Honestly? I don't really care what the constitution says, I think it makes way more sense for our government to have a blacklist of laws they can pass rather than a whitelist.
That said though, I acknowledge that you're right. Fortunately for me, the courts seem to disagree :-)
It only makes sense if you support Authoritarian governments and oppose liberty for individuals
Granting the government unlimited authority then "blacklisting" only come things is a recipe for abuse, which is what we have today if you are a person that believes in individualist freedoms
it is a fundamental difference as to who is the master and who is the servant, you believe the people are subverted to the government. I believe like our founders that We the people are the masters, I believe in self-governance, I believe in Self Ownership, I believe in liberty. it is sad we as a society has lost respect for indivualism and liberty
The 10th amendment which you referred to limits federal powers, but not state powers.
What in the Constitution (before 1865) prevents the US states from each being authoritarian governments?
For example, the original constitution allowed each state to have an established religion. Up until 1824, Massachusetts residents were required to attend the parish church. That's hardly respect for individualism and liberty.
And of course the US Constitution didn't respect 'Self Ownership' until at least the 13th Amendment (for black males), nor the 'liberty' of women to vote until least the 19th Amendment.
When did the Constitution ever respect the individualism and liberty of Native Americans?
And on the topic of liberty - racists in the 1960s wanted the 'liberty' to reject black customers (just like homophobes want the 'liberty' to reject gay customers) and considered it a Constitutionally protected right.
Is that part of the respect for liberty you think we have lost?
Pardon me for interrupting the debate between you gentlemen. I thought I'd toss in a couple cents.
The constitution was never fully agreed upon in spirit. It was "these are the rules we agree upon in TEXT", but each man had his own ideas, and they figured it'd be better to let it slide and figure out the meanings later. However, I'm pretty sure, given they were fighting a revolution, the founding fathers had no intention of letting in too much federal government control. They would be appalled by what they see today. Remember that they chose the Articles of Confederation first.
In short, nobody - even the founding fathers - have ever fully agreed upon the meaning of the Constitution. So to say, "The Constitution only limits federal powers, but not state powers." is just as much opinion as "The 10th amendment limits both state and federal powers".
However, in response to you're arguments specifically, eesmith: Given that the average demographic on HN tends to oppose government surveillance, it seems rather nonsequitor that they would continue to give the gov power over such necessary things as maps, esp considering what the gov could do with that. The fact is, if you don't draw the line of power somewhere, it'll continue to be pushed back for further loss of liberty for the AVERAGE individual.
Also, "Native Americans" were not American citizens, so they weren't entitled to the same treatment under law. No offense, but law isn't "fair to all people".
I don't understand your second paragraph. The Treaty of Paris (1783) ended the revolutionary battle. The first draft of the Constitution wasn't until 1787, so none of the framers or signers of the Constitution were fighting a revolution at that time.
(Also: "Founding Father" is an ambiguous term, and I dont see the relevancy.")
Nor do I understand your third paragraph. Barron v. Baltimore (1833) established that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the state governments. This wasn't changed until the incorporation of the Bill of Rights starting with the 13th Amendment, in 1865.
Thus, the pre-1865 interpretation of the Constitution was, from what I understand, almost exactly what I wrote, at least as regards the hypothetical creation of an authoritarian state government.
Nor do I understand your 4th paragraph vis-a-vis 'power over such necessary things as maps'. My view is that of asark, many levels up: "The data and basic API should at least come from a government source, I'd say. Let companies but whatever sugar they want on top of that". That is, there's NOAA and there are private meteorology companies.
Regarding Native Americans, I'll point to how the Commerce Clause could have defined Indian Tribes as being foreign states. Instead, in Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831), the Court decided that the correct Constitution interpretation was as a "domestic dependent nation[s]" ... "Their relation to the United States resembles that of a ward to his guardian."
So no, they weren't entitled to the same rights as US citizens. But they also weren't entitled to the same rights as foreign countries. How does that result in the sorts of self-governance that syshum desires?
And it's not like the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 made all of these issues disappear.
> The Treaty of Paris (1783) ended the revolutionary battle.
You took me literally there. I meant the PAST tense, but it seems I wrote the present active tense of "fight".
> Nor do I understand your third paragraph
It's opinion. That's my point. Nothing more.
> Nor do I understand your 4th paragraph vis-a-vis 'power over such necessary things as maps'. ... "The data and basic API should at least come from a government source, I'd say. Let companies but whatever sugar they want on top of that".
No, this is a bad idea. Sugar is just sugar, it's not control. When the government has control over access to information or channels to information, they get to manipulate the flow of info.
For the sake of over simplicity (to make my point VERY clear), we might have an API that looks like this:
- getKey()
- getWeather(Key)
- getNewWeather(Key)
Now suppose everyone knows function "getWeather" is more accurate than "getNewWeather". Naturally, they want to use "getWeather". But then some bureaucrat decides they need to manipulate the weather forecast to explain the downing of a helicopter (shot down by secret forces) or divert people away from driving near a secret airplane part that landed in the road. In other words, the gov would like to control what kind of weather people receive, so they tell everyone that getNewWeather is now an alias for getWeather and getKey now only returns a valid key for getNewWeather. Congratulations, the gov now controls the weather.
> Regarding Native Americans.... So no, they weren't entitled to the same rights as US citizens. But they also weren't entitled to the same rights as foreign countries. How does that result in the sorts of self-governance that syshum desires?
That's not what I was interpreting you arguing for. You said, "When did the Constitution ever respect the individualism and liberty of Native Americans?" Which I was saying, "It doesn't," and which you seem to agree with me by saying "they weren't entitled to the same rights as US citizens". The fact that some judge muddied the waters of "citizen" and "foreigner" is some leftover problem from a bygone era.
At this point, I think we have different understandings as to what we're arguing. I wanted to reply (as anyone likes to do), but perhaps it's best to stop. My fault for butting in.
My point is that the opinion of the US Supreme Court has far more of an impact than simply saying it's an opinion.
"When the government has control over access to information or channels to information, they get to manipulate the flow of info."
And when private industry has control over access it's better?
In any case, I am describing what we have now, with public service and private services. The private services are able to use the public information, and add their own observations, modeling, etc.
I can't think of any system which could prevent your (IMHO movie) scenarios. I mean, in real cases where secret planes crash and parts are everywhere, they don't do that now. And it seems pointless as most people don't drive/navigate that way.
"some leftover problem from a bygone era."
Recall that syshum wrote "it is sad we as a society has lost respect for indivualism and liberty".
I am not talking about States at all, States are governed by their own constitutions.
Nor I am talking about the 10th amendment, while ti does play a part so to the Body of the Constitution, which Article one Section 8 provides a list of powers granted to the Federal Government, and the 9th amendment also plays a role, many people forget about the 9th
Further you are simply proving Madison correct, Madison was opposed to the bill of rights because he believed they were unnessarty and a danger. the first 10 amendments forbid the government from doing things they did not have any power to do in the first place. Madison correctly observed that by including them it would give the appearance of enumerated rights, it would give people like you the idea that if it was not forbidden by the bill of rights then it was fair game.
>What in the Constitution (before 1865) prevents the US states from each being authoritarian governments?
Their own individual constitutions, which each state has some better than others, most are not followed as written just like the Federal Constitution is not
>>And on the topic of liberty - racists in the 1960s wanted the 'liberty' to reject black customers
Well that is revisionist history, Jim Crow laws where government mandates not voluntary actions by individuals
>just like homophobes want the 'liberty' to reject gay customers) and considered it a Constitutionally protected right.
Freedom of Association is an important right. The proper response to those businesses it to boycott and create competing for a business to drive them out, not to force them to transact with you. I have never really understood why people support that. If there is a business that hates me I would rather they were upfront about it so I can give my money to a business that wants me as a customer, I do not need the government to force them to do business with me, which they will likely give me poor service and I will walk away with a product or service I am not satisfied with
The problem with the Jim Crow area was segregation was mandated by government and no boycotts or competing businesses were possible
>Is that part of the respect for liberty you think we have lost?
Entire Books have been written on the liberty we have lost, from the War on Drugs to the War on Terror, to countless other actions by the government to chip chip chip away at liberty in the name of Safety or "For the children" or countless other justifications
You write "Nor I am talking about the 10th amendment".
Earlier you wrote "if the Constitution does not Grant the power to the Government then that power is Reserved for the States and the people".
That looks very much like the 10th Amendment, so how are you not talking about that amendment?
You interpret my views as: "it would give people like you the idea that if it was not forbidden by the bill of rights then it was fair game"
That is not my position. Privacy is not an enumerated right. I think there is an unenumerated right to privacy.
Since your summary of my views is not my views, I think you do not understand my position.
You write "Their own individual constitutions" prevented the US states from each being authoritarian governments.
What specifically of those constitutions prevented authoritarian governments?
How were many of the US state constitutions not authoritarian governments with respect to the rights of black people? In addition to slavery, I'll point to the Oregon constitution, which stated "No negro, Chinaman or mullato shall have the right of suffrage".
You write "Well that is revisionist history".
Pardon? You think the support for racial discrimination in the US was only based on Jim Crow laws, and required the support of the government to enforce?
> There were white business owners who claimed that Congress did not have the constitutional authority to ban segregation in public accommodations. For example, Moreton Rolleston, the owner of a motel in Atlanta, Georgia, said he should not be forced to serve black travelers, saying, "the fundamental question [...] is whether or not Congress has the power to take away the liberty of an individual to run his business as he sees fit in the selection and choice of his customers".
Should Rolleston have had the liberty to reject black customers?
You viewpoint seems to be that if there weren't government laws supporting segregation, then there wouldn't have been a problem. But ... there were. The state constitutions allowed it. Hence the ridiculousness of only considering authoritarianism on the federal level.
You write "Entire Books have been written on the liberty we have lost", but I don't think you've grasped my question. I'll try again.
Earlier you wrote "it is sad we as a society has lost respect for indivualism and liberty".
This suggests that there was some point where we had respect for individualism and liberty.
When was this point?
Was it when we had slaves? Is it when women didn't have the right to vote? Is it when Native Americans were treated as wards of the government?
I fully agree that the War on Drugs is one of many things to "chip away at liberty". But we've also added to liberty. Your statement suggests that there was a lost golden era of liberty, which I strongly reject .. unless you were a rich, white, land-owning Protestant man.
When did we have respect for individualism and liberty?
For starters, our government is elected by the people and so regardless of what we allow them to do, as long as it doesn't affect the ability of people to fairly vote for their representation, they'll ultimately be accountable to the people. You may not agree with what the majority of people want, but that's different than saying "the people" are subservient.
Additionally, I believe that you can carve out enough forbidden legislation to satisfy almost any desired level of personal freedom by carving out wide categories of things that can't be legislated.
>> our government is elected by the people and so regardless of what we allow them to do, as long as it doesn't affect the ability of people to fairly vote for their representation
It is though? I make the case that is not. A large amount of the population is disenfranchised either legally or by virtue of not having any person they feel represents them due to the nature of the 2 party system
The vast majority of people that do vote today are voting AGAINST someone, i.e "I don't like Trump but I really do not like Clinton" or "I do not like Clinton but I really do not like Trump"
The way our elections are held is a farce and more people every year are simply opting at believing it is a waste of time, and a few studies show it is a waste of time as the politicians do not really listen to the will of the people anyway
There are multiple ways to improve the system. Doing away with First Past the post voting would go along way. I also support removing party affiliation from the ballot. People need to vote for individuals not parties
I have other but none of them will ever be enacted
That said though, I acknowledge that you're right. Fortunately for me, the courts seem to disagree :-)