Over half of doctors are glorified con-artists. The MO of modern American medicine is to sucker in trusting patients and write prescriptions and perform procedures at great cost that empirically do not work. The doctors are feeling frustrated because the jig is up. There are too many of them and society can't afford the con game anymore.
I downvoted because there are a lot of assertions here without sources or context.
My anecdotal experience, where my wife is in the doctor's office routinely due to Hashimoto's disease, is that your mileage may vary. We went to an immunologist who sat on his hands and waited for several months for her thyroid to get enough out of whack before he ordered more testing. We've had several incompetent doctors who failed to diagnose conditions that harmed her health and the health of our son. On the other hand, since we've moved and had to find new doctors, we've gotten some really helpful doctors who really know their business and have been clearing up longstanding immune problems.
The right doctors have really been great for us, the wrong doctors have really been bad.
The first close citation I found for your argument was here:
There was a study that most doctors have high standards, but they would fail to report colleagues who didn't meet those standards. However, they appear to claim that reporting would not solve the problem, just lead to its own set of headaches.
I would say that America needs to follow the money to get to the bottom of this problem. The prices of medical care just aren't commensurate with the costs anymore. Ease the financial pressure and the whole system will probably improve.
> there are a lot of assertions here without sources or context.
I don't have time to build the full case. The nutshell version is that modern medicine is dominated by pharmaceuticals. Doctors are largely in the pill dispensing business. Problem is, the pills don't work. Spend more than fifteen minutes reading about the cholesterol and statin racket for just one example, and this is a huge billion dollar thing. It's a big chunk of what doctors do to earn a living. My familiarity with the business comes from the software side of pharma sales. For another example read about long term efficacy of many kinds of chemo and heart surgery. The stuff just doesn't really work, but it sure costs a lot.
Doctors are something like the fifth leading cause of death. Malpractice is rife.
Modern medicine is great for trauma, injuries, and various acute diseases. But the financial reality of health care is that most of the spending and most of what doctors do is about lifestyle diseases, and the treatments are useless. They give pills and order tons of tests for people who should really just be told that there's nothing to be done other than better diet and exercise, or maybe bed rest. They also blow millions on people who are simply in the process of dying, mostly of old age, and the treatments are empirically known to do nothing.
"Doctors are largely in the pill dispensing business."
You do realize that doctors don't make any more money based on medications they prescribe.
"Problem is, the pills don't work. ..... and the treatments are empirically known to do nothing."
I don't really want to get into a big discussion about it because I know I won't be able to convince you. But this is just wrong. Many pills do work. Modern medicine is based on the scientific method and millions on dollars are spent on studies to prove that therapies work. Strnagely enough, insurance companies are part of the gatekeepers for this, since they don't want to pay out of their pockets to provide expensive care for things that don't work.
On the other hand, much of "natural" medicine and homeopathic medicine are based in anectodal evidence and not on any large scale scientific evidence.
"Strnagely enough, insurance companies are part of the gatekeepers for this, since they don't want to pay out of their pockets to provide expensive care for things that don't work."
Consider the economics here. If something is not expensive, you don't need insurance. So it's in the insurance companies' interests to inflate the prices so more people will need health insurance and can't pay for procedures out of pocket. The insurance companies just have to raise their premiums to compensate, and the larger the amounts of money passing through their hands, the easier it is for them to keep some of it.
I'm not attacking insurance companies, just pointing out that it's not entirely logical to assume that their interests are aligned with yours.
I'm not saying they are the only gatekeeper. But point is, pharmaceudical companies can't just create a medication and claim it "does xyz" and expect that people will pay for it. These medications are reviewed before being "covered" by insurance companies or medicare (goverenment), so it's not a free for all, as implied in the original poster's comment.
> Modern medicine is based on the scientific method and millions on dollars are spent on studies to prove that therapies work.
Sure. Take Ambien, for example. The studies show it works! People who take it fall asleep a whole 15 minutes sooner than placebo! For thousands of dollars and unquantified long term consequences you can have something pathetically less effective than lifestyle changes or some cognitive therapy sessions, so ask your doctor about Ambien.
Same for the cholesterol statins. They work! They really do lower serum cholesterol, just as advertised. However, they have absolutely no affect on mortality rates in the typically prescribed case, and are implicated in serious neurological disease...
This kind of nonsense is pervasive in the medical industrial complex. Doctors, for the most part, dispense treatments pushed on them. But the stuff is largely a waste of money.
With a whole lot of these cancer therapies you statistically buy an extra year of life. But the person who took the therapies felt like shit for four years and blew all their savings. The person who just let it be died a year earlier but spent a lot more time feeling ok and saved a lot of money. You can just go on and on with stuff like this. The medical industrial complex is deeply dysfunctional, and at the end of the day there are way too many doctors and they do too much. This is why health care spending and number of doctors per capita is uncorrelated to lifespan and health across regions of the US.
The Heart Protection Study (HPS) randomly assigned 20,536 subjects to simvastatin (40 mg/day) or placebo
After an average follow-up of 5.5 years, the following significant benefits with simvastatin were observed:
- A 13 percent reduction in all-cause mortality (12.9 versus 14.7 percent for placebo).
- An 18 percent reduction in deaths from heart disease or related blood vessel disease (5.7 versus 6.9 percent).
- A 24 percent reduction in major cardiovascular events (19.8 versus 25.2 percent)
- A 25 percent reduction in the first event rate for stroke (4.3 versus 5.7 percent) reflecting a 28 percent decrease in ischemic strokes and no reduction in hemorrhagic strokes
- Among 3982 diabetics without prior cardiovascular disease, a 28 percent reduction in the incidence of MI and stroke (14 versus 18.7 percent).
This study supports my position. 12.9 vs 14.7. From taking my statins I get a measly 1.8% lower chance of dying over a five year period, and that's a shaky assertion. It costs a fortune, I'm impotent, and my short term memory is screwed up, but hey, the doc says to take it for that 1.8%. And I suspect the 1.8% is misleading. The profile of the people who died in both groups was probably distinctly identifiable, so in effect the vast majority probably got no benefit.
And I think I've seen this methodologically refuted elsewhere. Some studies have definitely got the opposite result.
Dude, I've worked as an ER/Critical care nurse for years. I push a drug, a person's heart rate changes. I tweak a drug on an IV pump, a person's blood pressure comes out of shock and normalizes. The idea that pharmacology doesn't help people is quite simply wrong.
Sure, the protocol for Advanced Cardiac Life support changes every 2 years, because some therapies that we use to thing were very effective, are proven to be less effective than new ones. But, there is a strong self-corrective factor in Medicine. The ideal isn't to do what the pharma companies push the doctors to do. The ideal is to do whatever the best science says increases lifespan, quality of life and decreases morbidity and mortality.
At times, studies are funded by pharma companies, and the research is tainted. Current best practices are a moving target, because the science changes. But, over all, good medical practice is a big plus.
Sure there are drugs that have great promise, are pushed through FDA approval and then are found to have bad side effects and/or not as effective as once thought... (e.g. Vioxx, Celebrex... both recalled several years after approval).
But, for every drug that isn't effective, or has bad complications, there are dozens that do work. And, many more are found to have other beneficial uses. For example, mucomyst is a drug that was developed to help break up mucous plugs in people's lungs. Then, is was found to work as the antidote for one of the most common and toxic poisonings: tylenol. It's also used to protect people's kidney's during IV contrast injections.
I'm sorry but the anti-pharma, anti-vaccination stuff that flies around the internet is one of the clearest examples of FUD I've seen, and it's very harmful. I've seen a number of people die because they didn't trust medicine and they didn't trust doctors. Please, check what you are saying before someone gets permanently hurt by your ideas.
Key words are ER and Critical Care. That stuff works great and makes progress all the time. It's also somewhat irrelevant to the bulk of medical practice and health care costs, which pertain to chronic conditions and lifestyle disease.
If people don't manage their chronic diseases with medication, where do they end up? The ER.
If a diabetic doesn't take insulin or their anti-high-blood-sugar pills, where do they end up? The ER in a diabetic coma. A daily dose of insulin is like $1 a day. An ER visit/ICU hospitalization for a diabetic coma is around $20-50k depending on the severity.
If an asthmatic doesn't manage their chronic condition with the appropriate inhalers, where do they end up? The ER. IF they let it go too long, they end up on life support in the ICU.
Pneumonia used to be a leading cause of death, now it's not. Why? Antibiotics and oxygen therapy. People used to get polio all the time. I haven't seen an active case of polio every in my 15 year nursing career. Why? The polio vaccine.
The incidence of tetanus has dropped from 600,000 deaths in '92 to less than 150,000 deaths world wide. Why? The tetanus vaccine. Ref: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic574.htm
Please, stop saying the pharmacology doesn't work. It does. It saves lives. Are there problems with the system? Sure. But please stop spreading FUD about "Big Pharma".
I have zero doubt that this is true. I have been around a lot of those medical errors, and I have seen people who have been killed by medical errors and malpractice. It's tragic.
But, just because there are problems, that doesn't mean that the system doesn't work.
In the article that you posted, they mentioned 10's of millions of unnecessary antibiotics. The reason that antibiotics are prescribed for viral infections is twofold. And, it's primarily because people want them. If I take my child who has been sick for 1 week to the ER, spend 3 hours waiting in line for a 5-10 minute visit with an ER doc. I want to go home with a prescription in hand. If not, I'm going to be very angry. So, it's easier for the MD to prescribe an antibiotic than deal with the 5-10 minute conversation convincing the parents that it's only 2008 and we haven't found a cure for the common cold yet.
As for unnecessary medical procedures... That pretty much speaks to 95% of plastic surgery cases and 80% of dermatology practices.
Our society also has very high expectations of the medical community. We used to go to a shaman, priest or pastor when our family was dying and looked for answers or expected miracles. Now, we take then in a ambulance to the hospital and expect answers and miracles from our doctors and medical systems.
Doctors feel those expectations and generally work very hard in very difficult circumstances. They also are trying to make a decent living to pay for the 12-15 years of schooling they suffered through. So, the average MD will work 70-110 hours a week. When you work that much, you're bound to make mistakes.
There's no doubt about it, there are a lot of problems with the system, but that doesn't mean that we should throw the baby out with the bath water.
Tips to getting better health care:
#1 Bar none, go to the rich people's hospital. Go to the neighborhood with the most expensive homes, and find a doctor in that neighborhood. You get much better medical care in those areas because that's where the good doctors go to practice. After working in 35 different hospitals in 15 years, I settled on working at an upper class/upper middle class hospital in Silicon Valley. That was deliberate. I can give better care here than any where else I've ever worked.
it's 1.8% percentage points which is not the same as 1.8% lower chance. It's a 13% lower chance. And that's just from dying. It prevented many others from having a heart attack or stroke which can be pretty bad to.
You can dismiss it if you like, but what these numbers mean in more practical terms is this:
Over 5 years on treatment, it will prevent up to 1 person out of 10 from dying, having a stroke, or heart attack.
And there may be a negative study here or there, but there are many more positive studies. It's like flipping a coin 100 times in a row. There will be times when you get 70 heads, 30 tails, and times you will get 30 heads, and 70 tails. If you do it enough, it will average around 50% heads and tails. This is the "true" result or chance over time of getting heads or tails.
If you do a single study, you might get a negative result (no improvement), if you do another study you might get a really positive result (huge improvement). If you do it enough, the results with trend towards the "true" result... which for statins is that it saves a significant number of lives and prevents heart attacks and strokes in certain patients.
Semantics. I change my odds by 1.8% in the naive assumption that these numbers are applicable to myself at face value. If you like these odds I would like to sell you some lottery tickets.
Your thinking is fundamentally flawed. 1.8 people out of 100 are prevented from dying, and not for free: there are side effects and financial costs. How many died in year six as opposed to year five is also unclear. We're talking about drugs they want to keep people on for the rest of their lives.
The cumulative arithmetic of how many escaped cardiovascular "events" and death cannot be computed clearly from the numbers presented, as you seem to allude.
I agree that the cost is not free. The point being is that these medications do do something. They aren't sugar pills.
You're first assertion was that these medications don't actually do anything. I simply am pointing out they do do something.
It comes at a cost of $$, possible side effects, sure. But if you are arguing that point, then you have to concede that if the price is low enough or the side effects are low enough, then it's worth it.
If it's not personally worth it to you to take the statin because you have side effects from it... that's fine. don't take it. But you can't use it as a blanket to say all medications don't do anything, just because you had a bad experience with one or don't agree with the cost/benefit analysis.
Personally, I'd say 1.8% over five years is nothing, and as I mentioned I've seen the abstract read closer to 0% or -X%. Think of it as 0.36% per year. Expect big lawsuits next decade about the side effects.
> you have to concede that if the price is low enough or the side effects are low enough, then it's worth it.
Not quite so simple, because there are lifestyle treatments that do work and are generally not pursued. The drug options are pursued at the opportunity cost of much more efficacious, much simpler, much less profitable options.
Again, I believe you simply don't understand percentages, or statistics.
The numbers were statistically significant, which means the differences were not likely related to random chance.
The statin prevented 1079 people from having a stroke, dying, or having a heart attack. It helped 10% of the people in a non-trivial way in this study.
(and lifestyle changes are typically pursued alongside these medical treatments. Certainly in these studies, of course your individual doctor's mileage may vary.)
I understand statistics just fine, asshole. You're saying I should bank with XYZ Bank because their savings account interest rate is 100% higher than my current bank! Or, .5% vs 1%. I'm saying the interest rates are .5% and 1% respectively.
As for the 10 out of 100 total winners claim, it looks fudged up to me on quickly scanning the abstract. I'd have to use a calculator and read the study. That cute little bit about a compliance adjustment smells like fudge. And, as I've said, there are other studies with other conclusions.
1) Your continued comments are way off topic. In what way do they relate to doctors being overworked? None that I can see.
2) You really don't seem to have a good grasp of what the statistics are telling you. Take the statins example. As others have tried to explain to you quite politely, the statistical improvement of statins vs placebo are both significant, and even impressive. Your response? 'Asshole'. Nice work.
Nice try, but your argument doesn't hold up for society at large.
It doesn't matter to you as an individual if you are prescribed heart medicine when you need it. However, it truly does save lives in society. How do you propose we scale back the system of medicine? Should doctors no longer prescribe statins?
You have some time now to find those opposing drug study citations. Your claims interest me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter, but the rubber will start hitting the road for me if this conversation progresses from accusations to evidence.
Here's an example of the kind of thing that interests me: a recent meta-study of FDA trials of SSRIs (antidepressants) showed little to no benefit over placebo, below statistical significance in some important cases. So there's a fair chance that most people shouldn't get SSRIs because they just don't work.
"Drug–placebo differences in antidepressant efficacy increase as a function of baseline severity, but are relatively small even for severely depressed patients. The relationship between initial severity and antidepressant efficacy is attributable to decreased responsiveness to placebo among very severely depressed patients, rather than to increased responsiveness to medication."
You have mischaracterized modern medicine. However, preventable medical errors were recently estimated to cause somewhere between 44K - 98K deaths per year in the US. For anyone interested in the details I highly recommend reading the Institute of Medicine report "To Err is Human". http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9728&page=1
There are good potential business opportunities in building automation to reduce errors, however it's still tough to get funding and find customers since the reimbursement system generally isn't structured to pay for error prevention. There was one positive step recently when CMS set a new policy to not pay for fixing preventable care problems. http://www.cms.hhs.gov/apps/media/press/release.asp?Counter=...
