It's not just a standard extradition agreement like existing ones made with other countries.
With Hong Kong under China's foot, there is a grave risk that any -unverifiable- trumped up charge made in the Mainland against dissidents and those voicing discontent against the Chinese government would result in potential extradition to China, a country that has no rule of law and where torture is routine (China is 82/126 in the latest Rule of Law Index[1]. HK is 16/126).
The HK government tried to assuage the critics by including some safeguards that would require the crime to be serious enough to require at least 7 years of imprisonment for the extradition to be processed, but voicing criticism of the Chinese government is considered a crime against national security in China...
There is little doubt that at some point these types of requests will be made and this new rule is opening Pandora's box wide.
Hong Kong is a great place, with great people who basically have little to hope for as the little freedom they had is getting eroded day by day.
China advises against the western views on separation of powers. This alone should ring alarms bells.
I mean, the reality is Hong Kong’s “autonomy” only exists because Beijing allows it. I guess it means something that so many people still show up despite the “futility” of it.
A sovereign nation stays sovereign not because it can defend itself, or because of the treaties it has in place, but rather because of the way the people there delineate the mental boundary between “us” and “them.” The government of a country can sign away every legal element of there being an independent country, and yet still not destroy the sovereignty of the nation of people that exists there. Before and after legal annexation, it’s still just as hard to absorb that “country” into your own, because the legality of doing so was never the blocker.
Empires want productive colonies. They don’t go around conquering land just to kick everyone who lives there off and move their own citizens there. They want to capture the GDP of the existing nation-of-people, and have that GDP become part of their aggregate GDP, advancing their ends. So empires are unwilling to do anything to conquer a nation-of-people that destroys their GDP in the process. They don’t want to start with a first-world neighbour and end up with a third-world satellite.
And nations-of-people, who actively resist thinking of themselves as part of a given empire, when the order comes down to work toward that empire’s ends—they’ll just not work. They know they might be sent to “labor camps” in said empire, to get a little productivity out of them—but they also know that this is still a destruction of economic value from the empire’s perspective, since they were doing labor before which had far more economic value than the labor the empire can coerce out of them in a labor camp. So they know that, by and large, the empire won’t bother to do this. They might try doing it a few times, as a terrorist tactic to scare the nation-of-people into compliance... but they don’t want to actually do enough damage to the GDP of the annexed state to matter.
Or, to put that another way: a nation-of-people under annexation is like a city made of glass, under siege (where “made of glass” refers here to both the city and its people.) Sure, anyone could just go in and break all the glass, if they wanted the city wiped off the map. But—at least in the modern geopolitical landscape—there’s no reason to want to. Everyone wants to capture the city. And that’s basically impossible by military means, because the military tools empires have available to them are designed to shatter glass. They’ll end up with a big heap of nothing, rather than a city. The only way to make the city yours is to just convince its citizens that they want to work for you.
And, if an empire is in a negotiation at that level, they’re essentially back to negotiating with a peer sovereign nation. They can’t truly dictate law or custom, because the citizens (as-yet unintegrated, still thinking of the empire as “them” rather than “us”) won’t work under those conditions, and there’s no way to force them to do so without killing the golden goose.
——
China is in a holding pattern with Hong Kong. They think they can, through secular drift, get future generations to think of themselves as just “Chinese”—to think of the Chinese empire as “us” rather than “them.” At that point, the game is won, and China can enforce whatever laws and customs they like on Hong Kong.
But until that point—and, perhaps, that point may never come, if the citizens of Hong Kong continue to raise their children to see themselves as “citizens of Hong Kong” first-and-foremost—China can only put in place such laws and practices as the citizens of Hong Kong will tolerate.
Great point regarding GDP. Vox did a piece[1] that pointed out that with the recent rise of highly economically productive cities in the mainland like Shenzhen, the mainland is getting more emboldened in projecting its control over HK.
I'm at the event right now, was waiting for 4 hours in Victoria park before finally started moving. People are very peaceful and non aggressive, and I'm not sure this strategy will work.
Extradition to China is basically extradition to North Korea, a lawless country with no police, no courts and no justice.
Eventually this will extend to crimes like using a VPN and operating a group chat, not to mention the threat to businesses, journalists and lawyers.
I imagine if my startup refuses to provide data to mainland China, I could be held without court at an undisclosed location for as long as needed.
To be exact, China has police (serving Communist Party), has court (highly bias toward plaintiffs who have power), and has justice (the Communist version of justice).
I think that is really a new break as anyone can be pull back to china. Including any foreigner. China has no rule of law. No human rights or at lest right in court.
Can't believe this makes it to HN, although I feel politics is off topic I can't help but to feed to this because it means so much to me.
Over a million people, or 1 out of 5-7 people walked out against this tighten grip. The whole Hong Kong island is dead lock now. China has been subtly (or so much with this attempt) trying to erode our freedom, rule of law and culture.
Shamefully I'm not physically in Hong Kong. Thank you for your effort, that's the least I could do.
Not sure that turnout is over a million. Even HKFP are being cautious and only switched from “tens” to “hundreds” of thousands about an hour ago. I do hope that you are right though! And even 1 in 10 or 15 would be remarkable.
Edit: the SCMP has some turnout figures. As usual they vary wildly.¹
I just gathered it from live video, local forum posts, news and my intuition of the size of Hong Kong island (it's all full with people still being stuck in the train system from Kowloon side). From images, it's also visually much bigger than the previous ~500K turnout protest.
But yeah it's intuition after all so I could be wrong.
Still, numbers in the 60K range is just impossible.
Edit: By gather and intuition, I mean I'm getting quite a volume of confirmation bias from forum post, video comments and the hosts of the protest.
One of the pan-dems doubts it’s more than the aftermath of 6/4 which was ~a million, but the opening of all the roads etc. suggests more than the art. 23 protests, yes.
Hong kong is the least independent in a group of regions like mongolia or taiwan that China all lays claim to. It's an interesting lithmus test for their future behaviour in those regions. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/ROC_Admi...
It is worth noting that the ROC’s claims in Mongolia don’t reflect any ambition either from the Taiwanese or the Chinese to seize Mongolia; the ROC simply claims them because it used to a long time ago and for diplomatic reasons is not altering those claims.
It's not just a standard extradition agreement like existing ones made with other countries.
With Hong Kong under China's foot, there is a grave risk that any -unverifiable- trumped up charge made in the Mainland against dissidents and those voicing discontent against the Chinese government would result in potential extradition to China, a country that has no rule of law and where torture is routine (China is 82/126 in the latest Rule of Law Index[1]. HK is 16/126).
The HK government tried to assuage the critics by including some safeguards that would require the crime to be serious enough to require at least 7 years of imprisonment for the extradition to be processed, but voicing criticism of the Chinese government is considered a crime against national security in China...
There is little doubt that at some point these types of requests will be made and this new rule is opening Pandora's box wide.
Hong Kong is a great place, with great people who basically have little to hope for as the little freedom they had is getting eroded day by day.
China advises against the western views on separation of powers. This alone should ring alarms bells.
Loud ones.
[1]: http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/