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Ask HN: I just wasted 4 years of my life. Now what?
18 points by guynamedloren on April 26, 2011 | hide | past | favorite | 23 comments
Hi HN, this is a long one - grab your popcorn.

[Removed some background info due to length, but the gist was that I’ve had the entrepreneurial bug for as long as I can remember]

I just graduated from the General Engineering program [1] at the University of Illinois in December, and I can tell you that my time spent at UIUC was absolutely horrible. Year after year, I was told things would get better- “These are just weed out classes, don’t worry. Things get better after this.” Year after year, things stayed the same. In four years, I never felt inspired or motivated. I tried switching majors, but was strongly advised against it due to a weak job market in the target field (industrial design). I couldn’t drop out or start over, because upwards of $100,000 was on the table for my education. I was surrounded my classmates who didn’t give a shit about engineering or learning – their priority was making it through the week so they could get trashed on the weekends. For a guy who doesn’t drink, it’s difficult to socialize with these kinds of people. I laid low and pushed forward. I studied for exams and did homework, but I never felt like I was an engineer. I always felt like I was just doing busy work and that none of it really mattered. I never felt like I was learning. Perhaps it was just my program, but you can imagine my distaste for engineering that was built up over the 4 year period. It was the worst 4 years of my life.

Now that I’ve graduated, apparently I am supposed to be looking for an engineering job. But I’m not, for two reasons. The first is that I feel as though I am severely underqualified. My final GPA is somewhat low (2.9) as the result of taking almost no GPA-boosting gen ed courses, and I have never participated in an engineering internship. Instead, I spent time helping entrepreneurial family members build their businesses and worked on building businesses of my own. Ultimately, most of my personal business endeavors failed, but the experience gained was invaluable. The second reason is that I have a strong distaste for engineering, and could not picture myself being an engineer or working in an engineering-related field.

It’s not all bad, though. About 6 weeks before graduating (Dec ’10), I had the urge to learn Ruby on Rails. I have always been computer literate and tech savvy (html + css), but computer science seemed like an elusive, mystical thing. Programming? That’s only for really, really smart kids, right? Wrong. Turns out it’s actually pretty easy. I started reading a few tutorials in late October and things finally clicked in January. Since then, I’ve been programming constantly. I code for 10-16 hours a day until I get burnt out and fall asleep, then I wake up and do it again. I love every minute of it. My desires go beyond being a code monkey for the rest of my life, but for the time being, it’s wonderful. I love the startup scene and I could see myself doing this for the next few years.

Since January, here’s what I’ve made:

www.letspocket.com – note-taking tool (my first app)

www.madebyloren.com – blog engine written from scratch, with admin and comment system

www.peak4x4.com – full-featured offroad enthusiast network, with tagging, notifications, etc

www.boxify.me – file-sharing tool for groups (quick one-day app while AWS was down)

www.snowday2011.com – one-off t-shirt website aka “4-hour profitable startup”

In addition to the personal projects, I also built an inventory/tracking system for a biomedical waste processing facility, but the project is currently on hold due to founder issues.

I am thrilled with how far I’ve come over the past few months. I have I have tons and tons of ideas and I want to bring every one of them to life. I never thought hat I could build things like these, and here I am busting them out one after another. I’ve been so focused on learning and building since January that I’ve almost completely neglected monetizing. Funds are running so low that I probably won’t even be able to make next month’s rent. I would love to keep building apps, but it doesn’t seem feasible unless something changes (aka get a job or learn to monetize). So now I’m getting desperate.

Here’s my big dilemma: I am supposed to be seeking a job related to my area of study, but I want absolutely nothing to do with that field. I’ve fallen in love with programming, but I don’t feel as though I’m qualified enough for paid work. I have a wide variety of skills (design, UI, html + css + javascript, Ruby on Rails coding), but I’m not excellent at any of them. I am also somewhat unconventional, as I have yet to learn to write good tests or follow TDD, for example.

I am not opposed to working for a startup, but who wants to hire the self-taught guy with 6 months programming experience when they can hire the guy with years of experience and a comp sci degree to prove it? I would enjoy freelance work (programming or design) but there are better programmers and better designers out there. I would also be competing for work with international freelancers who charge next to nothing on sites like freelancer.com.

So what do I do? Do I apply for the engineering job I have a slight chance at getting hired for, but will probably hate? Do I apply for programming positions that I am underqualified for? Do I attempt to compete for freelance jobs? I feel like I’m stuck.

I’m pouring my deepest thoughts out to perfect strangers. I would sincerely appreciate any advice and input you can offer. Thanks!

[1] For those of you who are unfamiliar, the General Engineering program is a cross-breed program where students study core engineering principals, but maintain a focus in another area of study (finance, business administration, etc). I chose entrepreurship as my focus.




First of all, you didn't _waste_ four years. You learned a ton of things in that time, and while you may not have enjoyed it, the knowledge and skills gained are now a part of your being. You never know where things that you learned will come in handy down the road. Without spending that time and learning to focus and push through, you would not have been able to bust out five projects since January at that level of quality. To speak apocryphally, Steve Jobs did not become a professional calligrapher, but taking calligraphy classes in college affected the focus on typography when he was working on the Mac, so it was not wasted time.

People become programmers with degrees in philosophy, english literature, french, physics, and any number of other subjects. Yes, you may not have the theoretical backing that a computer science degree holder does, but for 99% of the programming jobs out there, you do not need it, so in practical terms as long as you have passion for learning, it's not a great obstacle.

As far as practical steps - well, if you are just worried about paying bills and getting more experience, start doing contract work. You may not get hired by a company, but you obviously already know enough to be able to bust out simple sites very quickly - and there's always simple work to be found for small businesses, because most people skilled enough to do the work, prefer to work for a steady paycheck, and people who are skilled enough and don't want a company job, usually charge prices that small businesses cannot afford. So there's a nice little niche for students/upcoming developers that they can fit into for the first year or two.

Once you build up a resume of good work and a few references, you can start looking for full-time work, or start charging incrementally more and putting money aside so you can afford to take a couple months off from contract work and focus on monetizing your own projects.

I'd also suggest moving to San Francisco for a year or so - the market and the pay is better here than almost anywhere else in the country, and being a fresh graduate with few obligations, you're at a unique moment of freedom of movement in your life.


Step 1. Apply for coding job.

Step 2. Get coding job easily.

You are easily qualified for a junior position. There is such a derth of talent compared to demand for anyone who can code, which you clearly can, that you will easily be able to find a job, assuming you can relocate.

>I am not opposed to working for a startup, but who wants to hire the self-taught guy with 6 months programming experience when they can hire the guy with years of experience and a comp sci degree to prove it?

No body; unless your engineering background helps with the project/domain. But that doesn't matter if you are just looking for 'any job'. You will easily find one.

In programming people have learned (especially startups) that experience and education mean almost nothing compared to a few thousand lines of good code.


Absolutely agree. With the amount that you have produced in the last 6 months, I am envious. I did the CS degree, a year of grad school, an internship, and a couple undergrad research projects. Still, you've produced much more than I have in that time. Get out there and talk to people, someone will hire you.

Also, take it from a guy who 'wasted' ~12 years working for a grocery chain, you've got plenty of time left. Forget the engineering stuff, do what you (obviously) love.


agree with both statements above. You just have to position yourself as a productive programmer. Although in terms of possibly engineering solutions or understanding concepts and fundamentals you may not be knowledgable, you produce product which says a lot by itself. In startups I think production trumps fundamentals, but not by much, but hopefully you'll work under someone that can teach you.

to just comment on the entrepreneurial aspect you're looking to fulfill, you really lack focus. I fall under the same thing as throwing out many things and seeing what works, but hopefully you find a passion project that you can get behind and keep at it for some time. Being an entrepreneur is much more than product.


As a CS major (junior), I often find that when I think assignments/exams are uncomfortably hard I tend to pour my energy into other hobbies that are seemingly less stressful at the time and convince myself that this new fleeting hobby is my new passion (like the time I decided to write the first ten chapters of my great new novel in the middle of a 24hr coding exam). Moral of the story: Coding is hard, and just because it comes easily to someone at first doesn't mean that there aren't going to be those days when it's frustratingly, nail bitingly difficult. The reason I say this is because you sound as if you're inclined to give up or cease to try when things get difficult. If coding really is your passion, the best advice I can give you is to find a project you love and obsess over making it perfect every single day, even when you run into a problem that is seemingly impossible to solve.

As for technical advice, I would suggest you familiarize yourself with as many languages as you can. I started coding in C, and while I rarely use it for anything other than assignments it has definitely helped me in terms of understanding concepts and constructs for other languages. I've never used RoR, but I'm assuming that you've at least learned the basics of deploying a web app. Try learning Python/Django, JSP (I hate it, but lots of small businesses in my area use it and it's great to throw on the resume), PHP, etc. You'll find that there are a lot of similar concepts.

I'm in the job hunt myself and every single recruiter I've met has said that the best thing you can do is to expand your programming skill set. If you've even so much as finished a basic tutorial in a language, list it on the resume. Build up your portfolio with as many completed projects as you can. Don't listen to what you're "supposed" to do - I was "supposed" to be an English major because I got an 800 on the SAT verbal. The point of CS is that you take the rules and bend them beyond the point of recognition, and the sooner you start thinking this way the better.

Anyway, good luck and I can only hope that the passion you have for coding now stays with you during those tough moments ^.^ (Oh, and don't worry too much about familiarizing yourself with TDD, Agile, etc. There are a ton of books on safari on the subject - read those, familiarize yourself with tools like git, trac, or any version control system, and you can get by)


Keep your chin up. Your example sites look really good and there are lots of companies that would hire someone with 6 months experience. Under-qualification is a state of mind.

More specifically, if your GPA sucks, don't put it on your resume. Talk up your strengths, get out there and I promise you'll find a job as a programmer and it won't be as painful as you think.


Wanna know a secret? I actually learnt programming on the job.

Way back when all the small businesses were run on MS Access, I somehow managed to get hired at this non tech company and while trying to build some fairly sophisticated management systems, taught myself how to prgram.

Life hasn't been the same since.

My point is dont worry about the past. Code for the future, live for the present.


Well also keep in mind that having gone through an Engineering program, all other things put aside, you know how to open up a book and learn hard things on your own. This means that anything that you do not know and need to know you can learn in short order. And as has been pointed out do not look to your short comings, real or perceived, look to your strengths. There are plenty of people who will be happy to tell you whats wrong with you, generally just ignore them.


If you can, do freelancing. You've got an amazing and exciting portfolio. Go find a local business who could do with an update of their existing website, or ask if they need some software to make their lives a bit easier. If they ask what you've done in the past, you can show them.

To be able to show stuff you've made is an excellent start.


Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and support. Any other tips for finding freelance jobs? I have done some freelance work in the past, but it has always been for family and family friends. I've never put myself out in the open like you're describing, so any tips would be fantastic.


Are you open to relocating to San Francisco?


Absolutely. My only obligation is that I have a girlfriend here in Illinois, but they make airplanes for that, right?


Exactly. Just sent you an email. Let's chat.


would love to join the chat if you're still having any.. planning to move to SV as well to get a full time job


guynamedloren, with your passion and experience, I can see the following happening:

Day 1: Move to Bay Area, Day 2: Land job, Day 3: Chase dreams

Just show employers what you've done and what you want to do. They'll understand if it doesn't coincide with your degree, and frankly, I don't think they'll care about it.


Wow, this is very encouraging, but is it really that easy? I know the bay area is thriving with tech jobs, but I still feel like it would be a challenge.


Yes it is. The SF Bay area is a bit insane/awesome in that department. I would suggest you calibrate yourself correctly ... if you think you're underqualified, you are doing yourself a disservice. Frankly, I would suggest not even starting your job search for 2 weeks-1month when you move to the SF Bay area. Go to tech meetups, participate in a hackathon or two, hang out at Hacker Dojo, Noisebridge or cafe's in Mountain View. Basically ... get plugged in. It is hard to explain Silicon Valley until you actually go there IMHO. Be vary of posers, and remember that talk is cheap. Once you calibrate yourself, get a job. Show them your portfolio. Mention that you have an engineering degree as icing. I'm sure you have some math courses and decent communication skills. Highlight these as well. Be prepared that you may not get well compensated or work with the best people, and have to switch after 6 months (armed with the stuff you know then, you will be better off).

That said, I think you should reflect on the "coding is easy" attitude. I don't think that is correct. My undergrad was in CS and I used to think I was a code poet ... until I started doing professional coding. I personally consider coding to be more of an art than a science. I do it because I love it and it gives me more happiness than things like playing video games. As an art, I feel it will take a lifetime to perfect. I got a PhD in CS a few years ago but you know what? I still learn new things about coding almost every day. I hope it gives you a lifetime of happiness as it gives me.


I agree with what iqster said. If you do decide to come to the Bay Area, definitely familiarize yourself with the state of tech here first (and network like hell!) and look for a job you love doing. Being a code monkey is only fun if the project is fun. Good luck and stay strong!


Entrepreurship is simply engineering at a different level. The jump from building stuff to building businesses is significant, but if you enjoy building and enjoy challenge, then you may do very well.


Wow, I love LetsPocket. It's simple but great. I am kind of jealous I didn't think of something like that.


Thank you so much!


What tutorials got you started with rails?


http://railstutorial.org - by far the best one out there




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