I'm advocating understanding the situation first before throwing an accusation.
What we do know is this... we have people on the inside of Hong Kong and we know that in Hong Kong China is not conducting mass genocide or opening up re-education camps in Hong Kong. This is different from what's happening with the Uighurs... we need to know what prompted China to react much more heavily against the Uighurs (as opposed to Hong Kong) and we also need to confirm whether the alleged "genocide" is real.
The post that was called disgusting is indeed a valid alternative viewpoint quite possibly from someone closer to the situation than your average white guy.
Also keep the outrage in check. Even a modern western country in 2020 is capable of this crap. The US has their own detention camps open today. It exists using a technique called extraordinary rendition to get around American laws. The camp is called gitmo and there are some real pictures about some really horrible shit that went down at gitmo.
> I'm advocating understanding the situation first before throwing an accusation.
"We don't know what's going on" is a lie. We know. Some people chose to ignore / justify. You are sadly in good company when it comes to the history of denying genocide.
> "We don't know what's going on" is a lie. We know.
I'm not lying, but I could be mistaken. I'm not mistaken about the rape of nanking or the holocaust. There are pictures of mass slaughter, graves and even severed heads on the pikes of japanese soldiers to confirm the depravity and existence of these events. My own grandfather witnessed the events and tells me first hand accounts of the rivers of blood in nanking. The japanese denial is sickening, and you accusing me, a descendent of victims of such slaughter, as someone who denies genocide displays incredible immaturity.
I am not denying genocide, I am simply saying extreme accusations need extreme evidence. So your next task is clear:
Show me pictures of the same slaughter that you claim the chinese are doing right now. I promise you I will do a full 180 if you show me some actual pictures of the massacre that you claim is happening right at this very moment. Show me some dead bodies, executions... etc.. etc.
> Show me pictures of the same slaughter that you claim the chinese are doing right now.
You are the one setting the bar at "mass slaughter". Sorry, that wasn't and isn't what is being discussed. Mass interment, violence, rape, retaliation against one's family for political crimes, forced sterilization, etc. The evidence for that is legion, you have access to the same information I do. Look it up yourself (if you care).
Mass Slaughter and genocide are the same thing. You claim I'm denying genocide, so the according to you I'm actually setting the bar LOWER then mass slaughter.
These are your words:
>You are sadly in good company when it comes to the history of denying genocide.
So now you're claiming we aren't even talking about genocide? That there is no mass slaughter? Seems to me ur changing the subject.
Oh. I see. It's an english language problem. Someone doesn't know an english word and is misusing it all over the place. Look up the definition of the word genocide:
Look, mass sterilization is bad. But genocide? Under that logic anyone who ever got an abortion is a killer. Or maybe anyone who wanted to have a baby but changed their mind...
Colloquially when people use the word genocide they use it in place of mass slaughter, that is the intuition behind the word and that's how people use it. If you use the word genocide in place of mass sterilization, you and the organization who decides to use/define the word in that way are manipulating the perspective of the situation because Everyone is well aware of the intuitive meaning of the word "genocide". When people hear "genocide" they hear "slaughter" and "killing"... mass sterilization is the last thing they think about.
Here's a thought. Rather than use the word "genocide" why don't you just say "mass sterilization." Don't throw down a word that can be mistaken for slaughter for your own manipulative gain. You could have easily, very easily clarified your intent earlier, but you didn't because you are manipulative, or you don't know common colloquial English.
I vote that you're just being manipulative. The rest of your English grammar seems fine, you just want to start something rather than be level headed.
You're massively out of line with "Someone doesn't know an english word and is misusing it all over the place." and "I vote that you're just being manipulative. The rest of your English grammar seems fine, you just want to start something rather than be level headed."
Guys don't be stupid. Colloquially we all associate genocide with killings, the oxford definition captures this fact. We all know it, you can look up the formal term but when someone utters the word genocide the last thing they think about is sterilization. They think killings. We all know this by common sense. You guys are using technicalities to further an argument for no reason.
In addition to this the technical terms are all different so it's not like I've been proven wrong. My oxford definition actually incorporates the word "killing" so we can argue about technicalities till forever or we can not be stupid and admit that when people hear or use the word "genocide" they think about "killings" "murder" and mass "slaughter"
Under the other definitions basically an abortion clinic becomes a genocide clinic. We don't associate abortion clinics with genocide... nothing is out of line here At all.
You guys can cite the UN definition of genocide but nobody uses that definition in the english language, it's really too big a of an essay for someone to hold in their head. Realistically when you see the word in an article or uttered by a person it's using the oxford definition which is the exact context we're in right now.
> Colloquially we all associate genocide with killings, the oxford definition captures this fact.
No, we don't, and the Merriam-Webster definition [0] captures this fact: “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group”.
As does the Britannica [1] definition: “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race.”
While killing the individual members of a group is a common mechanism of genocide, the killing the “-cide” in the term refers to is the killing or destruction of the group as a group, not the killing of the individuals who constitute the group.
> you believe that the chinese are conducting genocide.
Reducing this to a "two sides" issue is shameless deflection. What part of the dozens of reporting done on Xinjiang do you think is false, and what facts are you basing that on?
Genocide is a very serious accusation. The word is thrown around in this thread in a trivial way as if you can accuse anyone of advocating it. Let me spell it out for you: Pretty much no one advocates this. You're coming at him saying "I never said it was at holocaust levels" as if that makes a huge difference. This is mass human slaughter we're talking about.
He described it with the word "Holocaust" for two reasons. To detrivialize the usage of the word and because I've seen numbers being thrown around as if millions of people were exterminated.
>"concentration camps are bad but.." No but. There's no but there.
There is indeed a but. The US put the japanese in concentration camps in the past. This does not raise them to the same position as Hitler gassing the jews.
>I am going off first hand accounts and confirmed facts. What are you doing?
Confirmed facts of genocide? Show me some pictures. Show some proof. The seriousness of the accusation demands serious evidence.
>Reducing this to a "two sides" issue is shameless deflection. What part of the dozens of reporting done on Xinjiang do you think is false, and what facts are you basing that on?
He's reducing the issue to an "all sides" issue. Insulting an alternative view point is reducing it to a "one side" issue.
Let's keep things utterly clear here. It is completely wrong to build internment camps. Completely. But it is also completely and utterly wrong to silence another view point and accuse someone of genocide.
You don't solve an issue by attacking the people who created the internment camps without understanding the situation which caused them deploy such drastic procedures in the first place.
> Let me spell it out for you: Pretty much no one advocates this.
Oh I'm well aware (almost) no one will come out explicitly and endorse concentration camps. What they do is almost more insidious, they justify them. They rationalize them. They spin them as something they are not.
I'd rather someone be an open Nazi than to perform their mental gymnastics in public to avoid challenging their world view on something as simple as "mass interment camps are bad." "Well you see they aren't interment camps...they were criminals anyways...how dare you compare a work camp to a death camp?"
It's sickening, all of it. Your spin of "it's not the same as the holocaust" (no one said it is) and "yeah but whatabout the US!" is sadly par for the course.
The US put japanese people in in concentration camps and most US citizens supported it. Does this put most US citizens on par with Nazis who gassed and experimented on Jewish people? No. It does not. Americans did it out of fear, not out of evil.
There is a huge difference here. When you say genocide, it is equivalent to holocaust. When you say concentration camp it's equivalent to gitmo at worst or the japanese concentration camps. Both could be happening but one is drastically worse than the other and genocide needs confirmation.
> Your spin of "it's not the same as the holocaust" (no one said it is) and "yeah but whatabout the US!" is sadly par for the course.
> The US put japanese people in in concentration camps and most US citizens supported it.
Amazing, your lack of self-awareness. Your deflection and whataboutism can't even let up for a second. In case you need yet another reminder, this thread is about Chinese camps.
> There is a huge difference here. When you say genocide, it is equivalent to holocaust
You are saying this. You. You are pushing the argument to the extreme ("everything is a holocaust") to discredit what is actually being said ("these are mass interment camps with systemic violence and arbitrary punishment"). It's an argumentation technique that doesn't work when the other person knows what's happening.
What's going on here is you're misusing the word genocide. See the comment in the other thread.
Genocide is mass killings, not mass sterilizations. If you get very technical you can call a sterilization a killing but that's just a deliberate misuse of the term.
When someone hears the word genocide they hear slaughter. They don't hear oh that population was sterilized. Let's not be stupid about this.
I minded. Because his opinion is in line with what the Chinese perspective.
We as americans vehemently disagree, but a chinese citizen, after witnessing several terrorist attacks by the Uighur which slaughtered hundreds of chinese people, will obviously have a different perspective. This isn't a one time isolated incident... these were multiple attacks occurring with no end in sight.
Rather than not minding insults to opinions you disagree with, why don't you have an open mind and post why you disagree rather then insult the person you disagree with?
Uighur attacks only happened after a decade of repression. The CCP govt moved Han chinese into the region and took away employment and other things that Uighurs used to enjoy turning them into second class citizens. Some people out of frustration committed the attacks which is exactly what CCP wanted to fully go in and start clearing and fully occupying them.
You sound like a Han Chinese. Imagine yourself in their shoes. There's lots of Chinese diaspora in other countries. What if one of the countries decided to do that with the Han Chinese? Would you still side with the host country?
Imagine yourself in the shoes of the person who was killed by a bombing. Imagine yourself knowing family members or your kids getting slaughtered by these terrorist attacks.
Let me put it to you clearly. The situation is complex, no side is right, but to bury the action of one side and justify the actions of another because it's convenient for some stupid US-China rivalry is the wrong way to view it.
I'm not saying either side was right. I'm saying it's wrong to comment on how this is disgusting. It is a valid opposing perspective, just like how your perspective is valid.
What isn't valid is insults and a mass mob mentality.
I'm not American so the US-China rivalry comment is not relevant to me. If my family was killed by a bombing attack I would want to get to the bottom of why it happened in the first place without just blaming an entire population and justifying their genocide.
I am not saying that jihadist extremism is not to blame. But I don't think an entire Uighur culture is to blame either and especially not Uighur people who are being victimised.
>I'm not saying either side was right. I'm saying it's wrong to comment on how this is disgusting.
It's not wrong at all to comment on this. What the Chinese govt is doing is plain disgusting and they should be held accountable just like anybody who is supporting them. We hold extremist groups who carry out attacks responsible, so why not a racist, genocidal govt who instigated the whole thing anyway?
>I'm not American so the US-China rivalry comment is not relevant to me. If my family was killed by a bombing attack I would want to get to the bottom of why it happened in the first place without just blaming an entire population and justifying their genocide.
When someone bombs your family you take the time to find out why they were bombed and try to understand the otherside before shutting down the otherside.
But when someone voices their own opinion. You just call their opinion disgusting and accuse them of genocide.
The man is obviously not supporting genocide. If the chinese are supporting genocide than the man obviously doesn't know but an accusation of genocide needs extreme proof and right now there's only rumors.
Maybe what's really going on is you're selectively applying your empathy to whatever suits your preconceived viewpoint.
>When someone bombs your family you take the time to find out why they were bombed and try to understand the otherside before shutting down the otherside.
I didn't say I would try to understand the side that bombed my family. Those would be the terrorists. I said I would get to the bottom of what happened and why it happened. I would not condemn an entire people or a culture (unless of course every single one of them believed the same thing as the terrorists) to seek some sort of sick justice. Please don't invent things I didn't say.
>The man is obviously not supporting genocide. If the chinese are supporting genocide than the man obviously doesn't know but an accusation of genocide needs extreme proof and right now there's only rumors.
It's not rumours. There is genuine proof. My own government declared it as genocide after investigation (Canada).
>But when someone voices their own opinion. You just call their opinion disgusting and accuse them of genocide.
My comment was directed at the Chinese govt and whoever supports them (obviously knowingly). I didn't call his opinion disgusting. Please learn to comprehend at a level above that of the sixth grade.
>Maybe what's really going on is you're selectively applying your empathy to whatever suits your preconceived viewpoint.
Yeah and you are selectively applying your generosity in trying to understand those you disagree with to whatever suits your needs.
>I didn't say I would try to understand the side that bombed my family. Those would be the terrorists. I said I would get to the bottom of what happened and why it happened. I would not condemn an entire people or a culture (unless of course every single one of them believed the same thing as the terrorists) to seek some sort of sick justice. Please don't invent things I didn't say.
I didn't invent anything you said. I'm telling you what you should do.
>It's not rumours. There is genuine proof. My own government declared it as genocide after investigation (Canada).
Alright. Show me the pictures of the mass killings and the slaughter that's occurring in China. I want to see pictures of the executions and the graves. We have pictures that corroborate the events of Nanking and the holocaust show me the pictures of the genocide that's occurring in China.
>My comment was directed at the Chinese govt and whoever supports them (obviously knowingly). I didn't call his opinion disgusting. Please learn to comprehend at a level above that of the sixth grade.
This whole topic is about a comment calling the original topic disgusting. My comment is defending the original comment. You attacking me is agreeing with the premise. Stay on topic.
>Yeah and you are selectively applying your generosity in trying to understand those you disagree with to whatever suits your needs.
I'm not. Show me the pictures and proof of the "genocide" and I'll do a 180. I'll believe you.
>I'm not. Show me the pictures and proof of the "genocide" and I'll do a 180. I'll believe you.
>Alright. Show me the pictures of the mass killings and the slaughter that's occurring in China. I want to see pictures of the executions and the graves.
Again you've shown yourself to be no more mature than a sixth grader. First, educate yourself about definition of a genocide. It's not all "mass killings and graves" that you are lusting after. A genocide can be a systematic destruction of a people through incarceration, torture, humiliation, destruction of language, cultural practices etc. simply based on their race, culture, or religion. Same thing that's happening to Uighurs. Vox did an expose a couple months ago using satellite imagery to find hundreds of mass detention and slave labor facilities corroborated by statements from victims.
A genocide is systematic destruction of people through killing. That is the oxford official definition and that is the colloquial meaning of the term. When people hear the word they don't think torture, they don't think cultural assimilation, they don't think birth control.
They think slaughter.
Using the word genocide in the way you define it.... makes gitmo become a genocide camp. You're own civilized neighbor the US of A is also basically conducting genocide of middle easterners under your highly convenient definition.
But I don't need to tell you this. You know this already. You throw down that word with the full knowledge that whenever you use that word people will think mass killings. You only fall back on a convenient definition when someone calls you out on the technicality. This is what the articles you read do to manipulate the sentiment, and you accept it because you enjoy calling China a country that is conducting mass genocide. You enjoy perpetuating China with a reputation that is an extreme version of the truth. This is what's going on.
I would tell you to educate yourself but the mind is not only limited by what it is capable of learning but also by genetics. Your limitations are of the latter kind, there is nothing for you to learn because you are already aware of what you're doing.
There's nothing left to argue on the main topic because we both never disagreed that detention camps exist. We can argue about the definition of the word "genocide" and about how your misguided brain works though, I'm sure there's still a disagreement on those two areas.
With regards to Gitmo, you are again purposefully lying. There are plenty of arabs and muslims living in USA with no problems. We have comedians (Hasan Minaj) making fun of Trump. Which Chinese, let along uighur, can make fun of Xi in China?
Now since we both agreed that the detention camps exist, and also the women of that group are being sterilized against their will, it meets criteria b, and d of the Genocide under the UN charter.
As for my genes, they're full capable of learning and not limited by brainwashing as you have been subjected to. Sorry for you and the rest of the CCP shills.
No it's not. First off he's not advocating genocide and second off you need proof that genocide is happening before you can make such a serious accusation.
You're telling me that a holocaust level genocide is happening in China right now? Serious accusations require serious evidence. Prove it. Something like pictures of mass graves like the ones you've seen in the holocaust or the rape of nanking is sufficient for me to do a complete 180.
What's going on here is mob mentality and you're part of it.
Macron is trying to incorporate French Islam into French society. His tactics may be good or bad, I'm not qualified to say, but he certainly is not trying to eradicate a population or its culture, and he is not rounding up religious minorities into concentration camps. Whataboutism only works when the crimes are on vaguely the same scale; this is like comparing bank robbery to music piracy.
I find it quite hard to believe that there is not any degree of distinct Islamic culture that has developed in France (both in the sense of present France and the broader sense of historical French territory) under the influence on broader French culture.
And by “hard to believe”, I mean entirely implausible.
I am not well-versed in the details of Macron is doing regards Islam in France, but I am certain that he is not committing genocide, which is what the CCP is doing, and what the OP is defending. Like arguing that the Nazis were doing the jews a favour with the holocaust. Beyond, beyond, beyond ludicrous. I don't even know where to begin with the idea that the victims of genocide benefit in any way from said genocide.
It won't. The Jews in Germany weren't offer even the shitty options the Uighur have. The German state never tried to assimilate the jews. Even worse - the government sent to the camps even jews so thoroughly assimilated that it was surprise to them that they were having Jewish ancestors.
Uighurs have been committing terrorist attacks since way before these camps have existed: 1992 Ürümqi bombings, the 1997 Ürümqi bus bombings, the 2010 Aksu bombing, the 2011 Hotan attack, 2011 Kashgar attacks, the 2014 Ürümqi attack and the 2014 Kunming attack. And bombing a shrine in Bangkok killing 20.
Home made bombs dropped in markets, driving trucks in to crowds of people, random knife attacks. Doesn't sound unfamiliar here in Europe. They're all reading from the same book.
What China is doing is pretty horrible but it's not like Xi woke up one day and decided he didn't like Uighurs.
The CCP has been colonising its western territories for decades. Your defence and denial of genocide throughout this thread is pretty vile all things considered.
