Besides, if anyone's connecting the "red winter hat with a white puff" image with Jesus, Jews or anything of the sort instead of Coca Cola, their marketing department is not doing a good job.
I think we're past the point where it's easy to limit the scope of a message to a specific group, and any message that concerns personal life is just doomed to be an issue in some way.
Nassim Taleb seems to be about companies giving in to the most extreme groups, but I think there will be less and less clear cut cases where a decision can emcompass all groups. For instance for his take on Halal food, some people do choose to not eat Halal. They might be arguably more intolerant that any other group, but not in relevant numbers for any food company to care about them.
I don't think we're going far from the traditional marketing approach of defining a market and playing the trade-off games around each segment's inclinations. Religion and culture just got added to the mix.
>The Santa Hat on vscode insiders and pushing of religion is very offensive to me, additionally xmas has cost millions of Jews their lives over the centuries, yet even if that was not the case, pushing religious symbols as part of a product update is completely unacceptable. Please remove it immediately and make it your top priority. To me this is almost equally offensive as a swastika.
This guy should be banned from the project.
Slap a couple of lawsuits in different jurisdictions for promoting hate speech (for him equating an established religious symbol to the swastika).
Are Santa hats (or Santa) even religious symbols ?
Isn't it just ancient superstition that happens to clash with a christian holiday (that happens to clash with pre christian winter solstice celebrations) ?
At least in scandinavia, xmas is called "Jul", and it just happens that the old norse religion had a winter solstice celebration called Jól, which translates to "Yule" in english, but back then there was no Santa involved.
>Are Santa hats (or Santa) even religious symbols ?
Only tangentially. It has some reference to Saint Nicolaus (a gift bearer), but it was been changed beyond recognition, to a modern half-pagan/nordic, 100%-commercial-soapy tradition.
I mean, christianity might believe in several things, but it doesn't believe in little elves working in South Pole or flying reindeers...
A swastika is an established religious symbol btw. Yeah I know in the West it has unfortunately developed a more unsavory meaning.
It’s almost like people should evaluate the context of a symbol, be it a swastika or Santa hat, before deciding to be outraged but it would be a true Christmas miracle if that ever happened.
While i personally don't take offense at seeing a Swastika "out of context", i know many people do. This however is the first I've heard of people taking offense because of a red top hat, but i guess that's what today's society has come down to. It's almost like people are looking for things that offend them.
Point of information: that’s not the reason or at least not the primary one. Many of the colonies had an established Church and the framers did not want the Federal government impinging on states rights. Eventually all the states did disestablish but the last of those did so years after the constitution was ratified.
I don’t know what any of that has to do with Santa hats. Anecdote time: We are as I mentioned in my other comment Hindus. When my kids were little they were into Christmas as much as any other American children and we followed certain traditions but my daughter in particular was peeved that we never had a Christmas tree. (No ideological reason I just couldn’t be bothered.). Recently she mentioned this to her friend who then gave her a small tree as a present. That friend? A hijab-wearing Algerian Muslim.
I think you left out “can” before lead. I was born and brought up in England where Elizabeth II is, as the coins say, “By Gods Grace Defender of the ((Protestant) Christian) Faith” and I don’t recall anyone including myself being particularly oppressed by the state church. Even the plentiful Atheists where I lived didn’t feel the need to acknowledge it let alone fight.
In 1533 Henry VIII decided he wanted to be head of his own church. The first war about that started the next year.
Protestants and Catholics fought for the next five hundred years, including the English Civil War and the Irish Rebellion.
Around 30% of Ireland's population died or emigrated, which is why there are so many Irish-descended people in North America, Australia, and elsewhere.
There has only been peace between the UK and Ireland since 1998, the Good Friday Agreement.
The religious war is directly responsible for a major issue in Brexit.
Either you lived through this or your parents did.
My parents arrived in the U.K. in the 1960s so no.
Nevertheless I get your point though I must quibble with your specific historical examples. One can argue that it was the King deciding once and for all “This is the way we’re going to worship and the rest of you can all shut up” is what finally (though not immediately) put an end to the religious turmoil. And if the UK had colonized Ireland for secular reasons would it have been any less brutal? Would the Irish have fought back any less?
As an atheist who received a Catholic education, I think calling a Santa hat a religious symbol is a stretch - Saint Nicholas is generally not depicted or described as wearing a "Santa" outfit. It's really more of a Western culture symbol rather than anything.
I agree with the assessment of some of the other posts that the guy who opened the issue is either trolling, or has made an attempt at satire that was taken too seriously.
Santa's red outfit was designed as part of a Coka Cola promotion. So I think the GP is more actuate saying it's a western symbol.
Whether some westerners choose not to celebrate Christmas is kind of moot. I don't celebrate Halloween but there's still no disputing some of the traditions are modern regional twists.
The marketing was aimed directly at the group described by secular Christian, I don't see how the fact that it originated as marketing changes anything.
Santa is more of a US symbol really, other countries have different represenations (Germany for example has baby jesus, literally, and the only reason we have santa is lazy US companies not wanting to reprint)
I don't think they should have backed down, but I understand Microsoft not wanting confrontation or a storm. But if this person is so offended, I imagine that they are constantly and persistently offended while walking the streets, full of similar symbols and seasonal displays.
I'm a staunch atheist but I still appreciate a beautiful mosque, cathedral or fun display.
(And I do find the money that could have been spent on helping others that was used to build cathedrals and palaces to be obnoxious, it's not that I have to have complete respect to accept their existence).
This story frustrated me because it seems like a needless censorship, where it ultimately just stops managers from allowing easter eggs, which used to be such a wonderful part of much software.
Hahahahahaha probably Easter eggs is also going to offend. Ok I'll call them "Cody surprises":-p
Balanced thing would have been to add a config parameter to enable disable this stuff. Can't imagine a lawsuit from something that is user customizable. Some want Easter eggs and others don't.
Of course if your easter eggs slow performance via bug then insta-disable.
It can show up a non intrusive notification to inform you about turning it on/leaving it on vs turning it off just like the data collection notification popups.
But "Easter eggs" are even more religious so that phrase would need to be banned if we are banning everything some random person on the internet finds offensive. Even "holiday" is borderline because it implies a holy day which is also religious. If you give me a few minutes, I can think of a few reasons to ban "decorations" on religious grounds too. I'm an atheist so don't give a fuck if they are banned but I think that should indicate the absurdity of this situation and of even acknowledging the "issue." That's what the close issue is for.
I totally agree, I'm agnostic, I don't believe in deity but not sure we go into total oblivion after death, afterlife can exist without a God in charge of it.
Wife's religious and we have two little ones, I try to focus more on Santa, and still love me some old school Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer and A charlie brown christmas special.
People need to stop with being offended just to 'make a point'. I doubt that he's really as offended as a swastika. I mean there's a major difference between Santa and Nazi's. He's basically a commercialized cartoon character more than a relgious symbol.
As someone who vehemently despises a colleague named cody, I'm remarkably offended you'd dare to associate the wonderful surprise of an unexpected event with such a devious and foul colleague of mine.
They like the power that pretending to be offended gives them. They need that validation, or rush at making the world bend to their unreasonable demands. They is the only "joy" they have in their miserable lives
If I were this person I would invest my time fixing the HTTPS cert on my site[0], instead of focusing on the trivialities of commercial-backed festivities, passing them as religious offences.
> The Santa Hat on vscode insiders and pushing of religion is very offensive to me
Well, If it is "offensive" to you, find the settings button and turn it off. To find everything that you see "offensive" and to demand everyone to cater to your needs sounds like a sense of entitlement if not very draconian.
I had high hopes for Microsoft to resist this nonsense and close politically correct issues like this, but once again, they capitulated to the minority.
> I've also deleted the discussion that does not belong into our issue tracker.
Well done! /s Now the whole context of parts the discussion has now been lost.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf's answer was perfect in that regard, you don't like it that way? Fork it, you have that freedom, or don't use the insiders' version, as far as I know, the public release doesn't have the offensive svastika-like Christmas hat.
My comment wasn't clear as I've mixed VLC and VSCode, what I meant was that the public release of VSCode doesn't have the hat, the complaint was about the insiders' version.
I understand being annoyed by religious symbols, but "it's almost as offensive as a swastika"... that's just immensely callous. Especially from a Jewish perspective.
I’m not a huge fan of Christmas. I say ‘happy holidays’ to try and be more inclusive. I’m atheist and use it as a time to spend time with family and friends.
I’m 100% with you.
Santa is not a religious figure any more, if ever. Is Thor a religious figure?
Looks like MS fell for an individual troll. I think the real story is how companies, as risk averse as they are respond to such cases - I would probably weight the risks and do as MS in such cases.
VLC gets dressed up for the holidays (the traffic cone wears a little hat), but it can be turned off in the settings. Surely making this configurable (even via some arcane non-GUI switch) would have satisfied all parties? Instead the devs of VS Code, who no doubt felt this would be a cute and generally appreciated little token to brighten a dev’s day, will be less inclined to do fun things in the future. Everyone loses.
I think it should be an opt-in not an opt-out. The better way to distribute some holiday cheer would be to release an official VSCode Christmas theme. That way my editor it’s changing its appearance for no reason every year
I must say I'm amused by the reactions here. I realize that the reporter displays a strong reaction to something that seems irrelevant to most people here. Comments then go on to raise concerns of rationality and objectivity.
Yet most discussions I read on here are the exact opposite. They quickly dissolve into unnecessary rabbit holing about some particular niche topic a commenter particularly cares about. Few people complain about these, and many people participate. Most people participating also claim to be "rational" and "objective", yet often know very little of the topic.
I feel this here is the same. People complain that people have feelings, because they feel they are superior by being all "rational". Yet when the next technical discussion comes around, all of this is thrown out of the window because "curly braces go on the next line!!1"..
People have been using all sorts of excuses to visit evil upon another for all of recorded history.
Dig deep enough in history, and you can condemn almost any tradition.
It is senseless to consider ancient history when evaluating modern traditions. What people did hundreds or even thousands of years ago is of historic interest, sure, but it does condemn Christmas today, any more than the slaughter of the Canaanites condemns jews today.
And today, Christmas is a celebration of goodwill and peace to all. That should not offend anyone.
So the objection is against a symbol that is vaguely related to a festival that ties together an enormous number of various otherwise unrelated celebrations (that all happen at or around the winter solstice). The main objection to most of them being that they aren't Jewish (conveniently ignoring the Jewish festival of Hanukkah that occurs at around the same time).
Curiously the article linked that feebly attempts to tie this all together in a coherent narrative fails to mention how the red hat is related to Christmas.
The linked article starts by presenting Saturnalia as a murderous celebration of human sacrifices, for which there is no evidence at all, so it makes me doubt the historical accuracy of the whole piece.
Ya, I browsed through the article and zeroed in on Christmas caroling being related to drunken people running nude through the streets and singing. Was hoping for a fun little anecdote next time someone brought up going Christmas caroling.
But turns out that all seems to be bunk. Caroling seems to be related to the early practice of going door to door as peasants singing and asking for food/gifts from feudal lords... "... so bring us some figgy pudding, and bring it right here."
Current US culture seems to consider how someone feels/perceives an action as a strong indicator that something wrong was done. (Eg: I didn't feel safe in that meeting, I felt uncomfortable by the remark, etc.)
Combine that with a touchy subject like Judaism and the Jewish history (the article linked also throws in mentions of Hitler to invoke some strong reactions) and viola
I don't think anyone necessarily jumps to the conclusion that "something wrong was done". But we have so many professional victims out there (just seems exhausting to have to stay so 'woke' about everything that might offend you) that I think everyone just picks their battles.
Oh, a Santa hat offends you? K, fine, no one really cares if a santa hat is there or not, get rid of it so they can shut up and start looking for something else to be offended by.
60% of the user base didn't know it existed. 25% could have liked it, 14% could have been indifferent. But this one guy is "offended" because Christmas (the celebration of the birth of a Jew named Jesus of Nazareth) "killed the Jews" and poof, it's gone.
This reminds me of Google so many years ago setting Father's Day reminder in people's Gmail.
At some scale, a product can't just be whimsical, or not in any cultural or personally touching way. Boring and impersonal becomes an important virtue.
There's no way this kind of fun initiative won't hit a nerve in some community or some group around the world, and if there's no logical backing behind it's just a PR hell.
However it's important to note the unsaid political point. That society has gone "too far" in being tolerant. Bad-faith actors like this will try to weaponize attitudes of good-faith people to try to turn back social progress.
The linked Sefaria blog post is also complete hogwash! Lord Misrule is a mediaval tradition, it didn't involve brutal murders, "rape and other sexual license; consuming human-shaped biscuits" wtf?
It deeply offends me that people who think they peddle "logic and rationality" can sum religions as "magical sky wizards" and summarily consider their role as detrimental, without understanding their social, cultural, historical, and evolutionary role and development.
> "It smells like a deliberate attempt to make us look bad."
This individual is in Norway and so it seems unlikely that he has anything to do with the culture wars in the US. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." as they say.
But I live in the southern hemisphere and it is summer now. Today it was once of the hottest days in my country's recorded history...
Should I be offended that they are using northern hemisphere iconography? Are Microsoft anti-southern hemisphere?
This reminds me of the Windows Fall Creators Update two years ago, which they are calling the Autumn Creators Update outside of North America, including in the southern hemisphere where it was Spring. Also, no apostrophe. A marketing fail on so many levels.
I don't want decoration on my tools. On the other hand, I prefer tools where the personality of the maker to can still shine through. Today it's just a Santa's hat for which they can't take responsibility. And tomorrow?
I feel like this was really intended to be harmless (it's really not pushed into your face also), people need to be able to let things go.
edit: wait, multiple people is saying he's a troll, is that true?
I swear back in 2012 it was the norm/style to use 4 spaces in Rails...
Edit: Maybe it's PSR2? Or maybe it was one of the dev teams I worked for.. honestly I can't remember why I used that lol. I'm getting senile at 40, I swear.
> To me this is almost equally offensive as a swastika.
Seriously ? Christmas didn't cause the holocaust. Christian idiots who don't know who Christ is or what he taught definitely caused millions of deaths but that's more on their leadership/organized religion.
I'm exmormon, ex-christian. Agnostic, but seriously people need to take a chill pill. Santa's more like Mickey Mouse than a religious figure at this point. Hardly a religious symbol imho. If anything he's a symbol of xmas than christmas.
For me I just treat Christmas like it's Festivus, while my wife and other family celebrate Christmas because that's what they believe. Tolerance goes both ways. This person is as much a hate monger as a Christian hating on Muslim's. It's only offensive because he chooses to be offended by it, just as the religious right chooses to be offended with a transgender person goes into what they deem is 'the wrong' restroom. It's all perception, people need to stop it with being so offended, while at the same time accepting others for who they are obviously.
How did our world get so toxic... Why can't we all just get along?
My explanation is we are all dead and in a level of hell that looks just like the life we left. And the Devil is slowly changing things to fuck with us until we realize we are in hell.
I believe the person who started this is just a bad actor.
Surely he must have known that this will only lead to more outrage and hatred.
Now we need to have the whole "war on xmas" and "political correctness gone crazy" debates, just because there is one idiot out there that people decided to listen to instead of ignore.
I don’t think the Santa hat belongs in VSCode, but not for the reasons outlined in this issue. I don’t want my editor changing its UI every for the holidays
Yikes. I'm Jewish, non-religious. This guy is absolutely crazy.
Do I personally like Christmas? No. Do I like having it shoved down my throat every time I go to get groceries? No.
Do I like it when some people seem to get offended when I tell them I don't celebrate Christmas? No.
But to compare it to swatztikas and the Holocaust is ludicrous. (And as a person with grandparents who went through the holocaust, this is deeply offensive- don't cheapen the memory of the holocaust with BS.)
Calling Hannukah "Jewish Christmas" is pretty offensive,but a little hat which has it's origins in a Coca-Cola commercial is not.
Microsoft has done the right thing here. The non-issue could be created an issue of. Who'd want the negative PR.
That being said, it's prudent not to add the most common religious or cultural symbols for a global product. If you cater to one, you'll be expected to do the same for other cultural rituals.
> To me this is almost equally offensive as a swastika.
This seems quite ignorant of history coming from a Norwegian. The red "santa hat" was a symbol of resistance during WWII, so much that it was actually banned by the Nazis/collaborator government for a time.
It may or may not be a troll, but that is irrelevant as to what makes this situation interesting: the fact that Microsoft caved in to such an incontrovertibly unreasonable request.
And it kinda seems to be blowing up. They removed a shitton of comments, closed several related issues and now new bugs are being made because of this. I can only hope there is massive resitence against this.
...actually 4chan regularly runs things remarkably close with this. Sometimes they _accidentally_ turn a previously innocuous symbol into hate speech (see: "okay" gesture, welcome to 2019, where seeing someone making it makes you go and check if they're just not extremely online or actually a nazi), most of the time they just announce to the world they hang out on 4chan. The examples of less successful would be several spoof LGBT rights campaigns for, uh, unpleasant things.
Yeah, I'm still not convinced if this guy is for real. But that's besides the point - them caving in to this insane demand on the spot is incredible. What's next - a word filter so I can't type "sjw" in VSCode? Seriously rethinking my decision to switch to this. This screams instability.
Don't panic. They're sheltered developers in a megacorp, it's most likely it's the first time they've encountered a 4chan psyop (or whatever tf this is), if they'd hear the term "nazbol" they'd probably think it's something about sports. And honestly, consider how that would go if this is a 4chan psyop: next time someone on the team says or does something genuinely horrible and gets fired, they'll have a few hundred cloned accounts calling them hypocritical antisemites.
While I agree with some points made here in comments, I wonder what would be the reaction of people calling this "pathetic" if they added a crescent moon for muslim holidays?
Christmas isn't really a Christian festival any more. I mean technically it never was (Yule is a pagan thing) but even the later amendment of the Christ metaphor has nothing to do with Santa and nor does the modern depiction of Santa have any relation to the original heritage of the character (we have Coka Cola to thank for that).
That all said, I'd welcome a crescent moon and any other imagery too. I don't see the issue in celebrating festivals -- which themselves are intended to be a celebration. Tolerance should be about acceptence other festivals not censorship of them.
