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The Sickness in Our Food Supply (nybooks.com)
132 points by Thevet on June 13, 2020 | hide | past | favorite | 60 comments



> This is why the meat-plant closures forced American farmers to euthanize millions of animals, at a time when food banks were overwhelmed by demand.

“Euthanize” is a euphemism. What pig farmers have been doing due to the shutdown is not painless euthanasia, it’s industrial-scale animal cruelty. The linked article and videos are not for the faint of heart.

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-venti...


Stuff like this is why I don't eat meat. Combined with the ag-gag laws that prevent this from being more exposed, it's wild how inhumane our treatment of animals has become.

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missin...


> Stuff like this is why I don't eat meat. Combined with the ag-gag laws that prevent this from being more exposed, it's wild how inhumane our treatment of animals has become.

I understand these concerns, but please consider that this would never happen under Organic/Permaculture and sure as hell not under Biodynamic farms. They'd all lose their certification, and most are adamant on using the most humane ways in livestock raising. The first cow herd, for meat, I ever took care of in Germany ate better than I did. They could only eat a diet of silage (fermented grass) and fruit from the farm in addition to hay.

Gassing them would not only be cruel, but its also a quick way to end being able to get your beef sold at 22 Eur/Kg faster than anything. I'm not going to lie and say its perfect, their are things that I think are inefficient in all of those, but its the cost of having an actual healthy relationship with the Earth that provides the food we eat.

In fact one cow we had got an utter infection because we couldn't bottle feed the calf, it just wouldn't eat and was showing signs of anemia, so we had to isolate the mother and child and get a vet to apply local antiseptics and herbal remedies to cure the infection. This required like 5 separate visits from the vet, which was the child of a local farmer and family friend. The calf was just fed from another cow that didn't let it bite it, so it quickly learned to not do that and eventually got weened to grass by Spring when they went to pasture.

But that gassing is just one horrible example of many in what it entails to do a race to the bottom pricing model based on State Subsidized Ag/livestock models. It's horrible for everyone involved and should be a bigger issue than it is.

Especially now that we see how ineffective they are under a severe stress test like COVID. Consumers can vote with their money, waiting for regulatory changes and practices to be enforced are simply not teneble, monetarily incentivizing farmers to move away from this model is the only real way to make this work.


I have, in the past, purchased from a local farmer whose cows lived well. I'm not opposed to the idea of eating meat, but here in the states of you get meat somewhere you haven't vetted, the provenance probably includes animal cruelty.


Not trying to equate pigs to humans people at all - however, see this as a parable:

If these were people being tortured to death, would you say that monetarily incentivizing torturers to move away from this model is the only real way?

It makes no sense to me. If it's not illegal, it should be. Soon.


> It makes no sense to me. If it's not illegal, it should be. Soon.

It won't be though, most of my activism has been for farmer's rights and if you think petitioning government to go against its corporate lobbyists is not just realistic but not a total waste of time you don't understand the paradigm you're talking about.

That effort is better spent to more productive ends: Food Education is key, as is story telling; just look at the explosion of foodies and Influencers on Social Media in the last 10 years, specifically because of programs from Anthony Bouradain and Chef's table. And my personal favorite Dotchi no Ryouri from Japan, which is an awesome model that I hope gets resurrected. Hell, many of my fellow cooks, be it in Europe or the US were drawn to culinary because the original Iron Chef from Japan which had more reverence for the ingredients and story telling than anything that came before it. We all wanted to do something that lived up to that narrative.

The adage: 'you only win by creating a better paradigm' best sums up this situation. Not waiting for regulators and legislation to innovate should resonate deeply amongst fellow tech workers destined to want to disrupt the monoliths. The Truth is, Agriculture, and the Food Industry as a whole, is the proverbial Goliath and the organic/permaculture/Biodynamic farmers are the David.

Its time more people realized that and acted accordingly: don't like a Law? Use your only real vote you have in the West (money) to negate it, eventually this will lead to things like Marijuana being decriminalized and regulated by individual States in defiance to the Federal Government, and Hemp going from a schedule 1 drug to being 50 state legal and having CBD products found at your local Safeway and on Amazon right now. I should know, I was there and active in that space for both of those things in the US.

Lastly, livestock are not Humans; we are doing an unnatural (all Agriculture is) process, the best we can do is follow cruel-free models that enhance the animal's life that results in an amazing end product. Asking for anything more is literately impossible.

And making that analogy to Humans takes us into murky waters I'd rather not venture, as its more philosophical, perhaps even bordering on sophism.


It might be the case that organic farms treat animals better than factory farms. But the reason factory farms exist is because the demand for meat is so high that non-factory farms simply wouldn't be able to meet it without using vastly more land and resources than we have available.

So we can talk about customers should buy from "humane" farms and what not, but that has to be paired with a massive reduction in meat consumption for it to be possible. Society can't just keep eating the amount of meat they do, and at the same time only buy from "humane" farms.


The demand would not be too high if it were not priced at that virtually requires extreme cruelty to both animals and workers.

Americans also eat far more protein than reasonable. There is no reason the inhumane farms can’t be drastically reduced, except that people are accustomed to dirt cheap excess meat.


> It might be the case that organic farms treat animals better than factory farms. But the reason factory farms exist is because the demand for meat is so high that non-factory farms simply wouldn't be able to meet it without using vastly more land and resources than we have available.

I understand this question, but its made from the premise that it could deliver the goods during the pandemic; where in reality, it didn't. So mamy stores had shortages, and processing plants were shut down due to COVID related deaths and those that did deliver were in such short supply that stores had restrictions on how many a person could buy in one visit, further driving the argument that it didn't work.

It also negates why Farmers are seeing all time high sales for their products [1].

> So we can talk about customers should buy from "humane" farms and what not, but that has to be paired with a massive reduction in meat consumption for it to be possible. Society can't just keep eating the amount of meat they do, and at the same time only buy from "humane" farms.

I'll agree, N and S America consumes way too much meat than the rest of the World by a large margin, its unfathomable to me now, but when I first moved to Europe I was the same way. I was farming, so 12+ hours of labour a day, and by the end of the day my body was crying out for animal fat and protein and would suffer if it didn't as that was how I was raised most of my Life to eat: 2:1 protein to carb ratio, 1:1 meat to vegetable.

It took a lot of work, but that is no longer the case and my health is way better for it; I now rely on a more plant fat based diet (olive oil, coconut) with animals based proteins being only eaten 2-3 times a week and carbs (rice, bread, potatoes) and vegetables to fill the gaps. I eat a lot more eggs and hemp based protein, but those are sustainable and renewable sources.

I also mainly made my meals from the 'scraps' from working in restaurants as a chef over the years and I really only eat once a day, so in total it was a net negative footprint. I also fed a lot of younger people in FOH that way, too. I still have a freezer full of salmon and tuna in my freezer as there was so much of it.

There is also this analysis on Tyson that I thought was a really good read [2].

1: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/nutrition/farmers-are-selli...

2: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/analysis-tyson-foo...


I would also like to add halal farms as well.


Could you elaborate on that please?


Halal slaughter is unspeakably cruel. The throat of the animal is cut and it's left to bleed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah#Islamic_slaughtering


It may be cruel compared to some ways, but not in comparison to torture for hours.

I have read other accounts of "Halal" slaughter in industrial settings. Basically a big machine built to cut the throat, but in practice it's much much worse than either traditional practices with a knife and "normal" industrial practices.


Why did this sort of thing happen in the US? As far as I can tell nothing like it has happened in Europe. We also have all sorts of subsidies and controls on agriculture.

Our supply chains here (Scandinavia specifically, but as far as I know in most of Europe as well) have been functioning almost as before except for a few minor hiccups in the first couple of weeks of the restrictions due to COVID-19 (flour and yeast were in short supply for a couple of weeks).

Is it because Europe has stronger animal welfare provisions? Or something else?


ag-gag laws is one reason. Many people don't even realize the cruelty that is happening, let alone on an industrial scale. The meat industry has a powerful hold on politics, gets a ton of special treatment (compared to fruit and veggie growers). I pay 3$ for a single big organic cucumber (not a pound, a single cucumber). Compared to this, meat is so cheap here, especially chicken.

People are used to cheap meat for so long. It is going to be very difficult to loosen that dependence. So in effect, even if some people are aware of the cruelty, they choose to ignore because they get cheap meat.

Another problem is consolidation. A few companies control a large portion of the food supply and we have the "too big to fail" problem.


That is a very good question. There have definitely been large coronavirus outbreaks in slaughterhouses all over Europe that have disrupted operations, maybe not in Scandinavia but certainly in countries like Germany and France.


But did they disrupt things so badly that massive numbers of livestock had to be just destroyed?


truth, brother

cull gas exterminate

let’s call it like it is


Pretty terrifying, they killed them with steam, not even something like carbon monoxide exhaust.


The people behind this should serve prison time.


I don't usually agree with this line of thinking, but just a thought experiment

- if you equate 10 thousand pigs to one human being, these people just in cold blood tortured several humans worth to death, to make some money.


[flagged]


We are a shortsighted species. Today we tear down statues of former slave-owners, tomorrow statues of today's carnists will also be torn down.

When will we realize the universal truth that all sentience must be respected? It is getting old now, movement after civil rights movement behind which the underlying message is the exact same. Rather than fixing every instance of this problem, why do people struggle so much to see the big picture and fix it entirely?


Amen.

* We as people tend to believe our own thinking.

* The ego controls all thinking.

* The ego is the cause of all human sorrow and suffering.

* The ego uses thought to preserve its imaginary self.

* The ego can create an argument against anything.

* the ego will generate arguments against any anti-ego presentation, thus blocking what is being presented.

* Most humans live their entire lives without ever having observed the background of awareness.


This article starts with a correct premise:

> The retail food chain links one set of farmers to grocery stores, and a second chain links a different set of farmers to institutional purchasers of food, such as restaurants, schools, and corporate offices. With the shutting down of much of the economy, as Americans stay home, this second food chain has essentially collapsed. But because of the way the industry has developed over the past several decades, it’s virtually impossible to reroute food normally sold in bulk to institutions to the retail outlets now clamoring for it. There’s still plenty of food coming from American farms, but no easy way to get it where it’s needed.

Pollan identifies the representative problem:

> One chicken farmer interviewed recently in Washington Monthly, who sells millions of eggs into the liquified egg market, destined for omelets in school cafeterias, lacks the grading equipment and packaging (not to mention the contacts or contracts) to sell his eggs in the retail marketplace.

But the article then goes on to attack all of Pollan's usual bugbears: mergers, globalization, corn, and soybeans. Which have nothing to do with the problem he posed.

He claims:

> Local food systems have proved surprisingly resilient. Small, diversified farmers who supply restaurants have had an easier time finding new markets...

But, frankly, citation needed. Small farmers can't just call up their local supermarket and say "hey can you take a field's worth of arugula off my hands? No sorry I don't have any way of packaging it into retail portions, I've always sold in food-service size bags to restaurants."

And for cities of a certain size, "buying local" is an impossibility anyways. I live in New York City. The land required to feed us would stretch hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles around... where there are already smaller towns and suburbs that mostly fill the space. Which is why we source our food from all over the country and world.

So unfortunately, this article completely fails to find the sickness or cure.


>Small farmers can't just call up their local supermarket and say "hey can you take a field's worth of arugula off my hands? No sorry I don't have any way of packaging it into retail portions, I've always sold in food-service size bags to restaurants."

Speaking as someone who has done buying for both supermarket chains and smaller independent stores for about a decade: they absolutely can. Maybe not to Safeway/your local Kroger-owned chain, but certainly to everyone smaller than that: large regional chains like New Seasons Market in the PNW, smaller chains like Bi-Rite in SF and Berkeley Bowl -- in other words, they still have a good chance with roughly 40% of the grocery retail market. And when I would get a call like this, I nearly always converted.

Also, produce doesn't generally need to be packaged into retail ready portions -- that's hardly a problem most of the time. Maintaining availability and quality, managing inventory and buying, and keeping prices computerized and margins reasonable are much harder problems, particularly with produce, and having a direct relationship with a small producer who can be more flexible than a larger distributor can address many of those.


This! There's a Korean grocery store chain around here (Zion) that brings in all kinds of produce and the majority of it is significantly less than anywhere else local. Some of it is near it's expiration date, so due diligence is required, but at other times I think stuff is incredibly affordable because it's in season and there's a ton of supply. I've seen prices for some things hit ten cents a pound.


> This! There's a Korean grocery store chain around here (Zion) that brings in all kinds of produce and the majority of it is significantly less than anywhere else local. Some of it is near it's expiration date, so due diligence is required...

That's a workable model, provided very strict guidelines are put into place, temp controlled and freezing before expiration date etc... It just makes sense to do that than let it go to a dumpster and landfill given all the hidden costs it takes to raise animals for meat.

> but at other times I think stuff is incredibly affordable because it's in season and there's a ton of supply.

It is. That's the added benefit to seasonal menus in restaurants, it helps re-direct the supply to value added models, but also creates a direct benefit to the consumer.

> I've seen prices for some things hit ten cents a pound.

This is a bit hard to believe, nothing that requires any amount of labour to grow can realistically be sold that low and not be done at a loss for all involved.

I mean even growing herbs requires resources, labour, transport that require a higher price. Even if Ag went entirely automated I doubt we'd see that price for anything remotely called 'food.'

Perhaps a promotion to get people in the doors? That's typical in grocery stores business models.


I think the extremely low prices are mostly for fallow crops like daikon, but I've also seen navel oranges close to it at 8lbs for a dollar, albeit infrequently, which is probably oversupply from some other seller.

I'll also see rotten/moldy berries I wouldn't pay a penny for, so it's very YMMV.

Edit - The least expensive produce right now is celery at 20 cents pretty pound.


> Edit - The least expensive produce right now is celery at 20 cents pretty pound.

That's insanity, celery has a 90+ growing period [1] but if they can make it work for them. its just the water used and the labor for harvest is worth way more than that. And highlights my issue with Farm subsidies, I can't imagine what the farmer was paid.

I've been to many Asian stores (private to chains) having grown up in SoCal and raised on Cantonese cuisine, and I can't remember seeing something that low ever in even a 99 Ranch, Mitsuwa, Marukai or Hmart, let alone a private place with higher operational costs and overhead.

Then again, most would ruin their reputations if they tried selling rotten berries as SoCal, all of California really, is a pretty well reviewed and subject to backlash in Print media back then and now Social media and yelp and the like.

1: https://www.almanac.com/plant/celery


"computerized" should have been "competitive"


> One chicken farmer interviewed recently in Washington Monthly, who sells millions of eggs into the liquified egg market, destined for omelets in school cafeterias, lacks the grading equipment and packaging (not to mention the contacts or contracts) to sell his eggs in the retail marketplace.

Also worth noting that none of those impediments matter to a hungry consumer; if the farmer trucked the eggs in and sold them on the sidewalk there'd be buyers. It is entirely possible that the reason the commercial food chain has collapsed is it is straight-up illegal to sell the food directly to consumers, so it gets destroyed.

Farmers are not the sort of people who encounter a minor difficulty then think "welp, I'm just gonna destroy my produce, that seems like the best option". If that is what they are doing then there are some mighty impediments in their path.


> Also worth noting that none of those impediments matter to a hungry consumer; if the farmer trucked the eggs in and sold them on the sidewalk there'd be buyers. It is entirely possible that the reason the commercial food chain has collapsed is it is straight-up illegal to sell the food directly to consumers, so it gets destroyed.

Not true, their are models that allow for that with many caveats (Rawsome in California comes to mind), but you can buy shares in a Farm via a CSA that entitles you to the harvest. Its just that most farms are so large and understaffed that his cannot be done. Moreover, they're incentivized not to do so (see below).

> Farmers are not the sort of people who encounter a minor difficulty then think "welp, I'm just gonna destroy my produce, that seems like the best option". If that is what they are doing then there are some mighty impediments in their path.

Having been a farmer myself, apprentice and then Manager, I agree with your sentiment. The problem you seem to be negating is that crop insurance and livestock insurance via Ag subsidies are masking these culling(s) that turn losses into compensated (albeit low) actions.

Its a horrible system that leads to these things, its baked into the system and its not just in the US and Europe, its everywhere. That's how this system is in just about every country with a semblance of a 'stable government' in the World, including the developed World.


> Farmers are not the sort of people who encounter a minor difficulty then think "welp, I'm just gonna destroy my produce, that seems like the best option". If that is what they are doing then there are some mighty impediments in their path.

I agree for the most part, especially with what's happening now. On the flip side, there are times when farmers do destroy produce to manage supply and stabilize prices.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/michigan-farmers-destroy-c...

It kinda sucks for consumers, but if supply swings can bring down prices too far, they're exposed to significant financial risk.


> I live in New York City.

Vaguely related. I'm a truck driver. I recently drove a 53 foot trailer full of Campbell's tomato soup from Findlay OH to a grocery distributor in Brooklyn.

You're welcome. :)


Thank you!


Tangent warning: There's actually a large amount of produce for NYC that is grown locally. Leaving aside the Union Square Greenmarket which gets produce from as far away as Buffalo, most of the Greenmarkets have farms coming up from long island, upstate ny, new jersey and PA. And there's a small subset which is actually grown in NYC (the first time I saw the chickens in Harlem was quite confusing).


> And for cities of a certain size, "buying local" is an impossibility anyways. I live in New York City. The land required to feed us would stretch hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles around... where there are already smaller towns and suburbs that mostly fill the space. Which is why we source our food from all over the country and world.

I’m also in the city and there are plenty of neighborhood CSAs always looking for new members. When the pandemic hit I found Chef Collective [1] which previously was supplying restaurants and was quickly able to switch to home delivery within a week or two of their commercial supply chain being disrupted.

Sure, we’re not going to get, say, local couscous and olive oil. But there is certainly a lot of local farmland that can feed the city.

[1] https://chefcollectivenyc.com/


> > Local food systems have proved surprisingly resilient.

Here a historian blogs about the origins of the term 'food system':

https://www.rachellaudan.com/2020/05/looking-for-the-origin-...


Awesome! Added to bookmarks and will start reading tonight as it starts off strong.


NYC has greenmarkets.

If you visit one, you'll see produce trucked from NY, NJ, PA, MA,.. the furthest I've seen was VT.

It's sort of more local than shipping it from Brazil, but still not the same "local" as in a small town.


> Which have nothing to do with the problem he posed.

The problem is that he touches the details while avoiding the big problem: capitalism.

Or, possibly more appropriately, capitalism that marches toward absolutely, positively maximum profit with no regard to any other concept.

This is the paperclip maximizer problem but on a smaller scale.

And this affects everything, not just food. It's why we had such a disaster about medical equipment--manufacture it where we can extract the last penny vs. manufacturing locally to increase resiliency.

The discussion needs to be "How do we inject some inefficiency into capitalism in order to get some other benefits?"--resiliency, local employment, consumer responsiveness, etc. are all things to consider.

Up until Covid-19, nobody cared even the slightest iota about anything other than pure, unadulterated profit.


Capitalism is not the thing preventing farmers from easily selling this stuff directly to consumers.


Sure it is. It is more profitable to sell to a middleman who then sells to the grocery store chains because of volume. If you only sell to consumers, then the amount of food you can sell is significantly lower unless you put together your own nationwide distribution network.

Why haven't these companies reconfigured to switch chains? They CAN do this. It is a matter of time and money to do so, and they would clean up after doing so.

The problem is that everybody is assuming that we will be going back to normal in about 6 months, so anything at that time scale or longer is wasted money from the point of view of profit. Nobody will reoptimize anything until they are absolutely FORCED to as part of an existential threat.

This is all about optimizing for profit at the expense of anything else.


The underlying theory in your post seems to be that it is more profitable to not sell something than to sell something due to economies of scale.

That doesn't pass a basic sanity check when applied to food. It is much more likely something else is the problem rather than that farmers are allowed to maximise their profits.

I do agree with a basic premise that there needs to be a focus on redundancy and resiliency and that the lack thereof is a major problem. But the assumption that it doesn't make on-the-face-of-it sense for farmers to sell their produce directly to customers is in need of supporting evidence.


> The underlying theory in your post seems to be that it is more profitable to not sell something than to sell something due to economies of scale.

> That doesn't pass a basic sanity check when applied to food. It is much more likely something else is the problem rather than that farmers are allowed to maximise their profits.

Why? The consumer isn't coming to you. You have to go to the consumer.

That implies that I, as the farmer, have to pick the food, box the food, transport the food, store some amount of food where the consumer is, remove the bad food daily, etc.

I can spend 6 months setting that all up for it to become effectively useless if the supply chain all turns back on. It's a big drag on cash reserves at a critical point: maybe I want to do that setup, but maybe I should wait until after September when we see what schools are doing.

I also think that you believe that most farmers in the country are mom and pop working a couple acres. That isn't true anymore. Farms have scaled and consolidated like anything else.


Your theory is that they make more money destroying products than they would selling to another chain. That’s a pretty extraordinary claim that would require some evidence.

Remember, the capitalist nature that you are deriding means that the farmers want to, you know, make money. Why would they intentionally destroy their product if selling to customers at absolutely any price above $0 was an option?


> Capitalism is not the thing preventing farmers from easily selling this stuff directly to consumers.

> Sure it is.

I think its exactly because Free Market Capitalism doesn't exist in the gatekeeping process we currently call the 'The Market' that makes selling directly to consumers an anomaly rather than standard and is quite contrary to your argument.

You have to setup a share system to try and have a chance to lower your overheard and CapEX with a farm. Even Farmer's Markets are tightly regulated in some States, and they force you to accept SNAP/Food Stamps to be admitted into the program that allows you to rent a spot for a season. Which presents a whole other set of issues to be paid for your goods/services.

There is nothing about Free Market Capitalism in that. And your complex supply chain system is the symptom and byproduct of that perversion.

> Why haven't these companies reconfigured to switch chains? They CAN do this. It is a matter of time and money to do so, and they would clean up after doing so.

Because since the late 80-90s there has been a systematic eradication of small farms in the US by large Chemical and Biotech Multi-nationals; its a lot harder to petition Monsanto (now Bayer) to stop doing the things that have made them trillions in profits than it would a small and pop 15 acre operation and adapt to this model. I highly recommend this book written by a local journalist in Boulder, CO, called Harvest of Rage [1], and he talks about the cascade effects of ruining rural America as the food belt became the rust belt and led to extremism.

> The problem is that everybody is assuming that we will be going back to normal in about 6 months, so anything at that time scale or longer is wasted money from the point of view of profit. Nobody will reoptimize anything until they are absolutely FORCED to as part of an existential threat.

I disagree, I'm currently in discussion for a position with a startup that is going even further to capture the food loss from this kind of myopic short sighted-ness, I hope I get it as it would be a good project to really sink my teeth into.

> This is all about optimizing for profit at the expense of anything else.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean we cannot include a value system in that narrative that helps find a middle ground. We have to be flexible and understand things won't happen over night, I've been trying to tackle this very issue for nearly 15 years, hence my background. And while I always want to see more progress I cannot deny we've come a long way, especially since I was a 90s kid in the US and we didn't even know we were eating pesticide leaden vegetables: we were lab rats!

Its no surprise my generation continues to have all these food-bourne illnesses like obesity, diabetes and heart disease. So rather than opine of what should be, try to make a difference in your community. Start a community garden program and plant fruit trees around your area. This was typical during WWII and should come back in my opinion. Now that people are now able to go outside.

1: 1: https://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Rage-Oklahoma-City-Beginning/...


Pure free market capitalism is a dream that can never exist in reality. It's not politically feasible.


> Pure free market capitalism is a dream that can never exist in reality. It's not politically feasible.

Darknet Markets?

Also as a sidenote, here is the updated 'New Harvest of Rage' [1] article that predicted, among others, that Trump's election would lead to this vast polarization and eventually these protests and riots we saw this year back in 2016.

1: https://www.boulderweekly.com/news/the-new-harvest-of-rage/


Sorry, I don't buy the "Harvest of Rage" thesis.

Far more workers suffered far more terribly when the workers at steel mills, coal mines, car manufacturers, etc. all got shafted at the hands of Reagan in order for the oligarchs to bust up unions.

And all of these "good, salt-of-the-earth folk" CHEERED REAGAN ON. Such a terrible shame to see these people now sliced and diced by the sword that they were happy to see used on others.

"Harvest of Rage" is trying to excuse a bunch of bigoted idiots who aren't smart enough to figure out that maybe ... just maybe ... they have more in common with the poor city dwellers than the billionaire oligarchs.

This is not new. Quoting LBJ: "If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you."

Thoughts and prayers, red state land. Thoughts and prayers.


> Sorry, I don't buy the "Harvest of Rage" thesis.

You don't have to, but having seen in it with my own eyes I can tell you its real.

> Far more workers suffered far more terribly when the workers at steel mills, coal mines, car manufacturers, etc. all got shafted at the hands of Reagan in order for the oligarchs to bust up unions.

This isn't about whataboutism, those are all symptoms of the disease that occurs when Free Markets aren't allowed to introduce direct competition to the established players ecosystem; I can say right now having been in the Auto Industry and a car enthusiast my whole Life that Japan's dominance was already well established by the late 50s, some of it complicit with US Industry in Post-WWII Japan--I highly recommend the book Martin Bormann: Nazi in exile to see how deep Industry was in the latter years of WWII and how it led the rise of the rise of many Auto manufactures.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is the most obvious case, one that led to DSM partnership (as was Daimler-Benz and things like Operation Paperclip and staffing NASA scientists with ex Nazi/SS, but I won't go into that), that made Japanese car manufactures displace the stagnant and quite frankly obsolete designs and engineering of US manufactures. The same goes for Nissan, BMW, VW etc...

Unions are exactly what made US manufactures obsolete and complacent, and the fact that the big 3 still had them up until 2008 is partly what sent them into bankruptcy and required bail outs. There were people on payroll who paid to not show up to work, that's what a Union can do, whereas a properly Free Market rewards based on merit and quantifiable, valuable input to an organization. Granted its not perfect, but its way more effective than what made US manufactures obsolete. Tesla's story is worth noting as it's turmoil as a small car startup, with a privately funded tech based ethos, was near bankruptcy; it took the loan/bailout like the GM and Chrysler, and then paid it back with interests. And still wasn't allowed to enter many Markets because they refused to adopt the Dealership model. Very interesting worth following up on.

I cannot speak about mining or steal mills, as I wasn't even born when most of those things were pretty much gone and outsourced to China.

> "Harvest of Rage" is trying to excuse a bunch of bigoted idiots who aren't smart enough to figure out that maybe ... just maybe ... they have more in common with the poor city dwellers than the billionaire oligarchs.

That may be true, but that's not the only take away, it lineouts how its those very same oligarchs (Dupont, Monsanto/Bayer, Eli Lilly et al) are the ones that systemically took their way of life in Rural America that was based on Agriculture based lifestyles and displaced them. Its not surprise these very same regions are the ones hardest hit by the Opioid Crises, either; I'd argue they were creating their demographic in a multi-phase strategy. And again, all done with State approval.

> Quoting LBJ...

Very insightful, but only further proves the notion that Unions and even racial tensions are not much different than they are today and instead we have enabled them to dictate the terms to its populace through Lobbyists and favorable legislation, which is like the Precursor to every Cyberpunk MegaCorp-ruled dystopia.

Its also telling how much more 'American' made Japanese manufactures are in comparison to its US counterpart, many of which are made in Mexico and Central America.


So why is the intention to regulate further when regulations are the issue?



Thank you


Starting with Reagan seems optimistic; I'd blame Earl "get big or get out" Butz for your predicament.

alternative meatpacking, cool automation videos https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23367350

automation (cow and pig brushes) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23474129

(off topic, but I consider HFCS sickness in food supply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23363053 )


I just love this is now starting to get the attention, this has been a worry that has robbed me of sleep and been main focus in my Life for over a decade now. But beneath my optimism is a sense of woeful regret of missed opportunities had more brilliant minds focused on this problem as there is so much potential for loss capture and cost savings that could enable a post-scarcity paradigm to occur; one that I think could potentially have massive impact on Greenhouse emission and climate change.

I'll try to speak on these issues as I have a background in Ag and culinary and focused on locally sourced farm to table models. I also worked at BMW and VW in supply chain during some of the most mission critical things in their History (specifically Diesel-gate Tdi buyback at VW).

> But, frankly, citation needed. Small farmers can't just call up their local supermarket and say "hey can you take a field's worth of arugula off my hands? No sorry I don't have any way of packaging it into retail portions, I've always sold in food-service size bags to restaurants."

It may be anecdotal, but I can offer some insight here; the challenges you are talking about come down to margins, a small local farm doesn't have to go through a myriad of complications that come with multi-national corporations like Tyson that rely on a federated system of distribution from regions to central processing, warehouses, temperature controlled freight etc... in this way the economies of scale issue is reduced and a B2C (or farm to table if you prefer more apt jargon) can enhance total bottom line profits as it reduces the losses of having to sell at wholesale to retailers.

I've personally gotten 50:50 pricing model to am upscale local health food store that was in direct competition with Whole Foods when I ran a farm in Hawaii, and had it not been for the long stranding community outreach program that was there before I did this would have never been possible. Its more often 10:90 for other things in my experience on other farms who supply to large retailers/wholesalers, the conventional dairy in the dorf where I managed a smaller farm in Switzerland had something similar that required 3 generations of family members to work on the farm as well as have day jobs comes to mind. Whereas we could charge 11 CHF for a bottle of Biodynamicly grown apfelmost (Apple Juice) we grew and bottled on site next to their farm.

Moreover, Community Supported Agriculture models are great ways to finance the growing season(s) and raise capital, savings and help reduce future CapEx in future seasons if we have seasons like this years, where many farms have sold out their CSA and beef/pork harvests by early Spring. Mainly due to the food shortages that occurred due to relying on the complex supply chain mentioned in the article.

> And for cities of a certain size, "buying local" is an impossibility anyways. I live in New York City. The land required to feed us would stretch hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles around... where there are already smaller towns and suburbs that mostly fill the space. Which is why we source our food from all over the country and world.

Not entirely true, perhaps right now, yes; but look at projects like Square Roots [1] that is primarily focused on sending container gardens to NY, specifically in Brooklyn to try and combat this issue. Its actually a pilot test for future Mars colonization and a way to rely on local food sources. But NY has a myriad of models that have proved you can in fact have a direct Farm to Community model if the incentives are aligned, look into Dan Barber's work at Blue Hill. Or Thomas Keller's work with the French Laundry and Per Se (In NY), these are focused on restaurants but that's just a matter of scale, you can do that to an entire community if it avails itself.

I did my Biodynamic farming apprenticeship in Europe specifically because that model has been refined and unchanged for millennia to feed its population despite being from California and it's rich Agriculture History and technological advances that makes it possible to feed not just the US but a lot of the rest of the World. I wanted to understand localized food supply chains and distribution models.

Its really crazy to see how a Network is built around a farm, like a cell the Farms are usually the nucleus and everything is built around them. I wasn't farm from Alsace and Stuttgart in Southern Germany and after several trips to both regions to see what was occurring at that scale the model was still intact. In Schwäbisch Gmünd, closest area to Stuttgart it was a real challenge as the farms were way more massive than I had initially been exposed to (45 hectares) and were over 200+ with orchids, pasture, as well as gardens but that reflects the food demands of the population in the neighboring area (Stuttgart).

We had multi year contracts with several high end grocery stores and mills (Rapunzel Naturkost) and other Gmbh's we sold wholesale to that made other products with the fruits and vegetables coming from the farm where I worked at. We were horribly understaffed with little to no prospects of hiring more people, it was just 3 of us in the Winter and Spring seasons, and by Summer I had better opportunities to explore in Italy and Switzerland (with offers of culinary work and management roles) so I took them.

All this really made me think was that the this very viable model needs to be brought up to the 21st century as the vast majority of Ag has to be automated, the labour shortages are the thing holding it back the most, once that's achieved there is a massive boon waiting to happen to farmers to help optimize their distribution models and increase profits with B2B models with an emphasis on localized community supported based farms. I'm now more focused on supply chain optimization, having now fully retired from Kitchens and Farming as I destroyed my body doing so by my 30s, but I'm glad I did it as more people are moving into this space: one of my old team members at the Kitchen just launched his own gellato shop using re-captured losses in the food supply chain in Boulder after having been flown to Barber's place in NY. I'll plug his spot in my food series if I ever get it going as we spent lots of nights talking about our collective times farming and the impacts it has on the overall Supply Chain and Food Security as a whole.

For further consideration check out this recent Joe Rogan podcast with Joe Salatin [2], who was a pioneer of this model in the US and has gained huge notoriety for his advances. Awesome watch.

1: https://squarerootsgrow.com/

2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7O3fOXXKo


I think you meant to post this as a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23514055 ? Not sure though.


Correct, I hit reply on his, but HN can be odd; I get random attachments to my comments to for no obvious reason.

But, yes, that was my intention.


Seems like we need to automate more of the food industry.


'Farm' animals are the ultimate victims because they have no voice. Too many social activists start from the top-level (humans) but I think starting from the bottom-level (nature and animals) will give the most efficient change because it has a transversal impact on every aspect of human life.

If more people could feel empathy toward "farm" animals, all other social problems would start being solved.




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